Covid-19

[Sard]

1 minute ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Just to split hairs I’d rather not call them vaccine passports but rather have people show their immunization cards. The cynical part of me tho is all this will lead to is a huge spike in black market revenue because, you know, human beings. I’m becoming less and less of a fan of our species. 

Fair point on the naming.  I actually like that it's the QR code that needs to be scanned because it's harder to fake that.  I also believe that people who legitimately can't get vaccinated should have one as well so that they aren't limited.  The process to get that though should be heavily vetted.

[JCon]

I think it's as simple as enforcing the restrictions they put in.

And, soon (very soon), everyone who is unvaccinated will get Covid anyhow. It's too rampant at this point.

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

As someone who thinks a person who is able but chooses not to get vaccinated is stupid and selfish, I don't like the idea of mandatory vaccination. Taking away privileges, etc, is one thing, but something about forcing a needle into someone's arm makes me uneasy.

Unless I am misunderstanding what they mean by "mandatory". 

It has already been established in Canadian Law that parents have a duty to ensure the health and welfare of dependent children and adults.  So, how would you deal with parents who neither get vaccinated nor have their children vaccinated? Successful prosecutions and apprehensions have already happened when parents have chosen to feed their dependents on bizarre or unhealthy diets or refuse them venous transfusions, insulin, etc.

[Noeller]

22 minutes ago, JCon said:

I think it's as simple as enforcing the restrictions they put in.

And, soon (very soon), everyone who is unvaccinated will get Covid anyhow. It's too rampant at this point.

I'm not saying you ARE implying this, but infection does not equal immunization. With each variant, unvaccinated who've had past COVIDs are becoming re-infected. 

[JCon]

Just now, Noeller said:

I'm not saying you ARE implying this, but infection does not equal immunization. With each variant, unvaccinated who've had past COVIDs are becoming re-infected. 

Agreed. I was thinking of it in terms of the healthcare system. If you get really sick from Covid, you're probably going to change your mind on vaccinations and get the shot. If you don't get sick, it's probably not going to push you to get it. 

But, if we're trying to protect the healthcare system, those that don't have adverse short-term outcomes, won't continue to put a strain on it. 

Covid-zero has never been the goal of any level of gov't in most Western countries, so I doubt we'll ever see a push for 100% vaccination requirement. I know China is currently pursuing a Covid-zero policy, which, I understand, is like whack-a-mole. 

[blue_gold_84]

39 minutes ago, Sard said:

Fair point on the naming.  I actually like that it's the QR code that needs to be scanned because it's harder to fake that.  I also believe that people who legitimately can't get vaccinated should have one as well so that they aren't limited.  The process to get that though should be heavily vetted.

I'm pretty sure that's already the case, IIRC. Proof of vaccination or proof of exemption with the QR coded card.

"Vaccine passport" was poor wording from the get-go, and "proof of vaccination" would've probably gone better, IMO. I mean, the latter's existed for decades with regard to admission for school, conditions for employment, etc. and seemed to be far more well received in convincing people to do what's right for the betterment of society as a whole.

As for the shistains who would produce or procure fake passports, they deserve all the ire and punishment that could be directed their way. I am so utterly exhausted of the narcissists on this ******* planet.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Manitoba reported 2,383 new COVID-19 infections and 19 deaths on Monday.

There are 378 Manitobans in hospital with COVID-19, 39 of them in intensive care. The test positivity rate provincewide is 49 per cent.

Based on provincial data, public health officials are highlighting the following trends for the week ending Jan. 6:

An average of 1,814.7 new cases per day.

A total of 201 new hospitalizations, a 51.1 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 20 new intensive care cases, a 5.3 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 12,703 cases, a 6.9 per cent increase from the previous week.

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, HardCoreBlue said:

The cynical part of me tho is all this will lead to is a huge spike in black market revenue because, you know, human beings. I’m becoming less and less of a fan of our species. 

