Covid-19

[Tracker]

                                                 

[iHeart]

20 hours ago, JCon said:

I'm not sure what's been worse during this pandemic - the dismissal of actual science or the people that have made up their own. People are stupid. 

neither of them are the lesser of two evils

[Mark H.]

21 hours ago, JCon said:

I'm not sure what's been worse during this pandemic - the dismissal of actual science or the people that have made up their own. People are stupid. 

Of course people will make up their own Science if the message is not consistent.  Look back at March 2020 - everyone followed the rules. Think about why that changed. 

[Bigblue204]

12 hours ago, Tracker said:

                                                 

People know that ivermectin is more than just a horse dewormer right? Like there's actual human version/uses for it...I just keep seeing it described as only a horse dewormer and that isn't the whole story. Obviously it does nothing for covid, but it's is a medicine that humans have used for decades now.

[Rich]

37 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

People know that ivermectin is more than just a horse dewormer right? Like there's actual human version/uses for it...I just keep seeing it described as only a horse dewormer and that isn't the whole story. Obviously it does nothing for covid, but it's is a medicine that humans have used for decades now.

In fact, the scientists who developed it won the Nobel Prize for its use in dealing with parasites in Africa.  It has been life changing there.

This is the problem with false narratives that the media keeps on pushing.  Should it be used for Covid?  No.  Does the fact that the media doesn't tell the whole truth and keeps pushing it solely as a horse deworming drug make people believe there is a conspiracy and double down on things like Ivermectin?   Yes.  

There seems to be little to no attempt at unbiased reporting these days.  Everyone is out to push an agenda.

Rogan didn't get the medication from a vet.  His doctor prescribed it, the human version, in human doses.

If there wasn't a spin on this, and the media reported what actually happened here, maybe people wouldn't have stolen the drug from vets, and talked to their own doctor and could have received sound medical advice.

[Goalie]

My sister had covid and she used sleep to recover. Sleep and soup.  Quick. Conspiracy theory that one 

Should Add she was triple vaxxed when she got it also tho so.... 

Perhaps if you aren't vaxxed symptoms and recovery are worse and takes longer. 

Cousins both double vaxxed... sleep and soup. 

Girl 3 houses down... sleep n soup. 

There's a pattern here now... all of them were atleast double vaxxed tho. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Goalie

[JCon]

Funny, the articles I read all pointed out how Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic medicine but that people were buying the horse version and not getting it prescribed.  (Because it's not a treatment for Covid)

I think some people just confuse Twitter with journalism and conflate the two. 

Just like all the other things that people were putting in their bodies to "cure" themselves. 

 

[HardCoreBlue]

29 minutes ago, Rich said:

In fact, the scientists who developed it won the Nobel Prize for its use in dealing with parasites in Africa.  It has been life changing there.

This is the problem with false narratives that the media keeps on pushing.  Should it be used for Covid?  No.  Does the fact that the media doesn't tell the whole truth and keeps pushing it solely as a horse deworming drug make people believe there is a conspiracy and double down on things like Ivermectin?   Yes.  

There seems to be little to no attempt at unbiased reporting these days.  Everyone is out to push an agenda.

Rogan didn't get the medication from a vet.  His doctor prescribed it, the human version, in human doses.

Fair enough.

However what frustrates me is when someone lies and/or disseminates misinformation that hurts others then someone else reports on these lies/misinformation but adds their own narrative on top of that which can be misleading and/or false, the first reaction for some is to deal with the latter first and then it feels like the original lie/misinformation is being exonerated by deflecting the attention to other liars/misleaders.

All I ever hear when some are reacting to stories like this is False narratives everywhere, Bias's, everyone is pushing their own agenda's, everyone lies etc etc and that's where the conversation stops.

It's a perfect scenario for a liar to feel no consequence for their behaviour. 'Look they're lying too!'

