Covid-19

[17to85]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Twisting oneself into a pretzel to basically say "its just the flu, should never have closed anything, so what if old people die" is really a poor use of ones time.  Especially using hindsight as if it's foresight.  Not tagging anyone specific.  Just sayin' 😉

This is what I am trying to grapple with as I see these kinds of reactions on social media... Like is it a combination of people not understanding what was going on and what has gone on since? I refuse to believe anyone can be that ignorant.... 

[Wideleft]

2 hours ago, Floyd said:

You missed all the 'well that's natural selection' comments when the Trumpers were protesting their right to freedom of movement (what I call the haircut protests) and not social distancing...  no one stopped and said 'wow I really hope they are okay they are just protesting for what they believe in'...  we laughed about them possibly dying because they don't believe in the same things we do

I'm interested in your angle - it just seems strange that you would want me to start all posts with 'my condolences'...  Empathy is usually saved for real life not a football forum - especially not this one 

But I will be clear - I think online empathy and causes are bogus and typing/sharing 'thoughts and prayers' is pretty lame

I think trying to educate people that covid really is primarily a nursing home issue does more to help people than just saying home and typing 'my condolences'...  I mean Ottawa just approved the sale of a Canadian nursing home chain to a sh*tty Chineses corporation - obviously the message is not sinking in

 

I hate to pile on, but this is simply not true.  It's a nursing home issue, it's a health worker issue, it's a meat packing plant issue, it's a poverty issue, it's a homeless issue etc. etc.  I don't know if anyone has heard the term "long-haulers" yet, but it's a group of people who have suffered with symptoms too mild for hospital treatment, but too severe to function on a day to day basis - for weeks and months.  Because they haven't been hospitalized (or in some cases, diagnosed), the statistics don't include them.

COVID-19 Can Last for Several Months

The disease’s “long-haulers” have endured relentless waves of debilitating symptoms—and disbelief from doctors and friends.

• Story by Ed Yong
• JUNE 4, 2020

Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here.

For vonny leclerc, day one was March 16.

Hours after British Prime Minister Boris Johnson instated stringent social-distancing measures to halt the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, LeClerc, a Glasgow-based journalist, arrived home feeling shivery and flushed. Over the next few days, she developed a cough, chest pain, aching joints, and a prickling sensation on her skin. After a week of bed rest, she started improving. But on day 12, every old symptom returned, amplified and with reinforcements: She spiked an intermittent fever, lost her sense of taste and smell, and struggled to breathe.

When I spoke with LeClerc on day 66, she was still experiencing waves of symptoms. “Before this, I was a fit, healthy 32-year-old,” she said. “Now I’ve been reduced to not being able to stand up in the shower without feeling fatigued. I’ve tried going to the supermarket and I’m in bed for days afterwards. It’s like nothing I’ve ever experienced before.” Despite her best efforts, LeClerc has not been able to get a test, but “every doctor I’ve spoken to says there’s no shadow of a doubt that this has been COVID,” she said. Today is day 80.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/

Edited June 8, 2020 by Wideleft

[Tracker]

21 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

This is what I am trying to grapple with as I see these kinds of reactions on social media... Like is it a combination of people not understanding what was going on and what has gone on since? I refuse to believe anyone can be that ignorant.... 

We live in a time and place where there is still a flat earth society, anti-vaxers, and about 100 million people still think that Trump is doing a good job. Still convinced that there are not many who are deliberately ignorant?

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

No new probable cases of COVID-19 (coronavirus) were reported in Manitoba on Monday, leaving the provincial total at 300.

[Floyd]

15 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I hate to pile on, but this is simply not true.  It's a nursing home issue, it's a health worker issue, it's a meat packing plant issue, it's a poverty issue, it's a homeless issue etc. etc.  I don't know if anyone has heard the term "long-haulers" yet, but it's a group of people who have suffered with symptoms too mild for hospital treatment, but too severe to function on a day to day basis - for weeks and months.  Because they haven't been hospitalized (or in some cases, diagnosed), the statistics don't include them.

COVID-19 Can Last for Several Months

The disease’s “long-haulers” have endured relentless waves of debilitating symptoms—and disbelief from doctors and friends.

• Story by Ed Yong
• JUNE 4, 2020

Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here.

For vonny leclerc, day one was March 16.

Hours after British Prime Minister Boris Johnson instated stringent social-distancing measures to halt the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, LeClerc, a Glasgow-based journalist, arrived home feeling shivery and flushed. Over the next few days, she developed a cough, chest pain, aching joints, and a prickling sensation on her skin. After a week of bed rest, she started improving. But on day 12, every old symptom returned, amplified and with reinforcements: She spiked an intermittent fever, lost her sense of taste and smell, and struggled to breathe.

