Covid-19

[17to85]

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Actually, it's all of that. An ignorant opinion should be both shouted down and questioned.

No you don't shout it down, that just makes people dig in and get defensive about their position and shut off to reason. You have to get them to explore why they believe what they do because change only happens from within. A person has to want to find the correct answer, and you are more likely to get them there by engaging them as opposed to just trying to silence them. 

It's also good to do these exercises to re-assess why we believe things ourselves. Everyone believes they're informed and correct, but we all need to make sure we're not just swallowing whatever point of view we happen to initially agree with. It all needs to be help up to a critical light. 

[Wideleft]

22 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

No you don't shout it down, that just makes people dig in and get defensive about their position and shut off to reason. You have to get them to explore why they believe what they do because change only happens from within. A person has to want to find the correct answer, and you are more likely to get them there by engaging them as opposed to just trying to silence them. 

It's also good to do these exercises to re-assess why we believe things ourselves. Everyone believes they're informed and correct, but we all need to make sure we're not just swallowing whatever point of view we happen to initially agree with. It all needs to be help up to a critical light. 

I think this is becoming less and less valid as social media has been taken over by bots, troll armies and bored unhappy men with mental defects not covered by pharmacare.  I do however find this approach absolutely valid and even enjoyable in a face to face discussion.

Totally agree with the second paragraph and when you do it enough, it doesn't take long to figure out who is debating in bad faith and therefore wasting your time.

[pigseye]

31 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

No you don't shout it down, that just makes people dig in and get defensive about their position and shut off to reason. You have to get them to explore why they believe what they do because change only happens from within. A person has to want to find the correct answer, and you are more likely to get them there by engaging them as opposed to just trying to silence them. 

It's also good to do these exercises to re-assess why we believe things ourselves. Everyone believes they're informed and correct, but we all need to make sure we're not just swallowing whatever point of view we happen to initially agree with. It all needs to be help up to a critical light. 

So is the polarization of the left and right a construct of foreign influence, Russia, China, N Korea and other countries that want to tear the west apart from within? Isn't shouting each other down exactly what they want us to do.

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

The way to get people to stop holding ignorant views isn't to try and shout them down, it's to question them on their beliefs and don't let them give non answers. Why do you believe this? Provide rational and proof for your claims. 

One of two things will happen. They will either develop some self awareness and repent their sinner ways, or they'll just shut up about it. 

Disagree. There are fundamental differences between left and right-wing adherents. When left-wingers are confronted with evidence that their faith in their beliefs or leaders is misplaced, they will either go silent or change their opinions- usually the latter. When the same happens to right-wing people, they will typically assume it to be a personal attack and either become more rigid or extreme in their beliefs. Typically, they have rigid ideation and closed to new ideas, even if it means that they will suffer for it. They assume that this suffering makes them more worthy and direct resentment and anger at whoever or whatever challenges their belief system.

[Wideleft]

2 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Disagree. There are fundamental differences between left and right-wing adherents. When left-wingers are confronted with evidence that their faith in their beliefs or leaders is misplaced, they will either go silent or change their opinions- usually the latter. When the same happens to right-wing people, they will typically assume it to be a personal attack and either become more rigid or extreme in their beliefs. Typically, they have rigid ideation and closed to new ideas, even if it means that they will suffer for it. They assume that this suffering makes them more worthy and direct resentment and anger at whoever or whatever challenges their belief system.

There have been clinical studies including brain scans that support this.

[17to85]

13 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Disagree. There are fundamental differences between left and right-wing adherents. When left-wingers are confronted with evidence that their faith in their beliefs or leaders is misplaced, they will either go silent or change their opinions- usually the latter. When the same happens to right-wing people, they will typically assume it to be a personal attack and either become more rigid or extreme in their beliefs. Typically, they have rigid ideation and closed to new ideas, even if it means that they will suffer for it. They assume that this suffering makes them more worthy and direct resentment and anger at whoever or whatever challenges their belief system.

and you wonder why people think you can't reason with them. 

There is an awful lot of intolerance from the left. Instead of dismissing people you need to engage with them. Easier to be a condescending ass on the internet though so that's what a lot of people default to these days. 