My wife and I have two children, a daughter and son. We've all lied, some more impactful then others. We've also exaggerated and/or added misleading information to the original lie. However, most times we have paid a consequence for a lie we have told regardless of another one of us lying as well. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by HardCoreBlue

[Noeller]

"the media"........ 🙄

[Rich]

45 minutes ago, JCon said:

Funny, the articles I read all pointed out how Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic medicine but that people were buying the horse version and not getting it prescribed.  (Because it's not a treatment for Covid)

I think some people just confuse Twitter with journalism and conflate the two. 

Just like all the other things that people were putting in their bodies to "cure" themselves. 

 

Some, sure.  But not all media.  And a lot of this actually goes to headlines.  And while you can claim people should be reading the entire article, we all know if people see something enough times, it starts to get believed.  And that is irresponsible journalism.  A few examples

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/joe-rogan-covid-19-ivermectin-horse-dewormer-1219720/

"‘Crazy Times’: Joe Rogan Got Covid and Ate a Cocktail of Meds Including a Horse Dewormer"

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/joe-rogan-contracts-covid-19-treated-himself-with-horse-dewormer-1235007061/

"Joe Rogan Says He Tested Positive for COVID-19, Takes Unproven Horse Dewormer"

And the worst perpetrator of this was CNN, where even some of their own contributors criticized the network for how it handled and characterized it.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/joe-rogan-cnn-horse-dewormer-covid

https://nypost.com/2021/10/16/cnn-contributor-blasts-network-over-ivermectin-coverage/

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/joe-rogan-considers-suing-cnn-190606533.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10119183/CNN-wont-apologize-bruising-ego-Joe-Rogan-claiming-hed-taken-horse-dewormer.html

Even the FDA had tweets with headlines saying things like you are not a horse or a cow, you shouldn't take Ivermectin.   These are all half trues that when people dig into the larger picture, sow distrust.

 

 

41 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Fair enough.

However what frustrates me is when someone lies and/or disseminates misinformation that hurts others then someone else reports on these lies/misinformation but adds their own narrative on top of that which can be misleading and/or false, the first reaction for some is to deal with the latter first and then it feels like the original lie/misinformation is being exonerated by deflecting the attention to other liars/misleaders.

All I ever hear when some are reacting to stories like this is False narratives everywhere, Bias's, everyone is pushing their own agenda's, everyone lies etc etc and that's where the conversation stops.

It's a perfect scenario for a liar to feel no consequence for their behaviour. 'Look they're lying too!'

My wife and I have two children, a daughter and son. We've all lied, some more impactful then others. We've also exaggerated and/or added misleading information to the original lie. However, most times we have paid a consequence for a lie we have told regardless of another one of us lying as well. 

 

 

I'm not a fan of either people or sides lying or spreading misinformation.   But only one side of this continually gets pushed and spread, so I don't feel the need to re-iterate or bring it up again.

Should Rogan have pushed Ivermectin as a Covid cure?  No.  Absolutely not.  

But the after effects off what happened made the situation worse.  Not better.  The headlines were everywhere at the time.  Where do you think tweets and things like Tracker posted earlier in this thread originally came from?   The was an overabundance of reports that Rogan took horse de-wormer, and then people are surprised people self medicate on horse dewormer?

A more honest headline would be Rogan takes Ivermectin, a parasitic drug not approved for Covid.   And while many news outlets did report along those lines, there were too many that didn't.  CNN being the worst.   It is irresponsible.  

