Covid-19

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Manitoba reported 2,012 new COVID-19 infections today.

There are 418 Manitobans in hospital with COVID-19, an increase of 40 from Monday. Forty-two of them are in intensive care, an increase of three from Monday.

No new deaths were reported. The test positivity rate provincewide is 48.1 per cent.

[TrueBlue4ever]

13 hours ago, Tracker said:

Those who have made the decision to not be vaccinated have done so on an emotional basis, and emotional decisions do not respond well to logic, even if that logic is well-founded in science and experience. 

Let me try to clarify a bit. I have highlighted what I took issue with. Before I go down this rabbit hole, let me clearly state:

1. I am VERY pro-vaccination and it drives me crazy to see the continued resistance in some quarters. 

2. I am strongly in favour of restrictions to privileges for those who, for other than medical reasons, opt not to take the vaccine. Suspend travel, bar entry to establishments, border crossings, etc., deny first access to medical treatment since you have done nothing to assist in the process and are putting others at risk. 

My point was that we are not talking about completely emotion-based decisions on one side and completely logic-based decisions on the other side. I believe it is more accurately presented as information vs. misinformation 

3 hours ago, Tracker said:

Strongly disagree. Making a decision on a hunch may work in poker, but when the vaccine has undergone thousands of tests and was developed independently in a half-dozen labs coordinating development and sharing data, it no longer an article of faith.  It is hard, replicable science. Logic can be flawed, but science, though imperfect, does not respond to emotion. And yes, there is a degree of risk, but risk is inherent in every aspect of everyday life. We need to look at the data and assess risk vs reward.

I am aware of the science I follow, and I believe it to be sound (it is the same science you tout, BTW). But you describe anti-vaxxers as using emotion and not logic, but now say logic can be flawed. THAT is my point - in their minds they are using logic, not emotion, and the pro-vaxxers are being emotionally driven by fear in rushing to get the vaccine. It is merely an issue of labelling. And I feel that is is being driven more so by misinformation as the underpinning to these decisions. To them, it is not a hunch, it is based on their form of logic, which is misguided by misinformation. To just shrug them off as using emotion instead of flawed thinking will not fix the problem. 

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

There is absolutely no defense of the anti vax crowd. Laying it all on the media for what's happening is just too easy. People need to take responsibility for their actions so I also disagree.

There's a guy in the US, one of the leading anti vaxxers going around claiming that drinking your own urine cures Covid. And people listen to him. We had Trump bestow the virtues of hydroxachloroquine. The whining about loss of freedoms. About being forced to take an unproven vaccine. Even though drinking bleach like Trump also suggested will kill you. All this in the last 2 years. People are idiots. They believe what they want to believe. 

No one will deny healthcare to the antivaxers who get sick & rush to the hospital. We all pay income taxes so they won't get turned away even though they should. Funny how they don't trust the science of vaccines yet trust medical science to try & save them. 

 

Firstly, not ALL of it. People are ultimately responsible for themselves, of course. But I will say that a sizeable portion of the blame can be pointed at those who peddle in misinformation from a position of influence, and we should not downplay the role they have in this, and the role they could play in correcting this misinformation for the public good. 

Secondly, you reference the misinformation out there from phone scientists and the former President, and say people are idiots who believe what they want to. Absolutely, you are actually agreeing with me. But that belief not emotion-based, but based on this kind of misinformation, and is being spread by influencers who are using the reach of the media, who are not shutting it down but throw it up on their screens. 

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Yeah, this ain't it. The COVID-19 vaccines available are proven to be effective and the data bears that fact since being administered over a year ago. And just because it was fast-tracked doesn't mean the risks* are unknown. I mean, it's almost like the human race is capable of great accomplishments when we put our collective efforts together and put aside nonsense like political division, red tape, and other bureaucratic garbage.

Your defense of the covidiot brigade is woefully misguided.

* the risks of the virus itself are far worse, anyway (see long COVID, for example)

Not so much a defence of them as an indictment of those who spread the misinformation. And my concern is that just dismissing anti-vaxxers as too emotional to be reasoned with leads down the path of “we need to just enforce rules since some won’t think for themselves and are putting others at risk, so screw their feelings”. There is a part of me that does nor mind that approach for the sake of saving humanity, but how far can that approach go, and at what point does the majority make a decision that I think is wrong but is the popular one (remember the debate about the possibility of “herd immunity” and avoiding an economy-crippling shutdown at all costs in the days before the vaccine was available?). Do we just wash our hands of those who disagree, or do we push for better education and more responsible information dissemination from this who have the power to do so? Or are too many people beyond hope of changing their thinking?