Exhibit A: taking unprescribed Ivermectin, acquired by pretending you have horses. 

[Tracker]

                                                                             NEW, EFFECTIVE COVID TREATMENT!!!

 

                                                                

[the watcher]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Manitoba reported 2,383 new COVID-19 infections and 19 deaths on Monday.

There are 378 Manitobans in hospital with COVID-19, 39 of them in intensive care. The test positivity rate provincewide is 49 per cent.

Based on provincial data, public health officials are highlighting the following trends for the week ending Jan. 6:

An average of 1,814.7 new cases per day.

A total of 201 new hospitalizations, a 51.1 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 20 new intensive care cases, a 5.3 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 12,703 cases, a 6.9 per cent increase from the previous week.

Stunning numbers . Eventually I think we all get it. I don't know if its avoidable. Hopefully we can string it out enough that if we need hospitalization there will be room. 

[the watcher]

My wife worked as a healthcare aide for 20 years then retired and started doing homecare a few years ago. She now goes into homes where her clients are unmasked. Lots of times there are unmasked visitors there. Some of them aren't vaxed. She gets medical masks and was issued ONE fitted  N95 just in case they answer yes to the usual quizz. Eye drops are a common need of her clients so there is lots of very close contact. She can have a dozen clients in a shift . How the hell this is being allowed is beyond me.

Edited January 10, 2022 by the watcher

[Engelwood]

2 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Manitoba reported 2,383 new COVID-19 infections and 19 deaths on Monday.

There are 378 Manitobans in hospital with COVID-19, 39 of them in intensive care. The test positivity rate provincewide is 49 per cent.

Based on provincial data, public health officials are highlighting the following trends for the week ending Jan. 6:

An average of 1,814.7 new cases per day.

A total of 201 new hospitalizations, a 51.1 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 20 new intensive care cases, a 5.3 per cent increase from the previous week.

A total of 12,703 cases, a 6.9 per cent increase from the previous week.

Test Positivity rate is no longer a great stat as the majority of tests being run are on people who are showing significant symptoms and are not vaccinated. 

[Noeller]

1 hour ago, Engelwood said:

Test Positivity rate is no longer a great stat as the majority of tests being run are on people who are showing significant symptoms and are not vaccinated. 

Hospitalizations, ICU and deaths are all that matters right now... 

[HardCoreBlue]

4 hours ago, Sard said:

Fair point on the naming.  I actually like that it's the QR code that needs to be scanned because it's harder to fake that.  I also believe that people who legitimately can't get vaccinated should have one as well so that they aren't limited.  The process to get that though should be heavily vetted.

How about if immunized you can walk around freely with no mask if you choose you don’t want to wear one? If  not immunized either you are free to leave or you can walk around freely with required N95 mask?

[GCJenks]

Anyone else here the latest out of Quebec?

soon you will need proof of vaccinations to be able enter a liquor or cannabis store. First dose rates were up 6 fold in the days after this was proclaimed. It’s somewhat surprising as you can buy beer, wine and canned cocktails just about anywhere but it seems to have had an effect. 

[Tracker]

10 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

How about if immunized you can walk around freely with no mask if you choose you don’t want to wear one? If  not immunized either you are free to leave or you can walk around freely with required N95 mask?

The problem is that even fully vaccinated, you can still be both asymptomatic and a carrier.

[WildPath]

6 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Open question for the group, just looking for opinions:

If people don’t want to enforce vaccinations but are OK with denying access to things or places as a privilege withheld, then how would people feel about denying access to healthcare or the ICU for those who refuse to take steps (I.e. getting vaccinated) to keep themselves and others as healthy as possible, keeping in mind that health care is a right and not a privilege? I am seriously on the fence here, as I don’t like the infringement of rights but also hate the thought of others being denied care because of the overcrowding of ICUs and it puts others at risk for their cancelled procedures. 

