Travis Rudolph / ALM / BLM

[TBURGESS]

If you think jail is to rehabilitate people you're wrong. Never has been. Never will be. Jail is to lock people away who have done something against the law. It's punishment, not rehabilitation. Repeat offenders go back because they did something else that's illegal, not because they were in jail the first time.

A bad upbringing doesn't explain away murder. Most folks with a bad upbringing never murder anyone. Fatalistic would be saying that murderers from a bad upbringing had no choice but to commit murder. That's nonsense.

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

If you think jail is to rehabilitate people you're wrong. Never has been. Never will be. Jail is to lock people away who have done something against the law. It's punishment, not rehabilitation. Repeat offenders go back because they did something else that's illegal, not because they were in jail the first time.

And this is where a lot of the disagreements between aides comes from on this issue. On one hand you have the people who want to punish criminals. On the other hand you have people who want to rehabilitate criminals into productive members of society. I personally side with rehabilitation simply because it is shown to be a more effective way to approach things rather than fostering career criminals. 

 

There are also societal failings which lead to bad choices for people stuck in those situations. People in poor disenfranchised populations are more likely to get sucked into that life because the influences around them create a situation where the trap happens. 

[TBURGESS]

12 hours ago, 17to85 said:

And this is where a lot of the disagreements between aides comes from on this issue. On one hand you have the people who want to punish criminals. On the other hand you have people who want to rehabilitate criminals into productive members of society. I personally side with rehabilitation simply because it is shown to be a more effective way to approach things rather than fostering career criminals. 

 

There are also societal failings which lead to bad choices for people stuck in those situations. People in poor disenfranchised populations are more likely to get sucked into that life because the influences around them create a situation where the trap happens. 

Rehabilitation sounds like a great idea on the surface but does it really work? The percentage of prisoners released in the US that return after committing another crime within the period of three years is 68%. If the stated objective is rehabilitation, then it obviously isn't working. If the objective is punishment, then the Recidivism rate doesn't matter. You simply put them back in when they commit another crime. Keeping folks in private prisons makes some people tons of money.

I'm on the side of personal responsibility rather than societal failure. All poor people aren't murderers or crooks or get sent to jail. Those who want to get out of the influences around them can do that through education, sports, music, acting, and hard work. It's obviously harder if you're poor than it is if you're middle class or rich, but we don't live in a fair society where everyone gets the same opportunities.

Can rehabilitation work? Maybe, but it would require a huge investment that governments aren't willing to make. It would also take proven methods of rehabilitation that work in a high percent of cases. I don't think that exists. Next you'd have to figure out which criminals can be rehabilitated in the first place and that's likely the non violent ones who aren't pedophiles. I doubt we ever get to the point where murderers  can ever be successfully rehabilitated.

[JCon]

59 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Rehabilitation sounds like a great idea on the surface but does it really work? The percentage of prisoners released in the US that return after committing another crime within the period of three years is 68%. If the stated objective is rehabilitation, then it obviously isn't working. If the objective is punishment, then the Recidivism rate doesn't matter. You simply put them back in when they commit another crime. Keeping folks in private prisons makes some people tons of money.

I'm on the side of personal responsibility rather than societal failure. All poor people aren't murderers or crooks or get sent to jail. Those who want to get out of the influences around them can do that through education, sports, music, acting, and hard work. It's obviously harder if you're poor than it is if you're middle class or rich, but we don't live in a fair society where everyone gets the same opportunities.

Can rehabilitation work? Maybe, but it would require a huge investment that governments aren't willing to make. It would also take proven methods of rehabilitation that work in a high percent of cases. I don't think that exists. Next you'd have to figure out which criminals can be rehabilitated in the first place and that's likely the non violent ones who aren't pedophiles. I doubt we ever get to the point where murderers  can ever be successfully rehabilitated.

I guess poor people just lack responsibility, right? Must be that they choose to be poor and uneducated. 

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

Rehabilitation sounds like a great idea on the surface but does it really work? The percentage of prisoners released in the US that return after committing another crime within the period of three years is 68%. If the stated objective is rehabilitation, then it obviously isn't working. If the objective is punishment, then the Recidivism rate doesn't matter. You simply put them back in when they commit another crime. Keeping folks in private prisons makes some people tons of money.