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Quebec to force unvaccinated to pay 'significant' financial penalty

Quebec Premier Francois Legault says adult residents who refuse to get vaccinated against COVID-19 will be charged a financial penalty.

Legault made the announcement to reporters today in Montreal, adding that the levy will only apply to people who do not qualify for medical exemptions.

It is the first time a government in Canada has announced a financial penalty for people who refuse to be vaccinated against COVID-19.

Legault says the amount of the penalty hasn’t been decided but will be "significant."

He says about 10 per cent of adults in Quebec are unvaccinated but they represent about 50 per cent of intensive care patients.

Earlier today, Quebec reported 62 more deaths attributed to the novel coronavirus, pushing the total number of people killed by COVID-19 in the province to 12,028, the most in Canada.

[Super Duper Negatron]

Trying to figure out what the endgame is going to be for this whole thing, and whether a certain segment of the population will ever feel comfortable again. I keep reading discourse online from fully vaccinated (and boostered) individuals that would like to lock everything down, mandate masks forever, etc. I get the idea that we want to reduce pressure on the hospitals, but isn't the science pretty clear that an otherwise healthy and fully vaccinated person is extremely unlikely to end up there? And if we think that unvaccinated folks are also the least likely to follow public health orders, what else can we do conceivably do at this point that is going to make any difference. Short of locking down until we vaccinate everyone, it feels to me like this is as good as it gets at this point.

I feel for teachers, but when I read things online like "THE GOVERNMENT IS SENDING US TO THE SLAUGHTER WITH NO PROTECTION!!!", I can't help but think "You have protection. It is called a vaccine and so far all the science says it is pretty damn good".

Edited January 11, 2022 by Super Duper Negatron

[Tracker]

United Employee Deaths Fell To Zero After COVID Vaccine Mandate, CEO Says

The airline said its employees' hospitalization rate is also "100x lower than the general population in the U.S.".  COVID-19 deaths among vaccinated United Airlines employees fell to zero after the company implemented a vaccine requirement, CEO Scott Kirby said in a memo to employees Tuesday.

United was the first major U.S. airline to roll out a mandate, telling its 67,000 U.S. employees last August to either get vaccinated or be fired, with limited exemptions for religious or health reasons.

The policy drew criticism from Republicans like Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) who said Kirby’s decision showed “callous disregard” for the rights of his employees.

As the extremely contagious omicron variant has sent case counts to new highs, snarling air travel in the process, United’s data would seem to validate the mandate.

“While we have about 3,000 employees who are currently positive for COVID, zero of our vaccinated employees are currently hospitalized,” Kirby told employees Tuesday in the memo. “Since our vaccine policy went into effect, the hospitalization rate among our employees has been 100x lower than the general population in the U.S.”

Currently in the U.S. more than 100,000 coronavirus patients are hospitalized nationwide, according to a New York Times database. The country is also averaging more than 500,000 new cases a day — a record.

Kirby added that there were no COVID-related deaths among vaccinated employees for eight weeks in a row.

 

 

 

[blue85gold]

2 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

Trying to figure out what the endgame is going to be for this whole thing, and whether a certain segment of the population will ever feel comfortable again. I keep reading discourse online from fully vaccinated (and boostered) individuals that would like to lock everything down, mandate masks forever, etc. I get the idea that we want to reduce pressure on the hospitals, but isn't the science pretty clear that an otherwise healthy and fully vaccinated person is extremely unlikely to end up there? And if we think that unvaccinated folks are also the least likely to follow public health orders, what else can we do conceivably do at this point that is going to make any difference. Short of locking down until we vaccinate everyone, it feels to me like this is as good as it gets at this point.

I feel for teachers, but when I read things online like "THE GOVERNMENT IS SENDING US TO THE SLAUGHTER WITH NO PROTECTION!!!", I can't help but think "You have protection. It is called a vaccine and so far all the science says it is pretty damn good".

I get these thoughts but everyone isn't eligible for the vaccine yet. Kids under 5 namely. How many of those teachers have kids under 5, or kids with compromised immune systems, or elderly parents they take care of. We are going to have to learn to live with the virus, but basically nothing has been done to make schools safer (improved ventilation, etc.). The govt just put all eggs in the vaccine basket and didn't do anything else. 

[Super Duper Negatron]

By the way, can I just say that the discussion on this board is a lifesaver. It is so much more measured than the other looney bin echo chambers on both sides of the argument.

