CFL/XFL Exploring Alignment

[TrueBlue4ever]

I feel like it is freaky Friday and Speedflex has inhabited my body, from co-opting my “harsh reality” stance on the state of the league to the very wordy posts. I swear I have not hacked his account. 

[SpeedFlex27]

14 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I feel like it is freaky Friday and Speedflex has inhabited my body, from co-opting my “harsh reality” stance on the state of the league to the very wordy posts. I swear I have not hacked his account. 

I think there are a few of us here that could take over a CFL team as President & make better decisions than the "professionals" that have run it prior or are running teams today. From stopping the circumventing of the salary cap by over zealous GMs like Pinball Clemons to marketing teams & the game in each individual city, from ticket prices to name changes. Teams need to hire "Capologists". All they do is monitor the salary cap all season long. They would also have the authority to put the brakes on a GM spending too much.

Edited March 20, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[17to85]

On 2021-03-11 at 1:42 PM, Noeller said:

Dunk says the only way the CFL plays in 2021 is with a financial backer, and that XFL might be such a backer. What it's going to cost the CFL in the long run (being force to change rules, etc) is unknown yet, but according to Dunk (for what that's worth...) the XFL is keeping the CFL afloat for now...

Maybe some of the rich assholes who own teams should check their couch cushions.

[Mark F]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I feel like it is freaky Friday and Speedflex has inhabited my body, from co-opting my “harsh reality” stance on the state of the league to the very wordy posts. I swear I have not hacked his account. 

he's on the money on this. 

thing I dont like is the possibility  of losing the ratio

my favourite part of the cfl is having canadian players.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Mark F

[SpeedFlex27]

49 minutes ago, Mark F said:

he's on the money on this. 

thing I dont like is the possibility  of losing the ratio

my favourite part of the cfl is having canadian players.

I certainly have my feelings about the ratio as I coached community football here in Calgary & my son was a qb at SFU. I used to be a staunch defender of the ratio. I used to argue that very point here years ago saying that if Canadians are eliminated then the grass roots of community football will die.  Maybe some of you remember the discussions I had defending the ratio. Not anymore. I felt really strongly about that belief until I saw the BS top flight Canadian qbs go through hoping just to be offered a TC spot let alone a regular roster position.  They're strung along with promises of getting a chance to prove themselves at training camp but in the end it's all lies. Very, very few get that shot. Yet some scrub Canadian fullback gets to play or some substandard U sports OL who gets the piss beaten out of him everyday makes a team. 

You know how many times my son told me in 2015 that his agent said, "The Argos may be interested". Or the Bombers, Ti Cats & Lions?? Nothing came of any of it & that's when my position changed about the ratio. Then last year, another Canadian qb from Calgary who had a stellar career at Western winning the Vanier Cup his first year as a starter & the Hec Creighton his second year got strung along the same way. I told his father not to get his hopes up based on our experience as he told me multiple CFL teams were interested. And sure enough he didn't even get drafted. All this "interest" but no takers. You have no idea how crushing that is to a player. Now he's playing in Spain as we speak hoping to impress & get another shot somewhere.

Canadian qbs aren't welcome to compete because American coaches don't like them. The same with GM's. Some are even Canadian. Like Wally Buono who I found out had no use for Canadian qbs. Now I've read that top Canadian draft picks in U Sports or the NCAA don't even watch the CFL or care if our teams draft them... because the NFL is the be all & end all plus they feel the CFL is beneath them then the hell with it. Maybe the best players should play at all positions regardless of nationality. No easy Plan B to make a CFL team. Go out & compete. Don't be gifted a spot because of nationality. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[Noeller]

So you're willing to toss the entire ratio because Canadian QBs aren't being allowed to play QB? That's absurd. What about every other position that does get a chance and succeeds?? What about the Alex Singletons of the world who might not have got a shot without the ratio? What about Jake Thomas, who's made a good life for himself directly because of the ratio??? 

[Mark F]

More to it than the gameitself.

Some of the Canucks who play in the CFL are community leaders, people to look up to, and follow.

O'Shea  is a great example.

so is Andrew Harris.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

So you're willing to toss the entire ratio because Canadian QBs aren't being allowed to play QB? That's absurd. What about every other position that does get a chance and succeeds?? What about the Alex Singletons of the world who might not have got a shot without the ratio? What about Jake Thomas, who's made a good life for himself directly because of the ratio??? 

No, I don't want it taken away. I just think that a little more honesty would go a long way. Why string a player along when there's absolutely no interest? When I heard these prima dona players don't even care about the CFL & how lucky they are to have a choice it just pissed me off. Like they have no idea how many guys would kill to be in their position. Just the arrogance & entitlement of some of these guys. . 

