Travis Rudolph / ALM / BLM

[MOBomberFan]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

If that's what you read then you need to keep your own biases away from what you read. As for your Truth and Reconciliation comment go #### yourself. I am a residential school survivor so don't ever assume to know me or call me ignorant on something I lived through. The nerve of you.

I stand by what I said. "I empathize with these people, but..." then you call them "scum" and say "you don't give a crap" how does that not amount to '**** em'? Explain to me, I'm here to listen and talk. If you're not then you know where the ignore function is. And don't go editing the post again

F you's aside (and make no mistake, F you too) sorry for what you may have had to endure in your time at the residential school. I know some were worse than others but it's a black mark on Canadian history and it's so recent. It's a shame that there are so many of us who are only hearing about them now. I certainly never heard about it in school in the 90s.

 

I'm wondering if the hardliners feel this way about ALL crime, and not just murder. ie. a drug dealer is a drug dealer, no matter the circumstances surrounding their crimes, theft is theft no matter who is stealing from who and why, so on....

[Tracker]

There is a campaign ongoing in the US to fill all social media with lies about the warrant that was outstanding on the young man who was killed in Minneapolis. The lies are that he had committed a violent armed robbery but in reality, he had been arrested for possession of one joint, pled guilty and was fined about $150.00 (US). He was given a payment plan on which he defaulted due to losing his job because of the pandemic. He was killed for simple possession. 

As an aside, the officer who killed him and the chief of police has resigned.

[Mark F]

here are some crime starts comparing india and usa.

 

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/India/United-States/Crime

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

Damn... 

 

 

[Mark H.]

"I need to drive my two-year-old to daycare tomorrow morning. To ensure we arrive alive, we won't take public transit (Oscar Grant). I removed all air fresheners from the vehicle and double-checked my registration status (Daunte Wright), and ensured my license plates were visible (Lt. Caron Nazario). I will be careful to follow all traffic rules (Philando Castille), signal every turn (Sandra Bland), keep the radio volume low (Jordan Davis), and won't stop at a fast food chain for a meal (Rayshard Brooks). I'm too afraid to pray (Rev. Clementa C. Pickney) so I just hope the car won't break down (Corey Jones). 
When my wife picks him up at the end of the day, I'll remind her not to dance (Elijah McClain), stop to play in a park (Tamir Rice), patronize the local convenience store for snacks (Trayvon Martin), or walk around the neighborhood (Mike Brown). Once they are home, we won't stand in our backyard (Stephon Clark), eat ice cream on the couch (Botham Jean), or play any video games (Atatiana Jefferson). 
After my wife and I tuck him into bed around 7:30pm, neither of us will leave the house to go to Walmart (John Crawford) or to the gym (Tshyrand Oates) or on a jog (Ahmaud Arbery). We won't even walk to see the birds (Christian Cooper). We'll just sit and try not to breathe (George Floyd) and not to sleep (Breonna Taylor)." 
These are things white people simply do not have to think about."
-David Gray

[GCn20]

15 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

I stand by what I said. "I empathize with these people, but..." then you call them "scum" and say "you don't give a crap" how does that not amount to '**** em'? Explain to me, I'm here to listen and talk. If you're not then you know where the ignore function is. And don't go editing the post again

F you's aside (and make no mistake, F you too) sorry for what you may have had to endure in your time at the residential school. I know some were worse than others but it's a black mark on Canadian history and it's so recent. It's a shame that there are so many of us who are only hearing about them now. I certainly never heard about it in school in the 90s.

 

I'm wondering if the hardliners feel this way about ALL crime, and not just murder. ie. a drug dealer is a drug dealer, no matter the circumstances surrounding their crimes, theft is theft no matter who is stealing from who and why, so on....

I didn't go to school in the 90's. Also, I don't excuse any violent crime perpetrated on others for socio-economic reasons. I know too many really good people that struggle on the daily with poverty and racism to give scumbags who use it as an excuse a free pass. A lot of my family lives on a northern reserve and they are good and honest people and I know the vast majority of my friends and family who actually live these conditions wish that society wouldn't accept a two tiered justice system. The meth and coke dealers, the gangs, the violent crimes are all a part of their daily lives and then when these guys are arrested they are sent right back out to do it again because they are deemed a victim of circumstance and they terrorize these communities over and over again. Excusing this behavior is not right. These people prey on the weak and vulnerable and they know full well what they are doing. When you lose a family member or a close friend to a scumbag that should have been in jail already then you might understand. These communities have life losses like this on a weekly basis either directly or indirectly because the political correct crowd seems to be winning their battle for a multi-tiered justice system. I've lived it and watched it in my formative years, and was lucky and industrious enough to work my way out, can you say the same?