When I spoke with LeClerc on day 66, she was still experiencing waves of symptoms. “Before this, I was a fit, healthy 32-year-old,” she said. “Now I’ve been reduced to not being able to stand up in the shower without feeling fatigued. I’ve tried going to the supermarket and I’m in bed for days afterwards. It’s like nothing I’ve ever experienced before.” Despite her best efforts, LeClerc has not been able to get a test, but “every doctor I’ve spoken to says there’s no shadow of a doubt that this has been COVID,” she said. Today is day 80.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/

I have absolutely heard of 'long haulers'...  but as of yet, these cases are outliers...  That is the reason I do not cite them - much the same as I am aware of Kawasaki syndrome as a covid side-effect

Again this leads to my point - the same people who decry contrary opinion backed up by multiple, credible sources (i.e. a basic fact that Covid overwhelmingly kills nursing home patients over 70)... then cite anecdotal stories.  The Atlantic article is anecdotal unfortunately.

This is not to say that there are not covid cases that last months... but why is this article given more credence that Italy's top doc saying covid no longer exists in Italy... its just interesting that's all.

Negative covid stories get more traction than positive covid stories - its a strange phenomena

People who are sick with covid should be treated in a hospital or facility - not told to stay at home until they are critical.  This has always been my position.  Who knows ibuprofen or oxygen may help these 'long-haulers'... we'll never know because we left them in lockdown.

[The Unknown Poster]

49 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

This is what I am trying to grapple with as I see these kinds of reactions on social media... Like is it a combination of people not understanding what was going on and what has gone on since? I refuse to believe anyone can be that ignorant.... 

Ive noticed among some "friends" that if they are devout conservatives, it literally doesnt matter what reality is...they will always side with the far right.  Im sure its the same for the far left too but thats not the big issue right now.  

[Floyd]

COVID-19 Can Last for Several Months

'Of those surveyed, about three in five are between the ages of 30 and 49. About 56 percent have not been hospitalized, while another 38 percent have visited the ER but were not admitted. About a quarter have tested positive for COVID-19 and almost half have never been tested at all. Some became sick in mid-March, when their home countries were severely short on tests. (Most survey respondents live in the U.S. and the U.K.) Others were denied testing because their symptoms didn’t match the standard set. Angela Meriquez Vázquez, a children’s activist in Los Angeles, had gastrointestinal problems and lost her sense of smell, but because she didn’t have a cough and her fever hadn’t topped 100 degrees Fahrenheit, she didn’t meet L.A.’s testing criteria. By the time those criteria were loosened, Vázquez was on day 14. She got a test, and it came back negative. (She is now on day 69.)'

How on earth do you use an article that states that 94% of covid positive patients between 30 and 49 were never hospitalized or even admitted - some were sick well before lockdown... then find 9 out of 640 people who are 'long-haulers'... then use that as somehow 'proof' that covid affects the general populace??? 

If we applied that logic to all disease - we would be walking around in bubble boy suits.

If an article was published with this same lack of statistical significance and same lack of backup data - yet it was not fearmongering - we would be comparing the author to an 'anti-vaxxer' or 'truther'...

Strange times.

 

[Mr Dee]

In a modelling study of lockdown impact in 11 countries, Imperial College London scientists say COVID-19 restrictions and school closures imposed starting in March may have prevented 3 million deaths in Europe. http://cbc.ca/1.5602984

 

[Sard]

23 minutes ago, Floyd said:

COVID-19 Can Last for Several Months

'Of those surveyed, about three in five are between the ages of 30 and 49. About 56 percent have not been hospitalized, while another 38 percent have visited the ER but were not admitted. About a quarter have tested positive for COVID-19 and almost half have never been tested at all. Some became sick in mid-March, when their home countries were severely short on tests. (Most survey respondents live in the U.S. and the U.K.) Others were denied testing because their symptoms didn’t match the standard set. Angela Meriquez Vázquez, a children’s activist in Los Angeles, had gastrointestinal problems and lost her sense of smell, but because she didn’t have a cough and her fever hadn’t topped 100 degrees Fahrenheit, she didn’t meet L.A.’s testing criteria. By the time those criteria were loosened, Vázquez was on day 14. She got a test, and it came back negative. (She is now on day 69.)'

How on earth do you use an article that states that 94% of covid positive patients between 30 and 49 were never hospitalized or even admitted - some were sick well before lockdown... then find 9 out of 640 people who are 'long-haulers'... then use that as somehow 'proof' that covid affects the general populace??? 