54 minutes ago, Mark F said:

More to it than the gameitself.

Some of the Canucks who play in the CFL are community leaders, people to look up to, and follow.

O'Shea  is a great example.

so is Andrew Harris.

 

You're right. 

[GCn20]

Canadian QBs just are not as good or pro ready as their American counterparts. Could they be with a few years of CFL development? Maybe...but I doubt it for the most part. Every few years you get a quasi CFL capable QB like O'Conner or Bridge but they are rare. For the most part CIS QBs aren't good enough to hold the jock straps of the high end IMP QB recruits. Has nothing to do with them not getting a fair chance. The Canadian minor football and university is light years behind in their ability to develop QBs to a pro level.

[SpeedFlex27]

5 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Canadian QBs just are not as good or pro ready as their American counterparts. Could they be with a few years of CFL development? Maybe...but I doubt it for the most part. Every few years you get a quasi CFL capable QB like O'Conner or Bridge but they are rare. For the most part CIS QBs aren't good enough to hold the jock straps of the high end IMP QB recruits. Has nothing to do with them not getting a fair chance. The Canadian minor football and university is light years behind in their ability to develop QBs to a pro level.

You make a good point but I think the quality of qbs now coming into the league isn't as good as it was even 10-15 years ago. We're getting a lot of D2 & D3 qbs coming up here now signing with teams. They don't have the skill set of earlier starting qbs so why not develop a Canadian kid on the roster? Look at O'Connor. He could develop into a very good player in Calgary with Dave Dickenson teaching him.

In 2015, I knew my son wouldn't get drafted & that the only chance he'd have would be as a free agent. The other qb I spoke of, well that's different. He was the best qb in U Sports for 2 years. There was an expectation he'd be taken in the later rounds from 5-7 in 2019. Never happened, though. How disappointing was that? 

Look, I was just upset with the entire process starting at the combine in Edmonton & going forward from there. That always bothered me. Then I heard Dave Naylor say these high draft picks don't care about the CFL a day or two ago. So, I was hasty when I said get rid of the ratio. I let my emotions get the best of me. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[Brandon]

23 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

There will always be die hard CFL fans who say they'll never watch a new league with 4 down football & would rather the league die. We've read those comments on this thread here. But the demographics of these fans are older. He's right when he says younger fans prefer the 4 down game. They play Madden. They watch the NFL. How many times have you heard people say thaat the NFL is "real football"?

Some fans may not want to hear this but 4 downs is more popular. That's just the way it is. That fact just can't be ignored anymore.

 

The Goldeyes and Moose 1.0 both played with the same rule sets of the big leagues and had little to no success with younger fans.   Goldeyes is full of seniors out for a nice night out and the Moose had lots of younger families also out for a cheap night out.  You never saw 15 - 40 year old people wearing jerseys or merch or talk about them.  I saw way more people my age associating with major league teams (Leafs, Blue Jays, Habs,  NYY etc...).

It would be completely ignorant to think that the reason younger demographics gravitate towards the NFL over the CFL is because of the difference in rule set.  It has a wee bit more to do with massive mainstream popularity,  being the league with the best football players period,  being fashionable/trendy etc.... 

The only reason the CFL has survived is because of it's unique rules and field and players.  If you want a preview of how shitty the game would look then watch some AAFL or XFL games,  I did and it was sloppy as hell and very amateurish. The larger field,  3 downs,  motion, etc... helps big time on giving the Offence a better chance of making exciting plays. Certain guys who don't fit the 4 down game can excel big time in the CFL because they can gain an edge. 

If they make the changes then the CFL will need to do some drastic changes such as slashing tickets to $10 - 15 dollars each and really make an emphasis on it being a night out of fun with the football game itself being a secondary priority.  Unlike a few other people on here...  I don't like the "We might as well settle with what we can get".   I'd rather have what I love then settle and be miserable with something I don't love.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Brandon

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

 

The Goldeyes and Moose 1.0 both played with the same rule sets of the big leagues and had little to no success with younger fans.   Goldeyes is full of seniors out for a nice night out and the Moose had lots of younger families also out for a cheap night out.  You never saw 15 - 40 year old people wearing jerseys or merch or talk about them.  I saw way more people my age associating with major league teams (Leafs, Blue Jays, Habs,  NYY etc...).

It would be completely ignorant to think that the reason younger demographics gravitate towards the NFL over the CFL is because of the difference in rule set.  It has a wee bit more to do with massive mainstream popularity,  being the league with the best football players period,  being fashionable/trendy etc.... 