[Tracker]

48 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Let me try to clarify a bit. I have highlighted what I took issue with. Before I go down this rabbit hole, let me clearly state:

1. I am VERY pro-vaccination and it drives me crazy to see the continued resistance in some quarters. 

2. I am strongly in favour of restrictions to privileges for those who, for other than medical reasons, opt not to take the vaccine. Suspend travel, bar entry to establishments, border crossings, etc., deny first access to medical treatment since you have done nothing to assist in the process and are putting others at risk. 

My point was that we are not talking about completely emotion-based decisions on one side and completely logic-based decisions on the other side. I believe it is more accurately presented as information vs. misinformation 

I am aware of the science I follow, and I believe it to be sound (it is the same science you tout, BTW). But you describe anti-vaxxers as using emotion and not logic, but now say logic can be flawed. THAT is my point - in their minds they are using logic, not emotion, and the pro-vaxxers are being emotionally driven by fear in rushing to get the vaccine. It is merely an issue of labelling. And I feel that is is being driven more so by misinformation as the underpinning to these decisions. To them, it is not a hunch, it is based on their form of logic, which is misguided by misinformation. To just shrug them off as using emotion instead of flawed thinking will not fix the problem. 

Firstly, not ALL of it. People are ultimately responsible for themselves, of course. But I will say that a sizeable portion of the blame can be pointed at those who peddle in misinformation from a position of influence, and we should not downplay the role they have in this, and the role they could play in correcting this misinformation for the public good. 

 

Perhaps it would be better to differentiate between "emotional" decisions and willful ignorance. The vast amount of credible data out there is unequivocally pro-vaccination, but if someone choose to look for data/rumours out there, they are also available. The choice to accept patently false data is either rooted in an emotional response (not my body) or a desire to believe and portray themselves as intellectually superior to others, or by blindly following some sort of self-appointed maven. Very few of these are open to data that conflicts with their belief system, and inevitably, their self-esteem becomes conflated with aberrant beliefs and they cannot back down without suffering cognitive dissonance. So, their rigid thinking persists, their positions harden and any conflicting information serves only to reinforce their thinking. They become totally emotionally invested in their beliefs, because, if they are wrong about vaccination, then they would have to question everything they believe in, and that will simply not do. 

[Mark H.]

3 hours ago, Tracker said:

Very few of these are open to data that conflicts with their belief system, and inevitably, their self-esteem becomes conflated with aberrant beliefs and they cannot back down without suffering cognitive dissonance. So, their rigid thinking persists, their positions harden and any conflicting information serves only to reinforce their thinking. They become totally emotionally invested in their beliefs, because, if they are wrong about vaccination, then they would have to question everything they believe in, and that will simply not do. 

Exactly. This.

In order to admit you are wrong about the Covid vaccine, you have to admit that you were wrong about a whole lot of other things.

I personally know some people who changed their stance, but they are scarce sir, mighty scarce

I have also been straight out asked to not mention vaccines again - true story.

 

[Noeller]

3 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Exactly. This.

In order to admit you are wrong about the Covid vaccine, you have to admit that you were wrong about a whole lot of other things.

I personally know some people who changed their stance, but they are scarce sir, mighty scarce

I have also been straight out asked to not mention vaccines again - true story.

 

I've got pretty strict orders about how much I'm allowed to talk about COVID/Vaccines/etc on air, because it's so polarizing (especially so in rural AB)..... smh. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

3 hours ago, Tracker said:

Perhaps it would be better to differentiate between "emotional" decisions and willful ignorance. The vast amount of credible data out there is unequivocally pro-vaccination, but if someone choose to look for data/rumours out there, they are also available. The choice to accept patently false data is either rooted in an emotional response (not my body) or a desire to believe and portray themselves as intellectually superior to others, or by blindly following some sort of self-appointed maven. Very few of these are open to data that conflicts with their belief system, and inevitably, their self-esteem becomes conflated with aberrant beliefs and they cannot back down without suffering cognitive dissonance. So, their rigid thinking persists, their positions harden and any conflicting information serves only to reinforce their thinking. They become totally emotionally invested in their beliefs, because, if they are wrong about vaccination, then they would have to question everything they believe in, and that will simply not do. 

This is a brilliant articulation. Thank you.

There are studies in psychology that show even intelligent, educated people can be swayed by groupthink and whose ego won’t allow them to question the majority they are around. And we are dealing with a gigantic number of uneducated people out there who are all too easily influenced by others to satisfy their confirmation bias. Consistent messaging and better education would be a big help, and not giving oxygen to those “mavens” as you correctly label them would be a blessing.

Great discussion all. Thanks for all the insights. 

