Least favourite non-Bomber

[Goldkobra]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

See i don't hate Allen at all. I just think he is over rated. I would take Calvillo over Allen any day and twice on Sundays.... Allen was never a guy who would be my first choice at qb in any era he played in. That he played a long time and piled up a lot of stats over that time doesn't change that fact.

Would pick prime Damon Allen over prime Kevin Glenn? I think i would. 

[Brandon]

10 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I have no idea what your point is. Do you actually think Westwood is Top 5? 

He's top 5 in all time field goals kicked and played in the league for nearly 20 years.   Therefore automatic legend.     My point is that just because you played a very long time does not make you elite.    

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, Goldkobra said:

Would pick prime Damon Allen over prime Kevin Glenn? I think i would. 

I'd pick Chris Streveler over a prime Kevin Glenn....  that bar is not very high. 

Would you pick a prime Damon Allen over a prime Ricky Ray... hell no.  

[Mr Dee]

18 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I'd pick Chris Streveler over a prime Kevin Glenn....  that bar is not very high. 

C’mon..

[Brandon]

8 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

C’mon..

One has a Grey Cup ring and the other does not!   If you read above that is all that matters.  

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

He's top 5 in all time field goals kicked and played in the league for nearly 20 years.   Therefore automatic legend.     My point is that just because you played a very long time does not make you elite.    

I know & I don't disagree. But getting back to Damon Allen how can anyone say he wasn't elite when he won 3 Grey Cups with 3 different teams & was the CFL's leading passer with over 72,000 yards for 11 years? Saying the only reason he got those stats is because he played a long time is totally inaccurate. He got those numbers because he was a damned good qb. He wouldn't have played that long for all of his head coaches if he didn't have talent.

Allen wasn't fiery. He didn't wear his emotions on his sleeve like Matt Dunigan. He wasn't a screamer or a yeller. He was a quiet leader who let his play on the field do the talking. He had so much talent & smarts that the game was easy to him. To some fans it looked like he was disinterested at times but that was just his personality.  Like I said, I'd take Damon Allen over Anthony Calvillo as my stating qb ten times out of 10. 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

I'd pick Chris Streveler over a prime Kevin Glenn....  that bar is not very high. 

Would you pick a prime Damon Allen over a prime Ricky Ray... hell no.  

Maybe...

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

One has a Grey Cup ring and the other does not!   If you read above that is all that matters.  

Not really. Zach Collaros played extremely well on that Grey Cup run. He deserves as much credit for that GC win as does Chris Streveler.

Put Streveler as the starter with the Bombers & we're 7-11 at best & 5-12 at worst. Put Glenn as the starter & we're 13-5 or 11-7 at worst but not necessarily champs without Streveler. He's at his best in at key situations when the offense has bogged down. Or we need a spark to get going & then he's money. Not money as a starter, though He doesn't have it as the starter. Streveler's strength was coming off the bench on short yardage or goal line, throw a few passes & terrorize the defense for a couple of series with his running ability. Enough to change the momentum of a game. In other words, a situational qb. But he's not a starting qb.  I don't think he ever will be. We'll see how he is used in Arizona. 

[Brandon]

Allen has great stats because he played for a very long time during an era where people could easily put up gaudy numbers.  I'm not saying he's some kind of bum and I'd pick Allen over Glenn for sure.   I don't think at any point during his career Allen was looked upon as the best QB in the CFL. 

My point is that Troy Westwood has some nice numbers because he did play for a long time at a decent level... but I'd never rank him near the top of greatest kickers. 

I used Strev as an example because just because someone has a GC ring does not automatically make them elite or great.  I can't comment on Allen's grey cup wins or play because I have not watched the games and have no idea if he played on stacked teams or if he was carrying the team himself. 

During his later years everyone referenced Allen as being that old guy who is still healthy enough to play... rarely did they say THIS GUY IS elite and he's Doug Flutie level of dominant.  The story was mostly about him being in healthy shape that he could still play at an old age.  His last grey cup run was probably his best season and because of that one season he may be talked about being an all time top 10 qb... but if not for that season he was definitely looked upon as journeyman qb who played in the CFL for a long time (like Kevin Glenn). 