[HardCoreBlue]

23 minutes ago, Rich said:

Some, sure.  But not all media.  And a lot of this actually goes to headlines.  And while you can claim people should be reading the entire article, we all know if people see something enough times, it starts to get believed.  And that is irresponsible journalism.  A few examples

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/joe-rogan-covid-19-ivermectin-horse-dewormer-1219720/

"‘Crazy Times’: Joe Rogan Got Covid and Ate a Cocktail of Meds Including a Horse Dewormer"

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/joe-rogan-contracts-covid-19-treated-himself-with-horse-dewormer-1235007061/

"Joe Rogan Says He Tested Positive for COVID-19, Takes Unproven Horse Dewormer"

And the worst perpetrator of this was CNN, where even some of their own contributors criticized the network for how it handled and characterized it.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/joe-rogan-cnn-horse-dewormer-covid

https://nypost.com/2021/10/16/cnn-contributor-blasts-network-over-ivermectin-coverage/

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/joe-rogan-considers-suing-cnn-190606533.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10119183/CNN-wont-apologize-bruising-ego-Joe-Rogan-claiming-hed-taken-horse-dewormer.html

Even the FDA had tweets with headlines saying things like you are not a horse or a cow, you shouldn't take Ivermectin.   These are all half trues that when people dig into the larger picture, sow distrust.

 

 

I'm not a fan of either people or sides lying or spreading misinformation.   But only one side of this continually gets pushed and spread, so I don't feel the need to re-iterate or bring it up again.

Should Rogan have pushed Ivermectin as a Covid cure?  No.  Absolutely not.  

But the after effects off what happened made the situation worse.  Not better.  The headlines were everywhere at the time.  Where do you think tweets and things like Tracker posted earlier in this thread originally came from?   The was an overabundance of people reporting Rogan took horse de-wormer, and then people are surprised people self medicate on horse dewormer?

A more honest headline would be Rogan takes Ivermectin, a parasitic drug not approved for Covid.   And while many news outlets did report along those lines, there were too many that didn't.  CNN being the worst.   It is irresponsible.  

Nope. I disagree. Just jump on social media whether it's journalists and/or key board warriors.

The problem is it gets convoluted with 'everyone does it, you're just not paying attention if you only present one side, here's the links'.

It's everywhere you look.

Then that one side gets away with it because, even by your own words, we don't feel the need to re-iterate the original lie/spreading of misinformation. The time has come to focus energy and efforts on how do we impose consequences of lying and what needs to happen and less on twitter shaming the lie or follow-up lies on the original lie. 

Left, right, middle pay for for your lies.

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Nope. I disagree. Just jump on social media whether it's journalists and/or key board warriors.

The problem is it gets convoluted with 'everyone does it, you're just not paying attention if you only present one side, here's the links'.

It's everywhere you look.

Then that one side gets away with it because, even by your own words, we don't feel the need to re-iterate the original lie/spreading of misinformation. The time has come to focus energy and efforts on how do we impose consequences of lying and what needs to happen and less on twitter shaming the lie or follow-up lies on the original lie. 

Left, right, middle pay for for your lies.

What exactly don't you agree with?   No where did I say everyone does it.  I presented links because people were claiming it wasn't actual news sites that were pushing the horse de-wormer narrative, that is not true.

If you want people to pay for their lies, those lies need to be exposed and acknowledged first.

Would love to hear how you propose for people to pay for those lies.

[HardCoreBlue]

5 minutes ago, Rich said:

What exactly don't you agree with?   No where did I say everyone does it.  I presented links because people were claiming it wasn't actual news sites that were pushing the horse de-wormer narrative, that is not true.

If you want people to pay for their lies, those lies need to be exposed and acknowledged first.

Would love to hear how you propose for people to pay for those lies.

That's what I don't agree with.

They have indeed been exposed everywhere where you look on social media, the links you provided and numerous other links if one so chooses to access them on the world wide web. All sides are being presented with numerous links and sources valid or not and its being used to distract away from consequences. It's not like you have a hidden source that isn't accessible for others.

As for proposing what needs to be done, this is where the Justice system has failed us miserably and needs to be held more accountable. Completely overhaul the justice system to bring it back to Justice is blind. I know I'm being naïve not easy task but has to be done to help change course on the path we are in now.

First step, reverse all rulings and do not allow news outlets like Fox News, CNN, NewsMax, MSNBC etc etc to get away with the crap they get a way with to make a buck. If they present/imply themselves as a news outlet, do not let let squirm out of their accountability and split hairs by claiming to be an entertainment industry. Hit them in the pocket book for spreading lie/misinformation.   