No "mandatory" vaccinations, but highly reduced privileges for the willingly unvaccinated. Make society as safe as possible for the vulnerable and those who care about other human beings, let the unvaccinated bear the weight of the pandemic for once. Actually make an attempt at enforcement. Triage protocols that place unvaccinated people near the bottom of priority lists for ICU/hospitalization. Ease the burden on healthcare workers so they actually have some quality of life and maybe unfilled positions won't be the norm. Fix the healthcare system rather than seeing the pandemic as an opportunity to prove the public system can't work so privatization looks beneficial.

Plan ahead? Use science instead of politics. Be proactive and see what restrictions make sense rather than "wait-and-see" which leads to more suffering and stricter lockdowns.

5 hours ago, Sard said:

Fair point on the naming.  I actually like that it's the QR code that needs to be scanned because it's harder to fake that.  I also believe that people who legitimately can't get vaccinated should have one as well so that they aren't limited.  The process to get that though should be heavily vetted.

I haven't gone out too much, so I can't confirm, but I've heard vax checks have been somewhat spotty. Friends only asked for self-check when flying, not being checked when going into restaurants and not checking ID with the cards happening frequently. Is this true or do people find they are checked properly most of the time?

3 hours ago, the watcher said:

Stunning numbers . Eventually I think we all get it. I don't know if its avoidable. Hopefully we can string it out enough that if we need hospitalization there will be room. 

Omicron-specific vaccines are apparently coming from Pfizer in March. Hopeful for 6 months - 5 year vax coming in July (it was supposed to be March-ish, but turned out ineffective). Take-at-home pill treatments should be getting more available in the near future as well. Unfortunately testing capacity will be very important for treatments as they need to be administered in the first few days of treatment to be effective.

45 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

How about if immunized you can walk around freely with no mask if you choose you don’t want to wear one? If  not immunized either you are free to leave or you can walk around freely with required N95 mask?

People often don't wear masks properly. There's no way it would be possible to enforce anti-vaxxers to wear a mask properly.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, WildPath said:

No "mandatory" vaccinations, but highly reduced privileges for the willingly unvaccinated. Make society as safe as possible for the vulnerable and those who care about other human beings, let the unvaccinated bear the weight of the pandemic for once. Actually make an attempt at enforcement. Triage protocols that place unvaccinated people near the bottom of priority lists for ICU/hospitalization. Ease the burden on healthcare workers so they actually have some quality of life and maybe unfilled positions won't be the norm. Fix the healthcare system rather than seeing the pandemic as an opportunity to prove the public system can't work so privatization looks beneficial.

Plan ahead? Use science instead of politics. Be proactive and see what restrictions make sense rather than "wait-and-see" which leads to more suffering and stricter lockdowns.

I haven't gone out too much, so I can't confirm, but I've heard vax checks have been somewhat spotty. Friends only asked for self-check when flying, not being checked when going into restaurants and not checking ID with the cards happening frequently. Is this true or do people find they are checked properly most of the time?

Omicron-specific vaccines are apparently coming from Pfizer in March. Hopeful for 6 months - 5 year vax coming in July (it was supposed to be March-ish, but turned out ineffective). Take-at-home pill treatments should be getting more available in the near future as well. Unfortunately testing capacity will be very important for treatments as they need to be administered in the first few days of treatment to be effective.

People often don't wear masks properly. There's no way it would be possible to enforce anti-vaxxers to wear a mask properly.

Those who have made the decision to not be vaccinated have done so on an emotional basis, and emotional decisions do not respond well to logic, even if that logic is well-founded in science and experience. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

10 hours ago, Tracker said:

Those who have made the decision to not be vaccinated have done so on an emotional basis, and emotional decisions do not respond well to logic, even if that logic is well-founded in science and experience. 