[WildPath]

4 hours ago, blue85gold said:

How many of those teachers have kids under 5, or kids with compromised immune systems, or elderly parents they take care of

I'm 2/3 there. Do I get a prize? Before remote learning, I went from being a teacher to being a lawn care guy so I could keep myself and pregnant wife safe and to be able to see my parents. I've been literally on my death bed in ICU because of my condition before (when I was 24 no less), so I've been playing it pretty safe, especially since each of the 3 vax shots I've had are likely not super effective on me.

Not expecting the world to stop for people like myself, but just for people to be aware there are many people who can't "accept living with Covid" and have had really sh**y lives the past two years. When our hospitals are full and access to medical care is limited, that is the time to have restrictions that actually mean something.

Agreed that the conversation on here has been great. A lot of the drivel online is disgusting and not representative of the real population that actually has compassion and awareness.

[TrueBlue4ever]

12 minutes ago, WildPath said:

I'm 2/3 there. Do I get a prize? Before remote learning, I went from being a teacher to being a lawn care guy so I could keep myself and pregnant wife safe and to be able to see my parents. I've been literally on my death bed in ICU because of my condition before (when I was 24 no less), so I've been playing it pretty safe, especially since each of the 3 vax shots I've had are likely not super effective on me.

Not expecting the world to stop for people like myself, but just for people to be aware there are many people who can't "accept living with Covid" and have had really sh**y lives the past two years. When our hospitals are full and access to medical care is limited, that is the time to have restrictions that actually mean something.

Agreed that the conversation on here has been great. A lot of the drivel online is disgusting and not representative of the real population that actually has compassion and awareness.

Thanks for putting an actual human touch on this pandemic by sharing your experience. These perspectives are valuable in navigating all the issues. 

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

This is a brilliant articulation. Thank you.

There are studies in psychology that show even intelligent, educated people can be swayed by groupthink and whose ego won’t allow them to question the majority they are around. And we are dealing with a gigantic number of uneducated people out there who are all too easily influenced by others to satisfy their confirmation bias. Consistent messaging and better education would be a big help, and not giving oxygen to those “mavens” as you correctly label them would be a blessing.

Great discussion all. Thanks for all the insights. 

Absolutely.

The very real problem is, every time the science changes, it reinforces the 'groupthink.'

Try to pretend you are already skeptical about all of this - then they move isolation requirements from 14 days, to 10 days, to five days, and even suggest 2 days for asymptomatic kids

It was the same thing with masks, back in 2020. First they are not beneficial, then suddenly they are

Because of these perceptions, there is more than enough oxygen to keep the confirmation bias alive and well

 

  

[Tracker]

Conservative Activist Dies of COVID Complications After Attending Anti-Vax ‘Symposium’

A well-known conservative activist in Arlington, Texas, who peddled COVID-19 vaccine misinformation has died of complications caused by the virus—just a few weeks after attending a “symposium” against the shots.  Kelly Canon had celebrated her vaccine exemption a few weeks before she fell ill with the virus and wound up on a ventilator. 

The Arlington Republican Party confirmed the passing of Kelly Canon on Facebook.

“Another tragedy and loss for our Republican family. Our dear friend Kelly Canon lost her battle with pneumonia today. Kelly will be forever in our hearts as a loyal and beloved friend and Patriot. Gone way too soon We will keep her family in our prayers,” the Arlington Republican Club said in a statement.

Friends and colleagues of the Republican figure flooded social media with tributes on Tuesday, lamenting what they said was her death “from COVID-related pneumonia.”

Conservative Activist Kelly Canon Dies of COVID Complications After Attending Anti-Vaccine ‘Symposium’ (thedailybeast.com)

[the watcher]

 

Good discussion . I've really been pondering on the anti-vax people lately. I actually know alot of them.

One neighbor had fallen into the whole pro-Trump, anti everything, conspiracy crap before Covid so just naturally became anti vax. He seems perfectly okay taking  cancer treatments though. His unvaccinated wife also has a debilitating auto-immune disease.

I know a bright, ambitious business woman who I believe took a real punch in the gut with a business she had just opened prior to Covid. I suspect initially it was a reaction  to having to shut her doors and having reduced clientele  when she was allowed to reopen. She has a close friend who probably heavily influenced her as well.Just a slow slide down the rabbit hole.

I know 2 who I just attribute their decision to a lack of intelligence. 

I know another family that is a really perplexing case. The father is one of the smartest guys I have ever dealt with. His son is a close second. They are incredible business men. Their net worth is hundreds of millions. Their company is on the New York stock exchange. The fathers wife is/ was in hospital with Covid and not doing well the last thing I heard. But they are still anti-vax. I put them down to arrogance.

On a good note there can be change of hearts. The Hutterite colony beside us has decided to vaccinate. I was glad to hear it as they are really good people . Most of the rest that I mentioned will never change.