At the ground floor treat each lie separately. For example, penalize Joe Rogan for spreading lies/misinformation thru punitive damages. Then move on to any industry that has misconstrued what Joe Rogan has done to push their own agenda and hit them with punitive damages. Hit them all in the pocket book where it hurts because ultimately that's what drives the show.

[TrueBlue4ever]

41 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

The time has come to focus energy and efforts on how do we impose consequences of lying and what needs to happen and less on twitter shaming the lie or follow-up lies on the original lie. 

Left, right, middle pay for for your lies.

Nice in theory, but many issues persist:

Who gets to impose the consequences, and who gets to determine what is a lie? One person’s view of what is “fair and balanced” application of the rules is outrageous to the other side, and there will not be consensus on who gets to be the high moral authority that satisfies everyone. The rich guys will get to make the rules. Is Elon Musk really the voice of reason and arbiter of truth and falsehood that everyone is fine with if he starts censoring what he deems to be “lies”?

Also, news is a whole lot of spin, and these modern “journalists” know how to play the game. Look at the issue here: “Ivermectin is a horse de-wormer”. Offence is taken by that characterization because there are human variants, but that phrase is not in and of itself a lie, so really there could be no justifiable consequence on that basis. Now, does the spin lead to some oversimplification and potential for inaccuracy? Of course, but it isn’t a lie so it does it’s job of creating an idea of stupidity for those who use it without actually lying, so mission completely accomplished without presenting a patent falsehood. Also, commentators like Tucker Carlson have mastered the art of provoking without actually saying anything, but just asking questions so they can deny having lied. If I posed the question “Has HardCoreBlue stopped beating his wife yet?” The implication is clear but I haven’t actually told a lie, because hey I’m only asking a question - so I can get away with suggesting pretty much any stupid thing and not be called a liar on a technicality.

Third, shaming those who lie really accomplishes nothing. Trump had over 30,000 documented lies in his Presidency, and whenever he got called out for it, it only emboldened his supporters and him to double down. And short attention spans today mean that no one cares enough expend the time and energy to tear down the lie. In the last month, news has been dominated by Roe v Wade, Ginni Thomas’s texts, Cawthorn’s comments, pics and videos, MTG and Depp/Heard trials, SCOTUS leak, Meadows texts - hey, do we even get updates on COVID or an actual war in Ukraine as front page news anymore?

And the media has no desire to stop all this noise. They are there to sell papers or ad time, not worry about “the truth and nothing but the truth”. It is big business, and talking heads with loud opinions is what makes business work now. As CBS president Les Moonvees said about Trump’s election run in 2020 “It may not be good for America, but it’s damn good for CBS”. Fox, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC et al surely agree. 

It all boils down to expecting people to have integrity and do the right thing for others. That world seems to be long gone in many ways. I can’t imagine how badly JFK’s “ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” speech would play today. People would be screaming about the Government’s responsibility to act for the people and not the other way around and how self-interested he was and what a betrayal to his oath it was, rather than being inspired to devote time to public service as was intended and received at the time. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Rich]

17 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

That's what I don't agree with.

They have indeed been exposed everywhere where you look on social media, the links you provided and numerous other links if one so chooses to access them on the world wide web. All sides are being presented with numerous links and sources valid or not and its being used to distract away from consequences. It's not like you have a hidden source that isn't accessible for others.

As for proposing what needs to be done, this is where the Justice system has failed us miserably and needs to be held more accountable. Completely overhaul the justice system to bring it back to Justice is blind. I know I'm being naïve not easy task but has to be done to help change course on the path we are in now.

First step, reverse all rulings and do not allow news outlets like Fox News, CNN, NewsMax, MSNBC etc etc to get away with the crap they get a way with to make a buck. If they present/imply themselves as a news outlet, do not let let squirm out of their accountability and split hairs by claiming to be an entertainment industry. Hit them in the pocket book for spreading lie/misinformation.   