The only reason the CFL has survived is because of it's unique rules and field and players.  If you want a preview of how shitty the game would look then watch some AAFL or XFL games,  I did and it was sloppy as hell and very amateurish. The larger field,  3 downs,  motion, etc... helps big time on giving the Offence a better chance of making exciting plays. Certain guys who don't fit the 4 down game can excel big time in the CFL because they can gain an edge. 

If they make the changes then the CFL will need to do some drastic changes such as slashing tickets to $10 - 15 dollars each and really make an emphasis on it being a night out of fun with the football game itself being a secondary priority.  Unlike a few other people on here...  I don't like the "We might as well settle with what we can get".   I'd rather have what I love then settle and be miserable with something I don't love.

And that's your perogative. I don't have to agree with you. I prefer the status quo with 3 downs as well but how do you fix the CFL with teams bleeding money  in the neighbourhood of $80 million? And the prospects of losing even more by playing this season even with fans in the stands? Where are they going to find more revenue? If you have the answer please tell me. 

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

And that's your perogative. I don't have to agree with you. I prefer the status quo with 3 downs as well but how do you fix the CFL with teams bleeding money  in the neighbourhood of $80 million? And the prospects of losing even more by playing this season even with fans in the stands? Where are they going to find more revenue? If you have the answer please tell me. 

League needs a long term plan,  which should of started after Ottawa rejoined the league. I can't speak for Toronto since I don't live and am not familiar with the population and geography.  But as Bluto said years ago,  should of moved somewhere in the Suburbs.   Drop the ticket prices get people at the game and come up with a marketing plan similar to how the Blue run operations where gameday is an experience that can appeal to all demographics.   As I said before try to find Canadian partners in each city to help market the Canadian aspect of the game and working more with the youth to get them interested in the teams.  The only league wide marketing off the field that I've ever noticed is the War Amps and fighting food hunger which are both good.  But they need more.    Maybe focus time and energy on something that give a good long term return.   I don't see how Ambrosie going to Europe had any real chance of being a success,  if the NFL Europe couldn't thrive... why the hell would he think CFL Europe would thrive?  Maybe instead of wasting company time going to Europe and Mexico he could of sat down with the potential investors for buying the Montreal franchise for a bit longer.  

The reasons/excuses given are just so poor and lack any sense.   

• Kids are not drawn to Madden because it's a 4 down football game....  kids play Madden because of the 30+ year history,  the millions of dollars invested in making and marketing the game,  the fact that it's THE football game that everyone else would play.   
• The gambling idea and fantasy football....  Who the hell plays fantasy hockey right now in Canada for the AHL?  Why would anyone in the States join a fantasy football for the CFL/XFL when they have no idea of who the hell anyone on the roster is AND/OR when their already is a bazillion well established NFL fantasy football leagues.   Sports betting is huge in Europe... but it's not like they are betting on Canadian Football or were betting on the XFL/AAFL.  
• XFL/AAF Attendances were weak as hell,  most markets had less then 15 000 people per game which is dreadful.  The Arena Football league had 7000 per game.   These 3 leagues had "TV" deals on big networks.  Outside of Baltimore most of the American teams in the CFL had sub 15 000 people per game back in 94 and 95.
• The XFL ratings were absolutely dismal despite being broadcasted and marketed to so many big areas.  They dropped sharply ,  indicating very little interest.  
• Outside of The Rock is a cool guy and makes tonnes of money in his movies... I don't see any possible logic or anything that indicates that whoring the league out will help it out in the long term.  So even if the CFL sells itself to The Rock for 80 million dollars... what happens in 2 years when The Rock's group doesn't feel like losing 50 million plus each year and decide to pull the plug.  What does Ambrosie do then? 

 

[TBURGESS]

Teams are losing money so they should drop the ticket prices? Nope. Just Nope. You can't sell that to owners.

3 downs is the reason people go to games? Nope. They go to see their home town team, hopefully beat the other team. They go because their parents take them as kids. They go because it's a great night out. They go because they love live sports.

Fans will stop going if they change the rules? A few. Most will complain and still go.

Kids love Madden because it's 4 downs? Nope. They play Madden because it's THE football game game. If THE football game game was CFL, they'd play that, but of course that will never happen.

The League has ignored each new generation for 30 years or more. They needed a plan to keep fans for at least that long. Take a good look around the stadiums and you'll see that the age of the fans is really old. They are literally dying off. I'm in my 60's and I'm a youngster when I go.

When I was a kid, the Bombers sent a player or two to one of my practices each year. They had our team play some football at half time. They gave the whole team end zone tickets. They allowed us on the field at the end of the games, where we patted the players on the back and tried to get them to give us their chin straps. We threw a football around and pretended we were them. Great memories created great fans.