[TrueBlue4ever]

48 minutes ago, the watcher said:

I know a bright, ambitious business woman who I believe took a real punch in the gut with a business she had just opened prior to Covid. I suspect initially it was a reaction  to having to shut her doors and having reduced clientele  when she was allowed to reopen. She has a close friend who probably heavily influenced her as well.Just a slow slide down the rabbit hole.

This is the weird one to me. I would have thought someone who suffered financially because of lockdowns would jump at the potential cure.

A comedienne named Julie Nolke did a series of online bits describing the pandemic to her past self, pretty clever. In one of the bits her future self shows up and the past version says “oh, you’re back with more bad news. Let me guess, still in lockdown, no vaccines” and the future one says “oh no, we have the vaccines, people just don’t want to take them”. The past self says “wait, people have been protesting the lockdowns and begging for society to get back to normal, now we have the vaccine that is the salvation we have been waiting for, and those same people now don’t want to take it? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face”. 

Here is a link to the video. It is number 5 in the series. The whole set is worth a watch IMO for a good chuckle. 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Tracker]

 

 

                                   

[Mark H.]

14 minutes ago, Tracker said:

 

 

                                   

Yes, this has been going around. In spite of evidence and first hand experience that contradict it. 

[nate007]

1 hour ago, the watcher said:

Their net worth is hundreds of millions. Their company is on the New York stock exchange.

Now you have me wondering... If they are Manitobans, it's limited to a pretty small handful of people. 🤔

[Noeller]

 

 

[WildPath]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

This is the weird one to me. I would have thought someone who suffered financially because of lockdowns would jump at the potential cure.

A comedienne named Julie Nolke did a series of online bits describing the pandemic to her past self, pretty clever. In one of the bits her future self shows up and the past version says “oh, you’re back with more bad news. Let me guess, still in lockdown, no vaccines” and the future one says “oh no, we have the vaccines, people just don’t want to take them”. The past self says “wait, people have been protesting the lockdowns and begging for society to get back to normal, now we have the vaccine that is the salvation we have been waiting for, and those same people now don’t want to take it? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face”. 

Here is a link to the video. It is number 5 in the series. The whole set is worth a watch IMO for a good chuckle. 

 

I have thought similar before - the people most upset with lockdowns should surely be the first in line for vaccinations  and trying to encourage everyone to get vaccinated. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. Those that hate lockdowns and are likely to break lockdown protocol are often the least effected by the negative side effects of lockdowns. Those who take lockdowns seriously and often go beyond government protocol are the ones who most want to go back to normal and will do whatever it takes. Part of their mindset is that they should always be allowed to do whatever they want - don't lock us down, don't make us get vaccinated, don't make have any consequences for our choices.

I also think those who hate lockdowns are also the "F Turd-eau" crowd that have a really hard time connecting to dots between mass vaccination and a return to normal life.

The lack of critical thinking really boggles the mind. I had one of my early years students go on a huge rant about anti-vaxxers today. Hard to imagine kids under 10 can put together a more logical argument than some adults...

[the watcher]

45 minutes ago, WildPath said:

I have thought similar before - the people most upset with lockdowns should surely be the first in line for vaccinations  and trying to encourage everyone to get vaccinated. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. Those that hate lockdowns and are likely to break lockdown protocol are often the least effected by the negative side effects of lockdowns. Those who take lockdowns seriously and often go beyond government protocol are the ones who most want to go back to normal and will do whatever it takes. Part of their mindset is that they should always be allowed to do whatever they want - don't lock us down, don't make us get vaccinated, don't make have any consequences for our choices.

I also think those who hate lockdowns are also the "F Turd-eau" crowd that have a really hard time connecting to dots between mass vaccination and a return to normal life.

The lack of critical thinking really boggles the mind. I had one of my early years students go on a huge rant about anti-vaxxers today. Hard to imagine kids under 10 can put together a more logical argument than some adults...

The whole anti-vax thing is puzzling . But I think the problem is we try to figure out their logic. We just need to accept there is none. 

[Mark H.]

7 hours ago, the watcher said:

The whole anti-vax thing is puzzling . But I think the problem is we try to figure out their logic. We just need to accept there is none. 

There's nothing there, except fallacies:

1. You shouldn't need a second or third dose, it's not normal

2. The body is usually able to heal itself

3. The vaccines will permanently change your DNA

 

[JCon]

Some people would rather die and not get vaccinated, than admit they were wrong. 

It's that anit-vaxx population that disturbs me most. And, I believe, that makes up most of the remaining anti-vaxxers.