CFL/XFL Exploring Alignment

[bryan35]

Could always watch CIS or Junior football in the meantime.

[Noeller]

12 minutes ago, bryan35 said:

Could always watch CIS or Junior football in the meantime.

I would definitely become a much bigger Bisons fan...

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, bryan35 said:

Could always watch CIS or Junior football in the meantime.

How long before they switch the rules too? I would be the following year.

[Goalie]

I think if they wanted to truly be an alternative of sorts to the NFL..  they keep the 3 downs. 

 

[M.Silverback]

Excellent insights and analysis from Dave Naylor.

https://youtu.be/OTGQpdluvbY

 

[SpeedFlex27]

41 minutes ago, Goalie said:

I think if they wanted to truly be an alternative of sorts to the NFL..  they keep the 3 downs. 

 

What would be the advantage of playing 3 downs if players want to play 4 downs? And if fans don't watch U Sports now they won't suddenly start. 

[Jpan85]

people get two caught up in the downs. The more important rules in my opinion are the special teams rules, timing rules , motions and the yard off the ball. If they kept all those and it was four downs I would have no problem.

[JCon]

43 minutes ago, M.Silverback said:

Excellent insights and analysis from Dave Naylor.

https://youtu.be/OTGQpdluvbY

 

Gawd, that's depressing. 

[Noeller]

9 minutes ago, JCon said:

Gawd, that's depressing. 

Yep, I thought it was terrible, personally...

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Yep, I thought it was terrible, personally...

It's all true but it hurts. 

 

Why didn't anyone tell me I was dead?

[Noeller]

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

It's all true but it hurts. 

 

Why didn't anyone tell me I was dead?

right? Apparently I don't exist as a demographic. Apparently the CFL is dying in the West as well as totally dead in the East.......apparently. 

[JCon]

It makes you wonder why anyone would put money into this league? Why would RedBird put money in?

The CFL has as good of a TV deal as they can get. You're not going to add a US network for any money. The timing doesn't work for the US (late spring start, fall end) - it just conflicts with the NFL and NCAA.

You can't start much earlier in Canada, can you? Maybe an April training camp with a May start? Still takes you into October. Can you do training camp in March with an April start? Who wants to watch a game outdoors in April? Certainly not more than watch now. Yes, October/November is the same conditions but that's the end of the season and playoffs - much more entertaining.  

Edited March 19, 2021 by JCon

[wbbfan]

3 hours ago, 17to85 said:

I will fight anyone that claims the CFL rules are inferior. And quite frankly I can't see myself caring anywhere close to as much about a 4 down CFL.

I see a lot of people using the excuse that the nfl is more entertaining than ever, but like tim said in that video its gotten better because they have adapted more of our style of play. A few of the rules im not too worried about. The 55 yard line, and the rouge on the missed fg for instance. If we went down to a 100 yard long field we would see a more engaging kicking game imo. Teams would try more long field goals and be in scoring range quicker.  And the single point on the missed field goal wouldnt effect the returning of missed FGs, because its still a huge opportunity to score.

But out side of that we have a lot of tremendous advantages that make our game much much more entertaining to watch. 

3 hours ago, Mr Dee said:

If the XFL wants to be truly unique, they should adopt our rules..all of them..with adaptions for field sizes.
Could they handle it?
The only caveat is that only the CFL teams play for the Grey Cup.
They can play for their own.

Other than that, let’s wrap up the CFL, and give it a proper send away, not part of another failed US attempt at being professional.

Then we simply set up a lower level Canadian game..

I dont like the XFL could if they wanted to. They dont have their own infrastructure. I dont think most places they play could be adapted to the CFL field with out considerable work, and the owners wont do that as they already see use for american football rules. 

[M.Silverback]

47 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Yep, I thought it was terrible, personally...

It’s not great news. But his insights and analysis of the situation were excellent. I’d rather have a reality check. 

36 minutes ago, JCon said:

It makes you wonder why anyone would put money into this league? Why would RedBird put money in?

The CFL has as good of a TV deal as they can get. You're not going to add a US network for any money. The timing doesn't work for the US (late spring start, fall end) - it just conflicts with the NFL and NCAA.

You can't start much earlier in Canada, can you? Maybe an April training camp with a May start? Still takes you into October. Can you do training camp in March with an April start? Who wants to watch a game outdoors in April? Certainly not more than watch now. Yes, October/November is the same conditions but that's the end of the season and playoffs - much more entertaining.  

Great questions! I think based on Naylor a big driver of this is gambling. Football gambling is huge, and filling a gap between the NFL season might be the thing. I know people that live in England that bet on the NFL every week! 