At the ground floor treat each lie separately. For example, penalize Joe Rogan for spreading lies/misinformation thru punitive damages. Then move on to any industry that has misconstrued what Joe Rogan has done to push their own agenda and hit them with punitive damages. Hit them all in the pocket book where it hurts because ultimately that's what drives the show.

In theory, I think we are in agreement on a very base level, with this:

Quote

First step, reverse all rulings and do not allow news outlets like Fox News, CNN, NewsMax, MSNBC etc etc to get away with the crap they get a way with to make a buck. If they present/imply themselves as a news outlet, do not let let squirm out of their accountability and split hairs by claiming to be an entertainment industry. Hit them in the pocket book for spreading lie/misinformation.   

In reality,  I don't know how to make this happen without some central body who decides what is crap and what isn't.  And if history has taught me anything, that is a disaster waiting to happen.  So I really don't know how to make that happen without other dire, and quite possibly worse unintended consequences.

And for this:

Quote

They have indeed been exposed everywhere where you look on social media, the links you provided and numerous other links if one so chooses to access them on the world wide web. All sides are being presented with numerous links and sources valid or not and its being used to distract away from consequences. It's not like you have a hidden source that isn't accessible for others.

I'm curious why I'm the only one you've singled out for posting links that anyone can find online, when there are numerous links, tweets, memes, articles posted daily by many people in these forums.  

I'd also suggest these links that are shared are needed for any kind of discussion around them to occur.  That is indeed the main purpose of a place like this?

[Bigblue204]

Just to complicate things a bit. As far as I know Rogan never lied/spread misinformation. He said he got covid, went to his doctor who prescribed many medications including ivermectin and then he got better. I don't believe he ever claimed ivermectin made him better. (Though I could be wrong about that)

So this is where things get very cloudy. Yes by default he's basically implying ivermectin helped him beat covid....but he never actually says it. So how do you punish someone for the way his words could be interpreted?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Bigblue204

[Rich]

36 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Just to complicate things a bit. As far as I know Rogan never lied/spread misinformation. He said he got covid, went to his doctor who prescribed many medications including ivermectin and then he got better. I don't believe he ever claimed ivermectin made him better. (Though I could be wrong about that)

So this is where things get very cloudy. Yes by default he's basically implying ivermectin helped him beat covid....but he never actually says it. So how do you punish someone for the way his words could be interpreted?

You are correct.  Rogan talked about a number of things that were prescribed for treatment, and has probably sung the praises of Monoclonal antibodies as treatment more than Ivermectin.

The problem with Rogan, is he has had on his show at least one physician who explicitly pushed Ivermectin as a treatment for Covid.  This is where things get grey for me.  The person who he had on, appeared to have the credentials to be an expert in their field, so I don't know if that is a voice that should be entirely silenced.  However, their evidence was more circumstantial then would typically be looked for in actual clinical trials.  

Also by the guests he had on, he appeared to be one sided and slanted towards the use of Ivermectin.  It wasn't until there was an outcry and probably some pressure from Spotify, that he had on qualified guests with a differing view.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

Just to complicate things a bit. As far as I know Rogan never lied/spread misinformation. He said he got covid, went to his doctor who prescribed many medications including ivermectin and then he got better. I don't believe he ever claimed ivermectin made him better. (Though I could be wrong about that)

So this is where things get very cloudy. Yes by default he's basically implying ivermectin helped him beat covid....but he never actually says it. So how do you punish someone for the way his words could be interpreted?

No ethical medical doctor would prescribe Ivermectin for COVID infection. As soon as it was proposed by the nutball fringe, doctors were reminded that such would be "off-label"- not approved for treating COVID. If a medical doctor does this, they would be subject to censure by their medical associations and liable to criminal and civil prosecution. There are very strong prohibitions against off-label drug usage. For people suffering from melancholic treatment-resistant depression (TRD) there was very credible but anecdotal evidence that Ketamine can provide relief when all other measure have failed. I has a patient who was suffering from TRD and had done so for so long that he was actively considering suicide as this had gone on for years and his life was unbearable. I could not find any doctor to prescribe Ketamine despite the acute ideation. Promising trials were underway in New York and Ottawa but nothing locally. 