[Tracker]

 

 

 

                   I've become so bored with staying home, I've begun drinking brake fluid.

 

 

                   But I can stop any time I want to.

[Wideleft]

3 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

and you wonder why people think you can't reason with them. 

There is an awful lot of intolerance from the left. Instead of dismissing people you need to engage with them. Easier to be a condescending ass on the internet though so that's what a lot of people default to these days. 

Hehehe....

[Tracker]

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

and you wonder why people think you can't reason with them. 

There is an awful lot of intolerance from the left. Instead of dismissing people you need to engage with them. Easier to be a condescending ass on the internet though so that's what a lot of people default to these days. 

You are assuming that they are open to changing their minds, and the great majority are not- I have several of these in my extended family. when they forward tripe to me from say, The Rebel News website and I bother to send them links to credible sources that refute their beliefs, they just become annoyed, restate their beliefs and then say something along the lines of ,"well, that's your opinion". A total waste of time.

[pigseye]

Just now, Tracker said:

You are assuming that they are open to changing their minds, and the great majority are not- I have several of these in my extended family. when they forward tripe to me from say, The Rebel News website and I bother to send them links to credible sources that refute their beliefs, they just become annoyed, restate their beliefs and then say something along the lines of ,"well, that's your opinion". A total waste of time.

So shouting them down is the answer then? 

[do or die]

Well, my addiction to gin, has saved me from ingesting anything that might do me harm.....while reading this forum

Edited May 12, 2020 by do or die

[Wideleft]

The headline is horribly optimistic and the author (who has a credible background as an investigative journalist) is a little too sure of her findings given that this is yet to be proven, but the article is sourced sufficiently to suggest that COVID-19 may have arisen from the trade in bat guano.

COVID-19 Origin Mystery Solved

May 7, 2020

By: @MsAmyMacPherson

Part of the challenge in finding a cure for the COVID-19 pandemic is determining the original source of infection. The majority of scientists are convinced it came from bats, but they don’t yet know how it transmitted to humans. Others suggest it was caused by accidental release from a research lab, while war hawks propose theories that relate to a bioweapon. But the best answer to complex mysteries is often simple and Free The Press Canada has determined the likely culprit.

The solution for this missing link is so unassuming that it was under everyone’s nose all along. The records have existed since the 1700’s and this bat-to-human conduit is cited as the legal basis for the American Empire. It’s the original cause of blackbirding (kidnapping) and Chinese slavery, Indigenous slavery, as well as Black slavery, in case anyone didn’t grasp the meaning of that famous Beatles song. It solidified Peru’s existence and reshaped entire countries in South America. It poured the foundation for British and European wealth. It won and lost wars as a prime ingredient to make gunpowder. Its Indigenous name appears in an early American law and it traces all the way back to 5,000 years ago, as a resource worshipped by the Incas.

Today this product is exported by Africa and Asia and it can fetch as much as $350USD per ton, or $2,400USD every three hours with a very small crew of labourers. The organic food revolution, hydroponic agriculture, and the legalization of marijuana have made it so popular again that western grandmothers are trying to produce their own. The colloquial phrase ‘bat-****-crazy’ may even be derived from this common carrier of several coronavirus types. So what could be in everyone’s garden shed that has the potential to elevate or wipe out the human race, depending on the quality of each batch?

https://freethepresscanada.org/2020/05/07/covid-19-origin-mystery-solved/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[pigseye]

woops

Edited May 12, 2020 by pigseye
p

[pigseye]

39 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

and you wonder why people think you can't reason with them. 

There is an awful lot of intolerance from the left. Instead of dismissing people you need to engage with them. Easier to be a condescending ass on the internet though so that's what a lot of people default to these days. 

I've tried every approach, you are wasting your breath. 

[Tracker]

 

 

 

                                                     

[The Unknown Poster]

20 minutes ago, pigseye said:

I've tried every approach, you are wasting your breath. 

You cant see reality through your orange goggles.  If you cant see the problem here is you, then you're a lost cause unfortunately.

[pigseye]

23 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

You cant see reality through your orange goggles.  If you cant see the problem here is you, then you're a lost cause unfortunately.

Then why is 17to85 getting the same response? Shout them down, we won't discuss it. 