[wbbfan]

I wonder if the deal could possibly end up being the XFL season ends before the cfl season begins, and the XFL gets access to sign CFL players for their own season. Kind of like the old arena league stuff where guys would go down to the AFL then come back up part way through the cfl season. 

And for that ability the XFL would include a couple CFL games in its national US tv deal (LDC, grey cup, grey cup re match at the start of the year) As well as perhaps an interest free loan coming our way.  Maybe, its more than just players. Maybe some front office types or even coaches would help in getting the XFL up and running. 

Maybe thats why the XFL season cancellations were pending the CFL discussions. 

Its a huge risk for the players and the teams, it was really hard on a lot of the guys who played a season of AFL and half a season of CFL back in the day. 

[wbbfan]

2 hours ago, M.Silverback said:

Excellent insights and analysis from Dave Naylor.

https://youtu.be/OTGQpdluvbY

 

Idk that comes off like hes been long convinced the CFL game was doomed and is fine with the death of the cfl.  Comes off like he would rather be covering american football. Especially the part where he thinks its a foregone conclusion that the majority of canadians would rather watch NFL. 

I didnt see any of this talk of impending doom and gloom and unsustainability from him prior to covid.  If im wrong, please some one post the article I dont by any means read all of his work. 

I dont think its sustainable to carry a team and their loses like TO and MTL. Its also not sustainable to have no in game revenue. But I dont think those are an issue going forward. It isnt going to be a multi year thing of no fans in the stands, and TO has deep pocket owners now and MTL is in a good space. Not great situations, they need some better venues but sustainable yes. 

[Bigblue204]

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Idk that comes off like hes been long convinced the CFL game was doomed and is fine with the death of the cfl.  Comes off like he would rather be covering american football. Especially the part where he thinks its a foregone conclusion that the majority of canadians would rather watch NFL. 

I didnt see any of this talk of impending doom and gloom and unsustainability from him prior to covid.  If im wrong, please some one post the article I dont by any means read all of his work. 

I dont think its sustainable to carry a team and their loses like TO and MTL. Its also not sustainable to have no in game revenue. But I dont think those are an issue going forward. It isnt going to be a multi year thing of no fans in the stands, and TO has deep pocket owners now and MTL is in a good space. Not great situations, they need some better venues but sustainable yes. 

I agree with you that Naylor has been down on the CFL since this came about. I completely disagree with the bolded statement though.

Attendance has been dropping league wide for a few years now. Thats a problem.

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

I agree with you that Naylor has been down on the CFL since this came about. I completely disagree with the bolded statement though.

Attendance has been dropping league wide for a few years now. Thats a problem.

Every home game is televised for every team. The price point of tickets & concessions is so expensive that people stay home rather than go to games now. Teams have refused to lower ticket prices to sell these empty seats in every stadium across the CFL.

Empty seats should represent an opportunity for  increased revenues. I never understood the logic of having a seat priced at $50 or more sit empty all season. Not only is it lost ticket revenue for the team but also lost concession & merch revenue. Wouldn't it make more sense to charge $15-20 to get butts in the seats where people spend money rather than having vast sections of seats sit empty game after game?? How many hundreds of thousands to millions does each team lose per season when stadiums are at 60% or lower in capacity? Calgary has 35,000 seats but averages 23,000 per game. Edmonton has 50,000 seats but averages 26,000. The Bombers average somewhere around 26,000 in a 33,000 seat stadium. Bc Lions have the entire upper level of BC Place draped off. I won't even mention the Argos.

The CFL is brutal at pricing tickets & marketing the game. Always has been. Looks like they always will be. The CFL used to pride itself on being an affordable family oriented league. That stopped in the 90's. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

I just watched that podcast & thanks for the link wbbfan. The more I think about the situation, the more I'm in Dave Naylor's camp. I'd rather have football then none at all & the Bombers being a part of it.

There will always be die hard CFL fans who say they'll never watch a new league with 4 down football & would rather the league die. We've read those comments on this thread here. But the demographics of these fans are older. He's right when he says younger fans prefer the 4 down game. They play Madden. They watch the NFL. How many times have you heard people say thaat the NFL is "real football"? I've always kind of scratched my head whenever I heard that statement. How is the CFL not real football? They block & tackle, run & catch just like 4 down football. So how is not real??? Yet, we CFL fans hear it all the time & it hurts when it is said as we love the CFL. We don't like it when our game is mocked.