To defend the anti-vax crowd for a minute (and this is the only minute l will spend on them) they could make the same argument against the vaccine crowd. “You are being ruled by emotional fear, so you are jumping to take an unproven vaccine that you don’t know the risks of. My logical research tells me there is no way a vaccine could be developed that quickly with no known risk”.

The problem is the “logical” information everyone has access to, and the confirmation bias at play for both sides. Whatever logic is being applied has the emotional underpinning of “wanting to believe that logic”. I want to believe that vaccines will protect me, so I buy the reported science behind its safety and effectiveness, and point to the cases of anti-vaxxers dying or ending up in the ICU as validation of my side. They will point to vaxxers still catching COVID or having side effects as proof the vaccines are not working. Both sides can say that their science is sound and the opposite side is living in fantasy world, and there is enough noise out there on both sides to back up the basic position unless one digs past the chatter and gets some honest infallible research behind it, which can too easily get buried in the crush of “information”  

I put the blame a lot on the changing media landscape which has replaced hard news with opinion and entertainment for the sake of ratings over objective truth, not caring what their “spin” is and how it warps critical thinking so long as it gets them eyeballs and screen clicks. I have very little time for much of the media and the monsters they have created but take no accountability for under the guise of “journalistic freedom”. I will freely admit to having a massive bias based on personal experience. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Tracker]

21 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

To defend the anti-vax crowd for a minute (and this is the only minute l will spend on them) they could make the same argument against the vaccine crowd. “You are being ruled by emotional fear, so you are jumping to take an unproven vaccine that you don’t know the risks of. My logical research tells me there is no way a vaccine could be developed that quickly with no known risk”.

The problem is the “logical” information everyone has access to, and the confirmation bias at play for both sides. Whatever logic is being applied has the emotional underpinning of “wanting to believe that logic”. I want to believe that vaccines will protect me, so I buy the reported science behind its safety and effectiveness, and point to the cases of anti-vaxxers dying or ending up in the ICU as validation of my side. They will point to vaxxers still catching COVID or having side effects as proof the vaccines are not working. Both sides can say that their science is sound and the opposite side is living in fantasy world, and there is enough noise out there on both sides to back up the basic position unless one digs past the chatter and gets some honest infallible research behind it, which can too easily get buried in the crush of “information”  

I put the blame a lot on the changing media landscape which has replaced hard news with opinion and entertainment for the sake of ratings over objective truth, not caring what their “spin” is and how it warps critical thinking so long as it gets them eyeballs and screen clicks. I have very little time for much of the media and the monsters they have created but take no accountability for under the guise of “journalistic freedom”. I will freely admit to having a massive bias based on personal experience. 

Strongly disagree. Making a decision on a hunch may work in poker, but when the vaccine has undergone thousands of tests and was developed independently in a half-dozen labs coordinating development and sharing data, it no longer an article of faith.  It is hard, replicable science. Logic can be flawed, but science, though imperfect, does not respond to emotion. And yes, there is a degree of risk, but risk is inherent in every aspect of everyday life. We need to look at the data and assess risk vs reward.

[SpeedFlex27]

37 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

To defend the anti-vax crowd for a minute (and this is the only minute l will spend on them) they could make the same argument against the vaccine crowd. “You are being ruled by emotional fear, so you are jumping to take an unproven vaccine that you don’t know the risks of. My logical research tells me there is no way a vaccine could be developed that quickly with no known risk”.

The problem is the “logical” information everyone has access to, and the confirmation bias at play for both sides. Whatever logic is being applied has the emotional underpinning of “wanting to believe that logic”. I want to believe that vaccines will protect me, so I buy the reported science behind its safety and effectiveness, and point to the cases of anti-vaxxers dying or ending up in the ICU as validation of my side. They will point to vaxxers still catching COVID or having side effects as proof the vaccines are not working. Both sides can say that their science is sound and the opposite side is living in fantasy world, and there is enough noise out there on both sides to back up the basic position unless one digs past the chatter and gets some honest infallible research behind it, which can too easily get buried in the crush of “information”  

I put the blame a lot on the changing media landscape which has replaced hard news with opinion and entertainment for the sake of ratings over objective truth, not caring what their “spin” is and how it warps critical thinking so long as it gets them eyeballs and screen clicks. I have very little time for much of the media and the monsters they have created but take no accountability for under the guise of “journalistic freedom”. I will freely admit to having a massive bias based on personal experience. 