At least you take the time to show me the errors of my ways, isn't that the whole point of discussion? 

[The Unknown Poster]

6 minutes ago, pigseye said:

Then why is 17to85 getting the same response? Shout them down, we won't discuss it. 

At least you take the time to show me the errors of my ways, isn't that the whole point of discussion? 

I think the point of discussion is either like minded people engaging in a discussion about a subject that interests them or those who are not like minded engaging in a debate about their point, hopefully open-mindedly.  But you've shown zero propensity to be open minded at all.  You're fully on the Trump crazy train.   Also, let me be clear that not every opposing view is worthy if debate or discussion.  Aligned values with sexual abusers, racists etc are not open to "difference of opinion".  In my opinion.

[The Unknown Poster]

I wonder if there will be a race by cities or states to declare themselves open to lure major league sports.  We'd heard that Arizona was one of the places considered for some of these leagues to play...this makes that easier.

[The Unknown Poster]

I laughed. 
 

 

[Mr Dee]

 

[Tracker]

Team Trump Pushes CDC to Revise Down Its COVID Death Counts

The president and members of his task force are skeptical of the numbers and want the methodology changed.

Erin Banco
National Security Reporter
Asawin Suebsaeng
White House Reporter
Updated May. 13, 2020 9:52AM ET / Published May. 13, 2020 3:53AM ET 
President Donald Trump and members of his coronavirus task force are pushing officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to change how the agency works with states to count coronavirus-related deaths. And they’re pushing for revisions that could lead to far fewer deaths being counted than originally reported, according to five administration officials working on the government’s response to the pandemic.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-trump-pushes-cdc-to-dial-down-covid-death-counts

[pigseye]

12 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Team Trump Pushes CDC to Revise Down Its COVID Death Counts

The president and members of his task force are skeptical of the numbers and want the methodology changed.

Erin Banco
National Security Reporter
Asawin Suebsaeng
White House Reporter
Updated May. 13, 2020 9:52AM ET / Published May. 13, 2020 3:53AM ET 
President Donald Trump and members of his coronavirus task force are pushing officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to change how the agency works with states to count coronavirus-related deaths. And they’re pushing for revisions that could lead to far fewer deaths being counted than originally reported, according to five administration officials working on the government’s response to the pandemic.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-trump-pushes-cdc-to-dial-down-covid-death-counts

Interesting read, I found this,

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/17/fact-check-covid-19-death-toll-likely-undercounted-not-overcounted/2973481001/

 

[Tracker]

Leaked White House data shows infections spiking more than 1,000% in rural areas that backed Trump
Trump claims cases are falling everywhere. An unreleased task force report shows massive spikes in the heartland

 
IGOR DERYSH  MAY 12, 2020 9:49PM (UTC)
A leaked unreleased White House coronavirus task force report showing cases spiking in areas across the country has undercut President Donald Trump's claim that cases are declining across the nation.

"You know, the numbers are coming down very rapidly all throughout the country, by the way," Trump declared at a Monday news conference. "There may be one exception, but all throughout the country, the numbers are coming down rapidly."

This is, of course, not true. Though cases are decreasing in 14 states, they are rising in nine states, according to The New York Times. A lack of widespread testing in 27 other states, plus Washington and Puerto Rico, suggests that cases in those areas are being undercounted.

But a leaked coronavirus task force report obtained by NBC News shows that some parts of the country — rural counties in Tennessee and Kansas — have seen cases balloon by more than 1,000% in a matter of one week. Other counties in Missouri, Nebraska, Minnesota and Wisconsin saw increases of more than 400%.

Dr. John Ross, a professor at Harvard Medical School, pointed out that all but one of the top 10 counties that saw the largest increases voted for President Donald Trump in 2016.

https://www.salon.com/2020/05/12/leaked-white-house-data-shows-infections-spiking-more-than-1000-in-rural-areas-that-backed-trump/

[17to85]

You know if Trump spent as much time actually trying to address the pandemic as he did trying to game the numbers maybe the numbers wouldn't be such a problem. 

Guy is just such a world class idiot. Thinks he's still on reality TV where you can make reality whatever you want it to be.