Some fans may not want to hear this but 4 downs is more popular. That's just the way it is. That fact just can't be ignored anymore. I think CFL owners know they'll lose some older fans by changing the rules but they feel that there's a potentially bigger & younger audience out there that will prefer 4 down football & grow with the teams the way I did when I first started watching the Bombers in 1965 as a 10 year old. So, they'll go with new rule changes despite the anger they'll hear. However, the reality is that when I was growing up, EVERYONE cared about the Bombers & the CFL. At elementary & high school in the 60's & 70's,, we'd talk CFL just like Dave Naylor said he did when he was a HS student. That does not exist anymore. Kids don't talk about the CFL. today. They don't wear merch. There is no CFL video game. They don't care. 

I wasn't depressed listening to the discussion. I appreciated Naylor's candor & honesty. He is going to piss off a a lot of people with the things he said. But people gotta hear it & face reality. Status quo will not work anymore. The pandemic has destroyed it. Just my opinion.

Edited March 20, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

12 hours ago, bryan35 said:

Could always watch CIS or Junior football in the meantime.

But in reality, you probably won't. 

[Eternal optimist]

4 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Some fans may not want to hear this but 4 downs is more popular. That's just the way it is. That fact just can't be ignored anymore. I think CFL owners know they'll lose some older fans by changing the rules but they feel that there's a potentially bigger & younger audience out there that will prefer 4 down football & grow with the teams the way I did when I first started watching the Bombers in 1965 as a 10 year old. So, they'll go with new rule changes despite the anger they'll hear. However, the reality is that when I was growing up, EVERYONE cared about the Bombers & the CFL. At elementary & high school in the 60's & 70's,, we'd talk CFL just like Dave Naylor said he did when he was a HS student. That does not exist anymore. Kids don't talk about the CFL. today. They don't wear merch. There is no CFL video game. They don't care.

3-downs, the rouge, and other such rules are important to the CFL. I would argue the individuals claiming the CFL "isn't real football" aren't going to be won over by such a change... you just aren't going to win them over regardless. I understand and respect Naylor's argument, but I'd argue that not only are those rules part of the CFL's identity, they help differentiate from the vast majority of other leagues down south ... the AAF, NCAA, XFL, USFL... all of these leagues have in the past (or present) been essentially farm teams for the NFL.

People assume the CFL drinking the kool-aid and becoming an NFL mini-league would bring stability... they fail to understand doing so wouldn't be a partnership. It'd be more like a merger and acquisition. They are a direct competitor, not an ally. If the CFL were to become a farm league for the NFL, I would not be surprised to see Winnipeg and other smaller Canadian cities lose their team as a result. The NFL has already shown they are loyal only to the almighty dollar, they've suppressed concussion protocol, implemented Thursday Night Football and failed to respect their own player protests. They're also expanded the number of teams in recent years, further diluting their talent pool.

I understand economically the league is in trouble, but I would not want to partner with that league. As for older fans, I'm 31 and have also grown up loving the CFL.

 

[Eternal optimist]

6 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Every home game is televised for every team. The price point of tickets & concessions is so expensive that people stay home rather than go to games now. Teams have refused to lower ticket prices to sell these empty seats in every stadium across the CFL.

Empty seats should represent an opportunity for  increased revenues. I never understood the logic of having a seat priced at $50 or more sit empty all season. Not only is it lost ticket revenue for the team but also lost concession & merch revenue. Wouldn't it make more sense to charge $15-20 to get butts in the seats where people spend money rather than having vast sections of seats sit empty game after game?? How many hundreds of thousands to millions does each team lose per season when stadiums are at 60% or lower in capacity? Calgary has 35,000 seats but averages 23,000 per game. Edmonton has 50,000 seats but averages 26,000. The Bombers average somewhere around 26,000 in a 33,000 seat stadium. Bc Lions have the entire upper level of BC Place draped off. I won't even mention the Argos.

The CFL is brutal at pricing tickets & marketing the game. Always has been. Looks like they always will be. The CFL used to pride itself on being an affordable family oriented league. That stopped in the 90's. 

(23,000 seats * $50 = $1,150,000) is greater than (35,000 seats * $20 = $700,000).

In the above example, even Edmonton at capacity would only be (50,000 * $20 = $1,000,000) vs (26,000 * $50 = $1,300,000) per game.

If you set the price at $15 per game, sure you have more fans that may be more willing to spend money on drinks/merchandise etc, but that is an optional expense. Let's just say you drop the price to $15 per game, I suddenly have $35 extra to spend on booze (woohoo!). Even if I optionally decide to spend all that money on stuff, there's the cost of making the goods sold to make that stuff (cost of the beer, cost of making the "Riders suck" T-shirt etc. etc.), so on that basis the league would still generate less net income than selling me a $50 ticket.