I can't speak for old time QB's as I didn't watch them and can not offer a valid opinion... but in the last 30 years of the CFL I'd have Allen rank probably in the 15 - 20 range. 

Off the top of my head....

Flutie, Garcia, Dickenson,  Ray, Calvillo,  Reilly,  Dunigan,  Burris,  BLM ,  McManus, Khari, Ham, Durant,  Harris.... all I would put ahead of him. 

I think people fall in love with the fact that Allen could run and because he played for so long.  Lots of the media love hyping him nowdays after he played.... but when he did play I rarely remember them saying he was the best....

[Noeller]

Kevin Glenn at his best was an extremely good QB. Far better than anything Streveler ever showed. I remember really liking Glenn when he entered the league with Sask and was stoked we got him to be the heir apparent to Khari. By 2007 he was fantastic a legit MOP candidate and should have a GC ring from that year of not for Kevin Eiben (or more appropriately, if not for Charlie fumbling the handoff)...... 

[17to85]

Honestly the only reason I don't take Glenn over Allen is the fact that Glenn's post season record is so poor. That's the only real difference between the two of them. Decent qbs but glenn had that mental block in the playoffs.

[Esks1975]

2005 was one of Allen's later years. One in which he passed for over 5,000 yards, had 467 rushing yards and was the CFL Most Valuable Player. He was more durable than many in that list of quarterbacks that Brandon listed. 

I would take Allen over Glenn because when you stopped Glenn's quick passing game it was all over for him. Allen could by time and get yards on his own. He wouldn't be the third leading rusher of all time if he couldn't.

[Eternal optimist]

5 hours ago, Brandon said:

One has a Grey Cup ring and the other does not!   If you read above that is all that matters.  

He's got nothing on the legendary Paul Woldu... guy was also a 3x Grey Cup champ and is automatically better... apparently.

 

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, Esks1975 said:

He was more durable than many in that list of quarterbacks that Brandon listed.

Proving my point that the love for him is that he played a long time and remained healthy.

Purely based on skills and at their best.... the others I mentioned above were better. 

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, Brandon said:

Proving my point that the love for him is that he played a long time and remained healthy.

Purely based on skills and at their best.... the others I mentioned above were better. 

You're point isn't proven at all. In fact your argument absolutely makes no sense. 

[Brandon]

11 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

You're point isn't proven at all. In fact your argument absolutely makes no sense. 

I'm guessing you didn't read anything above?

I quoted Esks1975 as his only description of why Damon Allen was a better qb then the guys on my list was because he stayed durable....   

For yourself you keep referencing his stats and how he played for so long on so many different teams. At no point did you mention anything about his skillset.   You keep bringing up Grey Cup rings....  I brought up that Milt Stegall has zero grey cup rings and despite having no rings he is looked upon as the best or at least top 3 WR in the league of all time.  Grey Cup rings are nice but it doesn't indicate that a player is amazing.  Chris Streveler has a grey cup ring... I don't consider him elite... he played on a team that won the cup and he was a small part of why that team won.   I brought up Troy Westwood he has amazing career stats for a kicker.... he lasted 20 years.... must mean coaches saw something in him  based on your own comment.  Nobody is going to say Troy Westwood is the best or even near the top echelon of kickers in CFL history.   Westwood shows up near the top of all kicking career stats but that's only because he played more games then others.  

I brought up the Media.... they over rate Allen big time and keep bringing up how he lasted a long time in the league as the reasoning for his greatness.  TSN top 50 all time players had Allen near the top over guys like Ray and Calvillo.... the media clearly are on crack.  I guess that would be the most subjective of my points but come on now they have guys like Darren Flutie in top 50 of all time they clearly have zero clue.  