If we applied that logic to all disease - we would be walking around in bubble boy suits.

If an article was published with this same lack of statistical significance and same lack of backup data - yet it was not fearmongering - we would be comparing the author to an 'anti-vaxxer' or 'truther'...

Strange times.

 

The point of the lockdown was to take those 30 to 49 year olds who have Covid and stop them from spreading it to people who are more vulnerable.  Since Covid is so much more infectious that other things (like the flu), that was why the lockdown was required.  As has been missed by many over and over again, it's not that Covid is extra deadly, it's that Covid is extra infectious.  The more people who get infected, the more you put more vulnerable people at risk.

[The Unknown Poster]

6 minutes ago, Sard said:

The point of the lockdown was to take those 30 to 49 year olds who have Covid and stop them from spreading it to people who are more vulnerable.  Since Covid is so much more infectious that other things (like the flu), that was why the lockdown was required.  As has been missed by many over and over again, it's not that Covid is extra deadly, it's that Covid is extra infectious.  The more people who get infected, the more you put more vulnerable people at risk.

In the early going, the death rate was much higher than the flu but I suppose the experts could have said "hey, we may have something here that is highly contagious and very deadly and carriers may not even know they have it.  Maybe we should wait and see what happens.  If 50 million people die then we know to try harder next time."   So I agree with you 100%.  The fact it may not be as deadly as initially feared is good news not "gotcha" news.  

I bet a lot of these people believe "all lives matter" except the old and sick when it inconveniences me.

[Wideleft]

48 minutes ago, Floyd said:

COVID-19 Can Last for Several Months

'Of those surveyed, about three in five are between the ages of 30 and 49. About 56 percent have not been hospitalized, while another 38 percent have visited the ER but were not admitted. About a quarter have tested positive for COVID-19 and almost half have never been tested at all. Some became sick in mid-March, when their home countries were severely short on tests. (Most survey respondents live in the U.S. and the U.K.) Others were denied testing because their symptoms didn’t match the standard set. Angela Meriquez Vázquez, a children’s activist in Los Angeles, had gastrointestinal problems and lost her sense of smell, but because she didn’t have a cough and her fever hadn’t topped 100 degrees Fahrenheit, she didn’t meet L.A.’s testing criteria. By the time those criteria were loosened, Vázquez was on day 14. She got a test, and it came back negative. (She is now on day 69.)'

How on earth do you use an article that states that 94% of covid positive patients between 30 and 49 were never hospitalized or even admitted - some were sick well before lockdown... then find 9 out of 640 people who are 'long-haulers'... then use that as somehow 'proof' that covid affects the general populace??? 

If we applied that logic to all disease - we would be walking around in bubble boy suits.

If an article was published with this same lack of statistical significance and same lack of backup data - yet it was not fearmongering - we would be comparing the author to an 'anti-vaxxer' or 'truther'...

Strange times.

 

Not sure which clouds you're yelling at this time, but if you're talking to me, I did no such thing.  All I'm relating is that there are more people effected in more ways than you are suggesting by saying this is a "nursing home problem".  Because many long-haulers are either recorded as having mild symptoms, or not recorded at all, there is no definitive way to tell how many there actually are.

[Floyd]

18 minutes ago, Sard said:

The point of the lockdown was to take those 30 to 49 year olds who have Covid and stop them from spreading it to people who are more vulnerable.  Since Covid is so much more infectious that other things (like the flu), that was why the lockdown was required.  As has been missed by many over and over again, it's not that Covid is extra deadly, it's that Covid is extra infectious.  The more people who get infected, the more you put more vulnerable people at risk.

Which leads back to my original question - do you expect a large second wave of covid and resulting deaths because of the BLM protests worldwide?  If not why not?

I'm not against lockdown but I am deeply concerned with the longer term and global fallout and even more concerned with the fear-based decision making... 

Our lockdown also accidentally hastened its spread in nursing homes - i.e. the most vulnerable - so we did not quite achieve what we wanted.

[Wideleft]

25 minutes ago, Sard said:

The point of the lockdown was to take those 30 to 49 year olds who have Covid and stop them from spreading it to people who are more vulnerable.  Since Covid is so much more infectious that other things (like the flu), that was why the lockdown was required.  As has been missed by many over and over again, it's not that Covid is extra deadly, it's that Covid is extra infectious.  The more people who get infected, the more you put more vulnerable people at risk.

And by extension, overwhelm health care.  Italy proved that concern was real by resorting to field medicine decisions on who to save.

[Floyd]

3 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

Not sure which clouds you're yelling at this time, but if you're talking to me, I did no such thing.  All I'm relating is that there are more people effected in more ways than you are suggesting by saying this is a "nursing home problem".  Because many long-haulers are either recorded as having mild symptoms, or not recorded at all, there is no definitive way to tell how many there actually are.