There is absolutely no defense of the anti vax crowd. Laying it all on the media for what's happening is just too easy. People need to take responsibility for their actions so I also disagree.

There's a guy in the US, one of the leading anti vaxxers going around claiming that drinking your own urine cures Covid. And people listen to him. We had Trump bestow the virtues of hydroxachloroquine. The whining about loss of freedoms. About being forced to take an unproven vaccine. Even though drinking bleach like Trump also suggested will kill you. All this in the last 2 years. People are idiots. They believe what they want to believe. 

No one will deny healthcare to the antivaxers who get sick & rush to the hospital. We all pay income taxes so they won't get turned away even though they should. Funny how they don't trust the science of vaccines yet trust medical science to try & save them. 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[WildPath]

12 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Funny how they don't trust the science of vaccines yet trust medical science to try & save them. 

Wondering if they will trust the pill treatment by Pfizer once it becomes available. Judging by monoclonal antibody treatment only being available to the unvaccinated, I'm sure they will get first priority once treatment options like the Pfizer pill become available.

I think many of them say they won't go to the doctor if they become sick, funny thing is - gasping for each breath kind of changes your commitments.

[HardCoreBlue]

34 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

There is absolutely no defense of the anti vax crowd. Laying it all on the media for what's happening is just too easy. People need to take responsibility for their actions so I also disagree.

There's a guy in the US, one of the leading anti vaxxers going around claiming that drinking your own urine cures Covid. And people listen to him. We had Trump bestow the virtues of hydroxachloroquine. The whining about loss of freedoms. About being forced to take an unproven vaccine. Even though drinking bleach like Trump also suggested will kill you. All this in the last 2 years. People are idiots. They believe what they want to believe. 

No one will deny healthcare to the antivaxers who get sick & rush to the hospital. We all pay income taxes so they won't get turned away even though they should. Funny how they don't trust the science of vaccines yet trust medical science to try & save them. 

 

And they're the first ones to pick up a red bull and a hot dog at sev without blinking an eye. Sigh.

[blue_gold_84]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

To defend the anti-vax crowd for a minute (and this is the only minute l will spend on them) they could make the same argument against the vaccine crowd. “You are being ruled by emotional fear, so you are jumping to take an unproven vaccine that you don’t know the risks of. My logical research tells me there is no way a vaccine could be developed that quickly with no known risk”.

Yeah, this ain't it. The COVID-19 vaccines available are proven to be effective and the data bears that fact since being administered over a year ago. And just because it was fast-tracked doesn't mean the risks* are unknown. I mean, it's almost like the human race is capable of great accomplishments when we put our collective efforts together and put aside nonsense like political division, red tape, and other bureaucratic garbage.

Your defense of the covidiot brigade is woefully misguided.

* the risks of the virus itself are far worse, anyway (see long COVID, for example)

[HardCoreBlue]

58 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Yeah, this ain't it. The COVID-19 vaccines available are proven to be effective and the data bears that fact since being administered over a year ago. And just because it was fast-tracked doesn't mean the risks* are unknown. I mean, it's almost like the human race is capable of great accomplishments when we put our collective efforts together and put aside nonsense like political division, red tape, and other bureaucratic garbage.

Your defense of the covidiot brigade is woefully misguided.

* the risks of the virus itself are far worse, anyway (see long COVID, for example)

We need to stop calling them anti-vaxxers and call them anti-science, anti-logic, anti-evidence, anti-fact, anti-intelliegence, anti-coherence etc etc etc.