Nobody mentioned above about how Allen had great passing mechanics,  how he could overtake games, elevate the players around him,  had a rocket arm,  great accuracy  etc... etc....  Only mention his career stats and how he stayed durable which proves my point. 

 

 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

I'm guessing you didn't read anything above?

I quoted Esks1975 as his only description of why Damon Allen was a better qb then the guys on my list was because he stayed durable....   

For yourself you keep referencing his stats and how he played for so long on so many different teams. At no point did you mention anything about his skillset.   You keep bringing up Grey Cup rings....  I brought up that Milt Stegall has zero grey cup rings and despite having no rings he is looked upon as the best or at least top 3 WR in the league of all time.  Grey Cup rings are nice but it doesn't indicate that a player is amazing.  Chris Streveler has a grey cup ring... I don't consider him elite... he played on a team that won the cup and he was a small part of why that team won.   I brought up Troy Westwood he has amazing career stats for a kicker.... he lasted 20 years.... must mean coaches saw something in him  based on your own comment.  Nobody is going to say Troy Westwood is the best or even near the top echelon of kickers in CFL history.   Westwood shows up near the top of all kicking career stats but that's only because he played more games then others.  

I brought up the Media.... they over rate Allen big time and keep bringing up how he lasted a long time in the league as the reasoning for his greatness.  TSN top 50 all time players had Allen near the top over guys like Ray and Calvillo.... the media clearly are on crack.  I guess that would be the most subjective of my points but come on now they have guys like Darren Flutie in top 50 of all time they clearly have zero clue.  

Nobody mentioned above about how Allen had great passing mechanics,  how he could overtake games, elevate the players around him,  had a rocket arm,  great accuracy  etc... etc....  Only mention his career stats and how he stayed durable which proves my point. 

 

 

So, now you're a qb coach giving us your assessments of Allen's mechanics? I doubt if you could critique the difference between the way Matt Nichols throws compared to Ricky Ray & what their strengths & weaknesses are. Saying that, I'd be interested in your critique of Allen's throwing mechanics & what his flaws were. What you think prevented him from being considered elite in your eyes. 

Your argument about longevity is only one part of it. QBs have to play a long time in order to win a number of championships. It took Tom Brady nearly 20 years to win 6 Super Bowl championships. But he did it with just one team. Not 3. For some reason you've latched onto that as your only argument for greatness.

I have read your comments but the problem I have is I don't know how serious you are about them. Whether playing a long time actually means something to you or not. When you throw Troy Westwood's name out there as an example, I begin to wonder.  He played a long time & was good enough to play a lot of years but I'd never put his name up there with Justin Medlock or Rene Paredes.  He had too many big misses in big games when the Bombers counted on him to come through & at times he didn't. 

You say nobody ever talks about how Allen elevated his game & made his teammates better around him??? I don't know how you can even say that as the subject came up a lot back when he played.  He did play very well in the playoffs & he did make his teammates better. Being a multi championship qb means you do elevate others around you to new heights. That's what playing for 3 different teams & winning four  championships with those teams does. Being able to adapt to a different city, team, players, coaching & offensive systems. As well as making everyone better.

Look up some of the greats who played. Bernie Faloney won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Edmonton & Hamilton. Ron Lancaster won 3 Grey Cups with  2 teams. Ottawa & Saskatchewan. Jerry Keeling won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Ottawa. Henry Burris won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Ottawa RedBlacks. Tom Clements won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Ottawa Rough Riders & Winnipeg. Tracy Ham won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams.  Edmonton & Baltimore. Matt Dunigan won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Edmonton & Toronto.  Doug Flutie won 3 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Toronto. Ricky Ray won 4 Grey Cups with two teams. Two each with Edmonton & Toronto. 