Long story short, he found some from the street and it did relieve the depression and he was able to have a life. And it still not approved.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Tracker

[blue_gold_84]

32 minutes ago, Rich said:

You are correct.  Rogan talked about a number of things that were prescribed for treatment, and has probably sung the praises of Monoclonal antibodies as treatment more than Ivermectin.

The problem with Rogan, is he has had on his show at least one physician who explicitly pushed Ivermectin as a treatment for Covid.  This is where things get grey for me.  The person who he had on, appeared to have the credentials to be an expert in their field, so I don't know if that is a voice that should be entirely silenced.  However, their evidence was more circumstantial then would typically be looked for in actual clinical trials.  

Also by the guests he had on, he appeared to be one sided and slanted towards the use of Ivermectin.  It wasn't until there was an outcry and probably some pressure from Spotify, that he had on qualified guests with a differing view.

The two "expert" guests were Robert Malone and Peter McCullough, and both were guilty of spreading misinformation and outright lies on Rogan's podcast and on social media, using their credentials with pretty malicious intent.

[Rich]

28 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

The two "expert" guests were Robert Malone and Peter McCullough, and both were guilty of spreading misinformation and outright lies on Rogan's podcast and on social media, using their credentials with pretty malicious intent.

Pierre Kory is the one I was thinking of.   He has been the biggest proponent of pushing Ivermectin.  

[iHeart]

Day 3 of COVID in the house, still tested negative  so at least I could go out, however I have opted to stock up on medical essentials (Neocitran, Benylin,  and Cephocol)

[JCon]

Just now, iHeart said:

Day 3 of COVID in the house, still tested negative  so at least I could go out, however I have opted to stock up on medical essentials (Neocitran, Benylin,  and Cephocol)

Have you been to the vet? 

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

In theory, I think we are in agreement on a very base level, with this:

In reality,  I don't know how to make this happen without some central body who decides what is crap and what isn't.  And if history has taught me anything, that is a disaster waiting to happen.  So I really don't know how to make that happen without other dire, and quite possibly worse unintended consequences.

And for this:

I'm curious why I'm the only one you've singled out for posting links that anyone can find online, when there are numerous links, tweets, memes, articles posted daily by many people in these forums.  

I'd also suggest these links that are shared are needed for any kind of discussion around them to occur.  That is indeed the main purpose of a place like this?

Not singling you out, I'm just suggesting we're sometimes focused on the wrong thing, i.e., spend less time and energy on constantly exposing these lies and more on what the consequences of all these lies should be.

I don't know why you would throw this (the second bolded part). Of course this is the purpose of a place like this, I'm just suggesting to evolve the discussion beyond exposing everyone's lies and their misleading info and to focus more on discussing what we need to do about it. But at the end of the day this is a discussion forum and people can choose to discuss what they want. 

[iHeart]

12 minutes ago, JCon said:

Have you been to the vet? 

I would if I had any furbabies in the house

[Wideleft]

7 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

People know that ivermectin is more than just a horse dewormer right? Like there's actual human version/uses for it...I just keep seeing it described as only a horse dewormer and that isn't the whole story. Obviously it does nothing for covid, but it's is a medicine that humans have used for decades now.

Anyone who has been paying the least bit of attention knows this.  The reality is that people were taking actual horse de-wormer to prevent/treat COVID-19.  

Anything that followed this post in this thread just convolutes the history of this conspiracy theory.  People making excuses for Rogan and blaming media just seem reluctant to stick to the facts at hand.  I really don't understand why that is so hard.

Also, Joe Rogan is a meathead and we still don't have any proof that he actually had COVID.