I'm on the side of personal responsibility rather than societal failure. All poor people aren't murderers or crooks or get sent to jail. Those who want to get out of the influences around them can do that through education, sports, music, acting, and hard work. It's obviously harder if you're poor than it is if you're middle class or rich, but we don't live in a fair society where everyone gets the same opportunities.

Can rehabilitation work? Maybe, but it would require a huge investment that governments aren't willing to make. It would also take proven methods of rehabilitation that work in a high percent of cases. I don't think that exists. Next you'd have to figure out which criminals can be rehabilitated in the first place and that's likely the non violent ones who aren't pedophiles. I doubt we ever get to the point where murderers  can ever be successfully rehabilitated.

I guess poor people just lack responsibility, right? Must be that they choose to be poor and uneducated. 

 

The criminal justice system is designed to punish and not to rehabilitate. Simply locking someone up is not going to change their behaviour. 

[MOBomberFan]

14 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Those who want to get out of the influences around them can do that through education, sports, music, acting, and hard work. It's obviously harder if you're poor than it is if you're middle class or rich, but we don't live in a fair society where everyone gets the same opportunities.

This right here is the most difficult factor, and sadly is where race works itself into the equation. WARNING TO ALL READERS: this is going to sound preachy and pertains to white privilege. If that triggers you, you're probably white and privileged! Also I acknowledge I'm super lily white and live comfortably, so this is an easy opinion for me to have (it's my...privilege?)

 

Who generally tends to be better off almost everywhere at every point in history? White folks. Who tends to be poorer and in more dire circumstances everywhere at any point in the last 300 or so years? Colored folk. In a 300 year foot race, white folk have been given about a 250 year head start. Our neighborhoods are often comfortable and full of amenities, our schools are usually funded adequately and our streets are more or less safe enough to let our kids outside on their own. Often we inherit property or wealth that our parents inherited from their parents who possibly inherited theirs and so on down the line... whereas other communities faced myriad obstacles for generations, be it slavery, forced displacement and relocation, families broken and separated as a means of assimilation (hello residential schools), some weren't allowed to own property or businesses or grow certain crops... never mind open hatred and hostility over the color of their skin, something they can not control, hide or change even if they wanted to (Michael Jackson notwithstanding). When we say society isn't fair it's because it was designed that way.

The United States abolished slavery, ghettoized black and brown folk, and made their private prisons turn profits. A few decades of brutal over-policing in underfunded and oft-neglected communities and the US can continue churning out slave labor in the 21st century with the best of them. Canada has it's checkered past, too. You should see the sixty year olds who break down in tears at the T&R dialogues over things that were happening in their own neighborhoods when they were kids, and they say they had no idea. Maybe they didn't, I don't know. Probably nobody cared. I hope the 'maybe if they had two loving parents' crowd recognizes that in our communities (within our lifetime for some of us), children were literally being taken away from their two loving parents - legally, by the government - so that they may be pacified and civilized, and that it had been happening for generations. Anthropologists of the future will not look upon us kindly.

Anyways respect to all those that made it this far. Good day to yous

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

Rehabilitation sounds like a great idea on the surface but does it really work? The percentage of prisoners released in the US that return after committing another crime within the period of three years is 68%. If the stated objective is rehabilitation, then it obviously isn't working. If the objective is punishment, then the Recidivism rate doesn't matter. You simply put them back in when they commit another crime. Keeping folks in private prisons makes some people tons of money.

I'm on the side of personal responsibility rather than societal failure. All poor people aren't murderers or crooks or get sent to jail. Those who want to get out of the influences around them can do that through education, sports, music, acting, and hard work. It's obviously harder if you're poor than it is if you're middle class or rich, but we don't live in a fair society where everyone gets the same opportunities.