Lastly... our pricing simply doesn't cost $50 for a seat. The lowest price for season tickets is $254.50 for 11 games, even if you exclude the 2 preseason games and playoff game that works out ($254.50 / 8 games) to $31.75 per game. They also offer "Family Time" tickets for $66 per game (for 2 adults / 2 kids) which would be $16.50 per game, which is right in the price point you're suggesting.

Source: https://www.bluebombers.com/season-ticket-packages/

 

 

 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, Eternal optimist said:

(23,000 seats * $50 = $1,150,000) is greater than (35,000 seats * $20 = $700,000).

In the above example, even Edmonton at capacity would only be (50,000 * $20 = $1,000,000) vs (26,000 * $50 = $1,300,000) per game.

If you set the price at $15 per game, sure you have more fans that may be more willing to spend money on drinks/merchandise etc, but that is an optional expense. Let's just say you drop the price to $15 per game, I suddenly have $35 extra to spend on booze (woohoo!). Even if I optionally decide to spend all that money on stuff, there's the cost of making the goods sold to make that stuff (cost of the beer, cost of making the "Riders suck" T-shirt etc. etc.), so on that basis the league would still generate less net income than selling me a $50 ticket.

Lastly... our pricing simply doesn't cost $50 for a seat. The lowest price for season tickets is $254.50 for 11 games, even if you exclude the 2 preseason games and playoff game that works out ($254.50 / 8 games) to $31.75 per game. They also offer "Family Time" tickets for $66 per game (for 2 adults / 2 kids) which would be $16.50 per game, which is right in the price point you're suggesting.

Source: https://www.bluebombers.com/season-ticket-packages/

 

 

 

I went on the Bomber website & they aren't showing individual game day ticket prices. I know for a fact that ticket prices for people who don't have season tickets (or who don't want any) is substantially higher. So I know tickets are over $50 in that scenario. I also know that people have voted with their wallets. They won't go to games.

In their zeal to market season tickets, they have cut off a substantial part of that base. Game day walkups. I can remember a time when a big game, say for first place with Edmonton would generate 15-20,000 single game day sales in the days prior to a game like that for the Bombers. That doesn't happen anymore.

I don't care about your season ticket discount. You're hooked. You're a season ticket holder. I'm talking about fans who have to shell out big bucks to go to a single game who maybe don't have kids. Or don't want to sit in a family section. They pay full price. A guy wants to take his GF to a game & he has to pay, pay, pay. Why should he? The CFL has eliminated the game day ticket walkups with their pricing.

I know McMahon Stadium pricing. Single game day tickets on the 30 yard line were $80 in 2019. No way people will pay that when the game is televised in Calgary. So yeah, that seat sits empty all season. No one uses it. No one buys concessions & merch. Times that by 12,000 each game for 10 home dates. That is where the missing cash flow for teams are. Yet, they won't change it. Hence, here we are with the league crying & bleeding red. My premise is this. In taking care of STH, teams forgot about the other fans. The ones that don't have or don't want season tickets.

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, Eternal optimist said:

3-downs, the rouge, and other such rules are important to the CFL. I would argue the individuals claiming the CFL "isn't real football" aren't going to be won over by such a change... you just aren't going to win them over regardless. I understand and respect Naylor's argument, but I'd argue that not only are those rules part of the CFL's identity, they help differentiate from the vast majority of other leagues down south ... the AAF, NCAA, XFL, USFL... all of these leagues have in the past (or present) been essentially farm teams for the NFL.

People assume the CFL drinking the kool-aid and becoming an NFL mini-league would bring stability... they fail to understand doing so wouldn't be a partnership. It'd be more like a merger and acquisition. They are a direct competitor, not an ally. If the CFL were to become a farm league for the NFL, I would not be surprised to see Winnipeg and other smaller Canadian cities lose their team as a result. The NFL has already shown they are loyal only to the almighty dollar, they've suppressed concussion protocol, implemented Thursday Night Football and failed to respect their own player protests. They're also expanded the number of teams in recent years, further diluting their talent pool.

I understand economically the league is in trouble, but I would not want to partner with that league. As for older fans, I'm 31 and have also grown up loving the CFL.

 

The alternative is do nothing & go full steam ahead into oblivion. Because quite frankly, just about everyone can see the writing on the wall. There aren't enough of YOU to save this league. 

[17to85]

Yeah I don't know what the prices are in winnipeg but calgary has stupid pricing.