Edited April 14, 2021 by GCn20

[GCn20]

On 2021-04-12 at 2:24 PM, 17to85 said:

Again, all this straw man arguing points no one is making. We are simplying using this as an opportunity to talk about some systemic issues in parts of society that contribute to people making poor choices. 

There are ways to combat these things, but it takes a will to do it, and people shrugging their shoulders saying "meh, nothing to be done" won't convince any government to actually do anything. So the cycle repeats and people get trapped in poverty and fall into bad circumstances which lead to them making poor choices.

Repeal the Indian Act. That would be a great first step to helping indigenous people out of poverty. When you don't/can't own the house and property you live on when living on reserve it becomes very difficult to build assetts and accumulate wealth both personally and from generation to generation. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by GCn20

[MOBomberFan]

13 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I didn't go to school in the 90's.

Obviously not, since virtually all of the residential schools in Manitoba were close by 1970, with the last ones closing in Winnipeg 1975 and The Pas in 1979.

16 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The meth and coke dealers, the gangs, the violent crimes are all a part of their daily lives and then when these guys are arrested they are sent right back out to do it again because they are deemed a victim of circumstance and they terrorize these communities over and over again.

Sent right back out into the same **** situation they came up in and getting the same results? How cyclical. You don't say.

18 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

These communities have life losses like this on a weekly basis either directly or indirectly because the political correct crowd seems to be winning their battle for a multi-tiered justice system.

Indigenous people account for only 5% of our countries population but over 20% of our homicide victims. They are also 8 times more likely to be the suspect of a homicide than a non-indigenous person. If the 'PC crowd' is going to bat for indigenous peoples it's because they are disproportionately suffering in our legal system. Unless anyone has the audacity to suggest Natives choose to be more violent and choose to be victims of violent crime? Honestly, who would choose that if they were given the option? There must be more to it than personal accountability alone, otherwise the numbers speak for themselves (black and white, right and wrong, more murderous vs less murderous...)

Gang related homicides account for nearly 1/4 of all homicides in Canada. Where do gangs form? Inner city/urban areas. Who lives in the inner city? Poor and colored folk. Community outreach and education to deter disadvantaged youth from joining gangs could bring these numbers way down. Rehabilitation unfortunately tends to come too late (once they've been institutionalized and are 'in the system'), we need to keep people from joining gangs.

But that costs money and political influence. If you're a politician that wants to help inner city youth you better not be counting on many rural and suburban voters coming out to support you.

[GCn20]

30 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Obviously not, since virtually all of the residential schools in Manitoba were close by 1970, with the last ones closing in Winnipeg 1975 and The Pas in 1979.

Sent right back out into the same **** situation they came up in and getting the same results? How cyclical. You don't say.

Indigenous people account for only 5% of our countries population but over 20% of our homicide victims. They are also 8 times more likely to be the suspect of a homicide than a non-indigenous person. If the 'PC crowd' is going to bat for indigenous peoples it's because they are disproportionately suffering in our legal system. Unless anyone has the audacity to suggest Natives choose to be more violent and choose to be victims of violent crime? Honestly, who would choose that if they were given the option? There must be more to it than personal accountability alone, otherwise the numbers speak for themselves (black and white, right and wrong, more murderous vs less murderous...)

Gang related homicides account for nearly 1/4 of all homicides in Canada. Where do gangs form? Inner city/urban areas. Who lives in the inner city? Poor and colored folk. Community outreach and education to deter disadvantaged youth from joining gangs could bring these numbers way down. Rehabilitation unfortunately tends to come too late (once they've been institutionalized and are 'in the system'), we need to keep people from joining gangs.

But that costs money and political influence. If you're a politician that wants to help inner city youth you better not be counting on many rural and suburban voters coming out to support you.