Can rehabilitation work? Maybe, but it would require a huge investment that governments aren't willing to make. It would also take proven methods of rehabilitation that work in a high percent of cases. I don't think that exists. Next you'd have to figure out which criminals can be rehabilitated in the first place and that's likely the non violent ones who aren't pedophiles. I doubt we ever get to the point where murderers  can ever be successfully rehabilitated.

I like how you're talking about rehabilitation like the Canadian/American systems have tried it.

The system is strictly punishment not rehabilitation. Which is why the recidivism rates are so high. Which in Canada anyway, cost tax payers a tremendous about of $$. Not only in costs of running a jail (which I believe is around 100k per prisoner per year) but also whatever policing/repair/court costs etc that come along with them.

Yes it would cost the government a lot of $$ but what else is knew. It's costing us alot of money the way we operate now.

[Brandon]

edit

Edited April 9, 2021 by Brandon

[SpeedFlex27]

My wife's cousin was a guard at Stoney Mountain in the 70's. He's now an accountant living in Abbotsford, BC. He used to tell me stories about his time at SM. Two stories stand out as I haven't seen him in 20 years.

The first was they had an inmate from Quebec in a maximum security cell block as he was so violent. It might have been in isolation, I can't remember. He said the inmate used to talk all the time out loud bragging about how he killed two people. How much he enjoyed it, how he did it & wanted to kill again. People outside his cell in the hall as well as other inmates could hear every word he said. Her cousin was well over 250 lbs would have been in his early 30's at the time & someone you'd want watching your back in a tight spot but it was obvious he was scared of the guy. How do you rehabilitate someone like that? He was sadistic & enjoyed killing people. He'd never be rehabilatated. 

The second was how the guards used to mete out respect & justice to any inmate who wouldn't listen to them or disrespected them. They used to drag inmates to a stairwell & push them down the stairs then kick the **** out of them before bringing them back to their cells. The jail officials in charge always looked the other way. He said once was enough to have most of them show respect to the guards. Pretty shocking to hear these stories. 

This was the 70's.  

[FrostyWinnipeg]

[TBURGESS]

6 hours ago, JCon said:

I guess poor people just lack responsibility, right? Must be that they choose to be poor and uneducated. 

I guess poor people just lack responsibility, right? Must be that they choose to be poor and uneducated. 

 

The criminal justice system is designed to punish and not to rehabilitate. Simply locking someone up is not going to change their behaviour. 

What a dumb comment. I didn't say or imply that poor people choose to be poor or that they lack responsibility. I said they are responsible for their actions and most of them never murder anyone.

 

6 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

This right here is the most difficult factor, and sadly is where race works itself into the equation. WARNING TO ALL READERS: this is going to sound preachy and pertains to white privilege. If that triggers you, you're probably white and privileged! Also I acknowledge I'm super lily white and live comfortably, so this is an easy opinion for me to have (it's my...privilege?)

 

Who generally tends to be better off almost everywhere at every point in history? White folks. Who tends to be poorer and in more dire circumstances everywhere at any point in the last 300 or so years? Colored folk. In a 300 year foot race, white folk have been given about a 250 year head start. Our neighborhoods are often comfortable and full of amenities, our schools are usually funded adequately and our streets are more or less safe enough to let our kids outside on their own. Often we inherit property or wealth that our parents inherited from their parents who possibly inherited theirs and so on down the line... whereas other communities faced myriad obstacles for generations, be it slavery, forced displacement and relocation, families broken and separated as a means of assimilation (hello residential schools), some weren't allowed to own property or businesses or grow certain crops... never mind open hatred and hostility over the color of their skin, something they can not control, hide or change even if they wanted to (Michael Jackson notwithstanding). When we say society isn't fair it's because it was designed that way.

The United States abolished slavery, ghettoized black and brown folk, and made their private prisons turn profits. A few decades of brutal over-policing in underfunded and oft-neglected communities and the US can continue churning out slave labor in the 21st century with the best of them. Canada has it's checkered past, too. You should see the sixty year olds who break down in tears at the T&R dialogues over things that were happening in their own neighborhoods when they were kids, and they say they had no idea. Maybe they didn't, I don't know. Probably nobody cared. I hope the 'maybe if they had two loving parents' crowd recognizes that in our communities (within our lifetime for some of us), children were literally being taken away from their two loving parents - legally, by the government - so that they may be pacified and civilized, and that it had been happening for generations. Anthropologists of the future will not look upon us kindly.