Sals sold cheap endzone tickets. In high school, everyone on the football team and a lot of others bought them. It was a great day for me when I could take my Dad to a game instead of the other way around.

That's what the CFL used to do. That's what they need to do again if they want to build young fans to keep their business viable, but it's long term thinking and companies don't think that way any more. They just plan for the current year and ignore the long term, expecting it to take care of itself. At some point, the reckoning happens. Companies then get bailed out, taken over, or shut down. It looks like that's where we are now.

[17to85]

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

They go because their parents take them as kids. They go because it's a great night out. 

These are helped by lower prices. Long term investment.

[SpeedFlex27]

5 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Teams are losing money so they should drop the ticket prices? Nope. Just Nope. You can't sell that to owners.

3 downs is the reason people go to games? Nope. They go to see their home town team, hopefully beat the other team. They go because their parents take them as kids. They go because it's a great night out. They go because they love live sports.

Fans will stop going if they change the rules? A few. Most will complain and still go.

Kids love Madden because it's 4 downs? Nope. They play Madden because it's THE football game game. If THE football game game was CFL, they'd play that, but of course that will never happen.

The League has ignored each new generation for 30 years or more. They needed a plan to keep fans for at least that long. Take a good look around the stadiums and you'll see that the age of the fans is really old. They are literally dying off. I'm in my 60's and I'm a youngster when I go.

When I was a kid, the Bombers sent a player or two to one of my practices each year. They had our team play some football at half time. They gave the whole team end zone tickets. They allowed us on the field at the end of the games, where we patted the players on the back and tried to get them to give us their chin straps. We threw a football around and pretended we were them. Great memories created great fans.

Sals sold cheap endzone tickets. In high school, everyone on the football team and a lot of others bought them. It was a great day for me when I could take my Dad to a game instead of the other way around.

That's what the CFL used to do. That's what they need to do again if they want to build young fans to keep their business viable, but it's long term thinking and companies don't think that way any more. They just plan for the current year and ignore the long term, expecting it to take care of itself. At some point, the reckoning happens. Companies then get bailed out, taken over, or shut down. It looks like that's where we are now.

You're first point is the key to all their problems & teams refuse to address it. That should be their first priority. Lower game day ticket prices. i know when I had my Blue Bomber season tickets, I saved a little bit of money but not a lot, But I didn't buy them to save money. It was to have tickets to all the games.

The business strategy now is to (1) hawk season tickets at a significantly lower price to a shrinking base & (2) price them out of a majority of fans reach on Game Day knowing that same game is televised locally so people stay home. Thus taking away Game Day walkup sales. Just let the unsold seats sit empty.

I remember when Game Day crowds of 15-20,000 occurred. Those were events & the fans were fired up. The atmosphere at Winnipeg Stadium was electric. Now it's not even 1,500-2,000. I'll bet there are seats in every stadium that haven't had an occupant in years. All teams do this now & if this is a league directive... should be changed. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[Noeller]

Read some quotes from an interview with Wally and he seems to think the XFL folks might adopt most of the CFL rules to try and stand out from the NFL more. Obvious issue will be the field size down there, but other than that...... 

[SpeedFlex27]

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Read some quotes from an interview with Wally and he seems to think the XFL folks might adopt most of the CFL rules to try and stand out from the NFL more. Obvious issue will be the field size down there, but other than that...... 

Good on Wally but I just don't see it. Americans love their game. Imagine if the KHL wanted to join the NHL & insisted on intl ice surfaces. Which would mean tearing out seats in all NHL rinks Wouldn't work. We'd have fans saying our game should be left alone. It ain't broke so don't fix it kinda thing. I see that with this proposed merger.

[wbbfan]

On 2021-03-19 at 9:10 PM, Bigblue204 said:

I agree with you that Naylor has been down on the CFL since this came about. I completely disagree with the bolded statement though.

Attendance has been dropping league wide for a few years now. Thats a problem.

Yes but that was with MTL and Tor being carried by the league and basically dead in the water every year. Which is not the case now. Not to mention while attendance in game was going down, the tv deal was going up. And if the doors were opened this summer fully we would probably see the highest attendance average in my life time.