Winning 4 championships with 3 different CFL teams is a rare feat among CFL qbs over the years. Done only one once by Allen. Which is what makes him elite. Now, maybe I missed somebody & there's another CFL qb who won at least 4 Grey Cups with 3 different teams during his career but I doubt it. The stats don't lie. Especially at the qb position. Like a pitcher in baseball & a goaltender in hockey, it's all about the stats. The Vezina Trophy in hockey & Cy Young Award in baseball. That is how the greats are judged. Longevity is a part of it but not all of it.  Championships define quarterbacking & so is winning 4 times with 3 different teams.

I mentioned Allen's career stats because you can't ignore them even though you have tried. Or is that part of your fake news bit here? If you don't mention his stats does it means they never actually happened? Like the modus operandi of a certain President of the United States with orange hair?  😉

That Damon Allen was just this guy who fluked out 22 years in the CFL as a starter stumbling from team to team. He was just this flawed qb with lousy mechanics who managed to somehow throw for over 72,000 yards, had over 11,000 yards rushing & won 4 Grey Cups with 3 different teams. He was the Grey Cup MVP 3 times while being the league's all time leading passer for 12 seasons.  To you, that's not elite but Allen was just lucky & overrated???

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by SpeedFlex27

[17to85]

12 hours ago, Esks1975 said:

2005 was one of Allen's later years. One in which he passed for over 5,000 yards, had 467 rushing yards and was the CFL Most Valuable Player. He was more durable than many in that list of quarterbacks that Brandon listed. 

I would take Allen over Glenn because when you stopped Glenn's quick passing game it was all over for him. Allen could by time and get yards on his own. He wouldn't be the third leading rusher of all time if he couldn't.

You just picked the one year Allen legit had any kind  of really notable season... seriously one year. 

Given your user name i have no doubts you're just pumping the tires of everyone who came through those Edmonton teams, but i am right about Damon Allen. There is no shame in it. Guy still has a well earned status in this league because of his longevity, but he ain't one of the top qbs to come through this league. Not by a long shot.

[17to85]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

So, now you're a qb coach giving us your assessments of Allen's mechanics? I doubt if you could critique the difference between the way Matt Nichols throws compared to Ricky Ray & what their strengths & weaknesses are. Saying that, I'd be interested in your critique of Allen's throwing mechanics & what his flaws were. What you think prevented him from being considered elite in your eyes. 

Your argument about longevity is only one part of it. QBs have to play a long time in order to win a number of championships. It took Tom Brady nearly 20 years to win 6 Super Bowl championships. But he did it with just one team. Not 3. For some reason you've latched onto that as your only argument for greatness.

I have read your comments but the problem I have is I don't know how serious you are about them. Whether playing a long time actually means something to you or not. When you throw Troy Westwood's name out there as an example, I begin to wonder.  He played a long time & was good enough to play a lot of years but I'd never put his name up there with Justin Medlock or Rene Paredes.  He had too many big misses in big games when the Bombers counted on him to come through & at times he didn't. 

You say nobody ever talks about how Allen elevated his game & made his teammates better around him??? I don't know how you can even say that as the subject came up a lot back when he played.  He did play very well in the playoffs & he did make his teammates better. Being a multi championship qb means you do elevate others around you to new heights. That's what playing for 3 different teams & winning four  championships with those teams does. Being able to adapt to a different city, team, players, coaching & offensive systems. As well as making everyone better.

Look up some of the greats who played. Bernie Faloney won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Edmonton & Hamilton. Ron Lancaster won 3 Grey Cups with  2 teams. Ottawa & Saskatchewan. Jerry Keeling won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Ottawa. Henry Burris won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Ottawa RedBlacks. Tom Clements won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Ottawa Rough Riders & Winnipeg. Tracy Ham won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams.  Edmonton & Baltimore. Matt Dunigan won 2 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Edmonton & Toronto.  Doug Flutie won 3 Grey Cups with 2 teams. Calgary & Toronto. Ricky Ray won 4 Grey Cups with two teams. Two each with Edmonton & Toronto. 