Anyways respect to all those that made it this far. Good day to yous

Ah yes, the white guilt argument. The colour and the race of murderers doesn't matter. The fact they are murderers is the only thing that does.

As long as you are bringing it up tho... America abolished slavery in 1863. That's 150+ years ago. Even in the worst of slavery most white families didn't own slaves because they were way too expensive. It's the top 1%, actually 1.4% of the free population in 1860 in the US owned slaves according to the census info, and some of them were black owners. Slavery isn't a US only issue. There were way more slaves in South America and in the Caribbean. In fact Americans mostly bought their slaves from South America and the Caribbean because they were already 'trained'. The chance of having someone in your family tree who owned slaves is the same as having someone in your family tree who was in the top 10% of earners.

Don't let the above facts make you think that I'm trying to 'whitewash' slavery. I'm not. It was horrible for slaves. 12.5 Million Africans were put on ships. Only 10.7 Million of them made it to their destination. Less than half a million went directly to the USA. It was almost as horrible for indentured servants, but at least they became free in 5-7 years if they survived. America and many other places were built on the backs of slaves.

It's not just black and brown folks who the US ghettoized. The Irish, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Jews and many others were also ghettoized. Basically anyone who got off a boat was forced into a Ghetto of one type or another. When I was a Vancouver Realtor, some places like 'British Properties' still had a whites only policy for buyers right on the deed. Of course they aren't legal anymore, but that shows where we were at in Canada, not so long ago (Early 1940's). Even in the 60's when my grandparents sold the family cottage, they got in a bit of trouble for selling it to Jewish folks. They, rightly, told the neighbours to pound sand.

Yes, even today, black people, especially in the US have it harder than white people on average. Yes a lot of them live in or come from dire circumstances. Yes, the Cops often treat them terribly. Black, Brown, White or any other colour, the Justice system treats poor folks terribly and rich folks great. None of these are reasons or excuses to commit murder. None of these are reasons or excuses for feeling sorry for people who kill other people.

 

 

 

[17to85]

Personal responsibility is great... but if you completely discount the role that a person's surroundings play you are missing a big part of the picture.

[Mark H.]

About the slave trade:

America imported fewer slaves than South America because American slave owners treated their slaves 'just well enough' so that they would still have families. This was referred to as the 'reproduction calculation.'  If you need a source - search for John Greene's slavery docs on you tube. 

[Tracker]

6 hours ago, Mark H. said:

About the slave trade:

America imported fewer slaves than South America because American slave owners treated their slaves 'just well enough' so that they would still have families. This was referred to as the 'reproduction calculation.'  If you need a source - search for John Greene's slavery docs on you tube. 

Yup. Pure economics and the slave-breeding records are still extant. The owners/breeders deliberately often moved the men from one woman to another to prevent the formation of family ties. This phenomenon of absent fathers has persisted to this day and is used by racists to mock black men and families. It takes generations for nuclear families to form and survive.

[TBURGESS]

16 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Personal responsibility is great... but if you completely discount the role that a person's surroundings play you are missing a big part of the picture.

I'm not discounting peoples surroundings. I'm saying those surroundings aren't an excuse for murdering anyone.

26 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Yup. Pure economics and the slave-breeding records are still extant. The owners/breeders deliberately often moved the men from one woman to another to prevent the formation of family ties. This phenomenon of absent fathers has persisted to this day and is used by racists to mock black men and families. It takes generations for nuclear families to form and survive.

I hadn't heard of the 'reproduction calculation' but it makes perfect sense for the times. That being said, it's a huge stretch to equate that with absent fathers AKA baby Daddy's.

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

 

I hadn't heard of the 'reproduction calculation' but it makes perfect sense for the times. That being said, it's a huge stretch to equate that with absent fathers AKA baby Daddy's.