Ha don't Grampa Simpson me... that's Speedflex's territory.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree...

The vast majority of critical cases and deaths are in nursing homes - this is an undeniable fact.  That makes its primarily a nursing home problem.  Not sure how else to point that out.

Does that mean we should NOT do anything to protect people?  No.  Does that mean we should spend the majority of funds protecting elderly in nursing homes?  Yes.  Have we done that?  No.

It is a respiratory disease that is spread through proximity and length of exposure - this is a fact (even though there may be other factors - potentially a blood disease, etc) - it is spread through droplets in the air.

Yes, that makes it an industrial food, office, tourism, air travel issue...  but whether you get sick for several months or not, your chances of surviving covid are extremely high compared to people over 70.  I have yet to see the real plan to protect that demographic while the rest of society - the extremely low risk - return to normal.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

7 hours ago, Mark H. said:

I guess if we need another answer as to why the protests were allowed - they were OUTSIDE.  OUTDOORS. NOT INDOORS. 

Okay then let the CFL play. 

[The Unknown Poster]

54 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Okay then let the CFL play. 

The players play outdoors.  But the crowds gather as close to inside as you can get without a roof.  Masks are a lot less effective when you're consuming food and beer too.

Edited June 8, 2020 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

Thank God we have a poster or two here who are so consumed with the health of the global economy.  Now I dont have to worry about it and I can just be concerned about the health of humans.

[Floyd]

7 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The players play outdoors.  But the crowds gather as close to inside as you can get without a roof.  Masks are a lot less effective when you're consuming food and beer too.

Here's a crazy idea... don't sell food and beer

Wearing masks seems to have been proven effective in large crowds (20,000) in close proximity for extended periods... don't see the problem with IGF - except that its not for a 'cause'

[SpeedFlex27]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The players play outdoors.  But the crowds gather as close to inside as you can get without a roof.  Masks are a lot less effective when you're consuming food and beer too.

Don't see any difference between 20,000 at an outside political rally with people surrounded shoulder to shoulder & a CFL game. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Here's a crazy idea... don't sell food and beer

Wearing masks seems to have been proven effective in large crowds (20,000) in close proximity for extended periods... don't see the problem with IGF - except that its not for a 'cause'

You have a report detailing that the rally this past friday did not cause any spread?  And are you basing this on Winnipeg where we have 9 active cases, all of whom surely didnt attend?  Sounds scientific.

[Floyd]

6 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Thank God we have a poster or two here who are so consumed with the health of the global economy.  Now I dont have to worry about it and I can just be concerned about the health of humans.

Yeah, I checked MInnesota's stats... there's no wave, no spike - maybe its still coming but you are talking out of your *** currently

1197 deaths - of those 995 deaths are in nursing homes... 550 of those deaths are over 90 (41 over 100)

The same statistics as everywhere... just unreal how people can deny this is a 'nursing home disease' when all the data points directly towards that

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Don't see any difference between 20,000 at an outside political rally with people surrounded shoulder to shoulder & a CFL game. 

I suppose if they want to have one CFL game with 20,000 people, vast majority wearing masks.  No food or drinks, for about an hour or two then sure.  Want to do it every week (or numerous times per weekend for the games played in hub cities) with eating and drinking and yelling and cheering?  Risk is relatively low here.  But I think we'd defer to the experts.

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Yeah, I checked MInnesota's stats... there's no wave, no spike - maybe its still coming but you are talking out of your *** currently

1197 deaths - of those 995 deaths are in nursing homes... 550 of those deaths are over 90 (41 over 100)

The same statistics as everywhere... just unreal how people can deny this is a 'nursing home disease' when all the data points directly towards that

I posted a sort about the spike in cases being the worst for those areas.  You are welcome to go back and look for it.   

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I suppose if they want to have one CFL game with 20,000 people, vast majority wearing masks.  No food or drinks, for about an hour or two then sure.  Want to do it every week (or numerous times per weekend for the games played in hub cities) with eating and drinking and yelling and cheering?  Risk is relatively low here.  But I think we'd defer to the experts.

I get that but... when it came to demonstrations no one deferred to any experts. It just went ahead. No one stopped it. Seems demonstrations are okay but football games are not even though the crowds are similar in size. That is why I'm so disenchanted. It's okay to break the rules as long as it is politically correct. I lost my job.  I've self isolated for months wanting to flatten the curve. For what? What a waste of my life since March. Myself & millions of others.  We've been lied to. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by SpeedFlex27