Winning 4 championships with 3 different CFL teams is a rare feat among CFL qbs over the years. Done only one once by Allen. Which is what makes him elite. Now, maybe I missed somebody & there's another CFL qb who won at least 4 Grey Cups with 3 different teams during his career but I doubt it. The stats don't lie. Especially at the qb position. Like a pitcher in baseball & a goaltender in hockey, it's all about the stats. The Vezina Trophy in hockey & Cy Young Award in baseball. That is how the greats are judged. Longevity is a part of it but not all of it.  Championships define quarterbacking & so is winning 4 times with 3 different teams.

I mentioned Allen's career stats because you can't ignore them even though you have tried. Or is that part of your fake news bit here? If you don't mention his stats does it means they never actually happened? Like the modus operandi of a certain President of the United States with orange hair?  😉

That Damon Allen was just this guy who fluked out 22 years in the CFL as a starter stumbling from team to team. He was just this flawed qb with lousy mechanics who managed to somehow throw for over 72,000 yards, had over 11,000 yards rushing & won 4 Grey Cups with 3 different teams. He was the Grey Cup MVP 3 times while being the league's all time leading passer for 12 seasons.  To you, that's not elite but Allen was just lucky & overrated???

 

you criticize a guy for one argument and the  use your one argument to disprove it... 

Also you are taking this over rated comment too seriously and imagining it to be something it's not. 

If Damon Allen really was this elite qb why were teams always looking to move on from him and upgrade? Seriously he was good but not great for a long long time. He did have playoff success which is a huge feather in his cap, but it doesn't make him one of the greatest. You act like the multiple team thing is a mark in his favour but all it does is prove the point that he was over rated.

[Brandon]

Allen was disposable because when he played he wasn't the best and teams had better options elsewhere.  .... most high quality QB's don't bounce around the league.

In recent history when Ray was traded to Toronto it was a shocking event and the most unbelievable stupid move by Edmonton... Calvillo never left Montreal because they knew if they lost him they wouldn't contend (as shown when he retired).   BLM was paid an insane sum for Calgary to keep him.   The only QB's that would bounce team to team  (Glenn) were always on the move because their were always better options available to replace him.   These guys were to valuable to bounce around unlike Allen.   

Also note I've never said Allen was a bum... he just isn't in the same league as the elite guys.  

[17to85]

And Damon Allen is a cfl legend. He's just not one of the best qbs this league has seen.

[SpeedFlex27]

12 hours ago, 17to85 said:

you criticize a guy for one argument and the  use your one argument to disprove it... 

Also you are taking this over rated comment too seriously and imagining it to be something it's not. 

If Damon Allen really was this elite qb why were teams always looking to move on from him and upgrade? Seriously he was good but not great for a long long time. He did have playoff success which is a huge feather in his cap, but it doesn't make him one of the greatest. You act like the multiple team thing is a mark in his favour but all it does is prove the point that he was over rated.

Allen did what all players do. There is unlimited free agency in the CFL & there was back when he played. He moved from team to team for more money. It had nothing to do with him not being any good, uncoachable or overrated. It had everything to do with being paid as much as he could get. Just like any CFL veteran player wants. As far as me using one argument, I assume you mean stats. Well, stats don't lie & they don't play favourites. If you play like **** then chances are your stats will be ****. How many qbs do we know put up great regular seasons but choke in the playoffs??? Allen saved his best for the playoffs & Grey Cups.  That's what the stats tell me.  That is their story. 

[Mr Dee]

Do you know how many teams in the last few years who would have jumped at the opportunity to sign someone like Damon Allen...

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

Do you know how many teams in the last few years who would have jumped at the opportunity to sign someone like Damon Allen...

No kidding.

[johnzo]

On 2020-07-08 at 4:36 PM, MOBomberFan said:

DC had/has crazy talent. In the back of my mind I've often wondered if O'Shea and co. could slap some polish on that turd and make him a legit CFL receiver. Probably not worth even trying at this point...

you go back and look at Andrew Harris' best runs with the Blue, there is almost always a receiver and sometimes two or three busting their ass to spring him.

what is the place for Duron Carter in this scenario?