 Not really - they were treated worse than animals for 15 - 20 generations - and that includes the post civil war Era.  It is similar to the long term impact of residential schools - only worse. 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

I'm not going to quote what you said. I'm just going to post this:

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm not discounting peoples surroundings. I'm saying those surroundings aren't an excuse for murdering anyone.

 

You literally discounted people's surrounding in the very next sentence.

 

ANyways- who here said that environmental influences is an excuse for murder? Looking back I don't see anyone saying anything remotely like that. Please point it out as I seemed to have missed it.   

 

[17to85]

4 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm not discounting peoples surroundings. I'm saying those surroundings aren't an excuse for murdering anyone.

No one is trying to excuse it, simply looking at some root problems as to why people go down that path. 

[TBURGESS]

On 2021-04-10 at 10:40 PM, 17to85 said:

No one is trying to excuse it, simply looking at some root problems as to why people go down that path. 

Why? So you can 'fix' it somehow? How would you do that? Folks are calling colour a root problem. That's not 'fixable' and only a problem in some peoples minds. Poor upbringing? Can't fix that. Poor? Can't fix that. Single parent? Don't even try to fix that.

That just leaves to excuse the conduct based on the murderers 'root problems'.

[17to85]

14 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Why? So you can 'fix' it somehow? How would you do that? Folks are calling colour a root problem. That's not 'fixable' and only a problem in some peoples minds. Poor upbringing? Can't fix that. Poor? Can't fix that. Single parent? Don't even try to fix that.

That just leaves to excuse the conduct based on the murderers 'root problems'.

Why can't we fix poor? Or poor upbringing? 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

24 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Why can't we fix poor? Or poor upbringing? 

One way to fix child poverty is to not have kids if you're in poverty.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

One way to fix child poverty is to not have kids if you're in poverty.

And how realistic is that when many of the religious services that try to evangelize the poor advocate against contraception? Education is the antidote to both poverty and unwanted pregnancies.

[Brandon]

47 minutes ago, Tracker said:

And how realistic is that when many of the religious services that try to evangelize the poor advocate against contraception? Education is the antidote to both poverty and unwanted pregnancies.

Are we speaking about modern day North America?   Religious services is to blame and education as the antidote?  LOL you may be in a time warp. 

The real answer is modern society has way to many selfish think for them self only people who do not take responsibilities for their action. 

In the olden times it was taboo to be a single parent... these days we have people even in Winnipeg who purposely get pregnant so that they can collect more money from the Government without them having to go to work.  It's messed up. 

Ideally everyone is raised by two parents regardless of income... unfortunately the reality is that their is zero way you can force people to not screw around impregnating women left and right and taking off without being responsible for the babies they make.  Their sadly is zero solution that anyone from the outside can use to fix.   Throwing money or offering free child care isn't going to ever solve the problem. 

 

[Mark H.]

There are many fixable problems, but nothing is done about them and the cycle just perpetuates.

Example #1: underfunded education in First Nations communities 

Example #2: state run gambling facilities that create more problems than they solve

One can say that these issues couldn't be eliminated. But it's easier to do land acknowledgements, issue Apologies and pretend you care by running addictions programs.  

 

[17to85]

10 hours ago, Brandon said:

Their sadly is zero solution that anyone from the outside can use to fix.   Throwing money or offering free child care isn't going to ever solve the problem. 

Education is the answer. 

[Tracker]

10 hours ago, Brandon said:

Are we speaking about modern day North America?   Religious services is to blame and education as the antidote?  LOL you may be in a time warp. 

The real answer is modern society has way to many selfish think for them self only people who do not take responsibilities for their action. 

In the olden times it was taboo to be a single parent... these days we have people even in Winnipeg who purposely get pregnant so that they can collect more money from the Government without them having to go to work.  It's messed up. 

Ideally everyone is raised by two parents regardless of income... unfortunately the reality is that their is zero way you can force people to not screw around impregnating women left and right and taking off without being responsible for the babies they make.  Their sadly is zero solution that anyone from the outside can use to fix.   Throwing money or offering free child care isn't going to ever solve the problem. 

 

This sort of attitude demonstrated here is why it is so difficult to change things for the better.