[wbbfan]

11 hours ago, Brandon said:

League needs a long term plan,  which should of started after Ottawa rejoined the league. I can't speak for Toronto since I don't live and am not familiar with the population and geography.  But as Bluto said years ago,  should of moved somewhere in the Suburbs.   Drop the ticket prices get people at the game and come up with a marketing plan similar to how the Blue run operations where gameday is an experience that can appeal to all demographics.   As I said before try to find Canadian partners in each city to help market the Canadian aspect of the game and working more with the youth to get them interested in the teams.  The only league wide marketing off the field that I've ever noticed is the War Amps and fighting food hunger which are both good.  But they need more.    Maybe focus time and energy on something that give a good long term return.   I don't see how Ambrosie going to Europe had any real chance of being a success,  if the NFL Europe couldn't thrive... why the hell would he think CFL Europe would thrive?  Maybe instead of wasting company time going to Europe and Mexico he could of sat down with the potential investors for buying the Montreal franchise for a bit longer.  

The reasons/excuses given are just so poor and lack any sense.   

• Kids are not drawn to Madden because it's a 4 down football game....  kids play Madden because of the 30+ year history,  the millions of dollars invested in making and marketing the game,  the fact that it's THE football game that everyone else would play.   
• The gambling idea and fantasy football....  Who the hell plays fantasy hockey right now in Canada for the AHL?  Why would anyone in the States join a fantasy football for the CFL/XFL when they have no idea of who the hell anyone on the roster is AND/OR when their already is a bazillion well established NFL fantasy football leagues.   Sports betting is huge in Europe... but it's not like they are betting on Canadian Football or were betting on the XFL/AAFL.  
• XFL/AAF Attendances were weak as hell,  most markets had less then 15 000 people per game which is dreadful.  The Arena Football league had 7000 per game.   These 3 leagues had "TV" deals on big networks.  Outside of Baltimore most of the American teams in the CFL had sub 15 000 people per game back in 94 and 95.
• The XFL ratings were absolutely dismal despite being broadcasted and marketed to so many big areas.  They dropped sharply ,  indicating very little interest.  
• Outside of The Rock is a cool guy and makes tonnes of money in his movies... I don't see any possible logic or anything that indicates that whoring the league out will help it out in the long term.  So even if the CFL sells itself to The Rock for 80 million dollars... what happens in 2 years when The Rock's group doesn't feel like losing 50 million plus each year and decide to pull the plug.  What does Ambrosie do then? 

 

Legit question here, is madden still any thing close to what it was in the 2000-2010 ish era?

Monetizing gambling is some thing the biggest sports leagues in the world are struggling with. Its likely that when it finally does get figured out the system will trickle down eventually to the likes of the CFL. I dont see us being the ones to solve that puzzle. 

Not only was the attendance/ratings not good, it was continually worse. Their fan base showed no sustainability imo.

100%. We are the ones with an innovative game thats set the pace for the best football to watch not the nfl, xfl or any failed pro football league. And mostly, I do not see any one involved with the other league past or current willing to lose as much money as vince was.  

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yes but that was with MTL and Tor being carried by the league and basically dead in the water every year. Which is not the case now. Not to mention while attendance in game was going down, the tv deal was going up. And if the doors were opened this summer fully we would probably see the highest attendance average in my life time.

You know, I've wondered about that a lot this past year. Would it be a scenario of "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" or a scenario of "Out of sight, Out of mind" & Canadians don't come back? Especially in TO, Montreal & Vancouver.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[wbbfan]

46 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Read some quotes from an interview with Wally and he seems to think the XFL folks might adopt most of the CFL rules to try and stand out from the NFL more. Obvious issue will be the field size down there, but other than that...... 

I think thats the easiest solution if the least likely. 

They cant change the field size much, so maybe just bigger endzones if possible. 

The ratio? the US teams have to field and start a certain amount of Global players. Including our NI's, germans, players from the mexican league etc. 

They dont have to take all our rules, they can pick the most entertaining set of rules between the two and what they have the best access to. 

[wbbfan]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

You know, I've wondered about that a lot this past year. Would it be a scenario of "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" or a scenario of "Out of sight, Out of mind" & Canadians don't come back? Especially in TO, Montreal & Vancouver.

I think even just the post covid need to get out n stretch our legs would bring in record numbers. And also give the league a good chance to brand in a bunch of younger fans. 

Each season gives the previous failed teams a chance to have a good run again. Having this big a gap would leave every teams fan base feeling like they have as good a shot as ever. Nothing is going to change TO into a good sports town. Its the niche band wagon jumping market of all markets.

[Colin Unger]

17 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

You know, I've wondered about that a lot this past year. Would it be a scenario of "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" or a scenario of "Out of sight, Out of mind" & Canadians don't come back? Especially in TO, Montreal & Vancouver.

i hope so.  my concern is that society will be more paranoid than before and a segment of society doesn't ever go out as much as they used to.

[Noeller]

Zero question in my mind that post COVID world is going to see a HUGE spike in live event attendance. Once people feel safe again, they're going to spend a pile of money on travel and event attendance.