Wrong. The last residential school in Manitoba closed in 1989. Also, the Indian day schools continued well into the 90's. Choose to be violent...absolutely. Do you honestly think that there is an excuse for violent behavior or that the "system" taught them this? It didn't. I know because I lived it. No one chooses to be victims of violent crime. Lack of enforcement and punishment have contributed greatly to this, I am not for one second suggesting that rates are completely unrelated to socio-economic circumstance....they are. Poverty is a beyotch and helping these people out of it needs to be a priority. However, these communities are not well served when violent criminals, drug dealers, and gang members are slapped on the wrist and returned to the community. That is just straight up fact.

Edited April 14, 2021 by GCn20

[MOBomberFan]

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Wrong. The last residential school in Manitoba closed in 1989.

Yes, thats right, my mistake. The second to last one closed in 1979. The very last one up in Dauphin stayed open til '89.

[TBURGESS]

18 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's not about taking their background into account when considering punishment...ITS NOT ABOUT EXCUSES. ITS NOT ABOUT PUNISHMENT. ITS ABOUT PREVENTION.

No one thinks they shouldn't be punished, they should be.

IT'S ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR THE MURDERER and it's a great STRATEGY. We talked about this for a week before anyone brought up motive and the percentage of people who murder. It took another day before anyone brought up the victims.

By the time someone gets caught it's too late for prevention for them. I'm all for changing things to make the world fairer for more people, but that conversation needs to be outside the realm of the 'justice system'. By bringing it up every time someone of colour kills someone, you're perpetrating the myth that their background is THE reason they killed someone. As 99% of people, even from the same background, never kill anyone, it's way down near the bottom of the 'reasons' someone is a murderer.

If you want to empathize with anyone, empathize with the victims and their families. Society needs to focus more on the murdered than on the murderers. Laws need to change to give victims and their families more rights even if that means reducing the rights of the perpetrators. I bet, tho I having looked up the stats, that more people from bad backgrounds are murdered than are murderers.

Edited April 14, 2021 by TBURGESS

[JCon]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

IT'S ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR THE MURDERER and it's a great STRATEGY. We talked about this for a week before anyone brought up motive and the percentage of people who murder. It took another day before anyone brought up the victims.

By the time someone gets caught it's too late for prevention for them. I'm all for changing things to make the world fairer for more people, but that conversation needs to be outside the realm of the 'justice system'. By bringing it up every time someone of colour kills someone, you're perpetrating the myth that their background is THE reason they killed someone. As 99% of people, even from the same background, never kill anyone, it's way down near the bottom of the 'reasons' someone is a murderer.

If you want to empathize with anyone, empathize with the victims and their families. Society needs to focus more on the murdered than on the murderers. Laws need to change to give victims and their families more rights even if that means reducing the rights of the perpetrators. I bet, tho I having looked up the stats, that more people from bad backgrounds are murdered than are murderers.

Society needs to focus on prevention and harm reduction. 

[Bigblue204]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

IT'S ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR THE MURDERER and it's a great STRATEGY. We talked about this for a week before anyone brought up motive and the percentage of people who murder. It took another day before anyone brought up the victims.

1. By the time someone gets caught it's too late for prevention for them. I'm all for changing things to make the world fairer for more people, but that conversation needs to be outside the realm of the 'justice system'. 2. By bringing it up every time someone of colour kills someone, you're perpetrating the myth that their background is THE reason they killed someone. As 99% of people, even from the same background, never kill anyone, it's way down near the bottom of the 'reasons' someone is a murderer.

If you want to empathize with anyone, empathize with the victims and their families. Society needs to focus more on the murdered than on the murderers. Laws need to change to give victims and their families more rights even if that means reducing the rights of the perpetrators. I bet, tho I having looked up the stats, that more people from bad backgrounds are murdered than are murderers.

1. Where did I say it wasn't?
2. When have I mentioned the color of someone's skin?

Maybe it's the timeline that isn't getting through to you. I'm not talking about during a sentencing process/court case etc. I'm talking about after all of that. The criminal has been caught, the criminal has been sentenced....then as a society/charity/non profit/police force/social programs etc etc. You can examine what lead to the crime. Example:

I worked in a neighborhood that had an incident happen. Incident was, after school a group of kids picked on another kid, this continued on for weeks...leading up to the one kid eventually being locked in a shed, and that shed was then set on fire. (thankfully the kid inside was able to get out before they were seriously hurt.) The kids responsible for doing that, we held responsible and punished.

BUT AFTER THE INCIDENT...the community got together and said enough was enough...these things can't happen here. HOW CAN WE AVOID THIS IN THE FUTURE....it was determined that kids in that area/community had very little options when it came to after school activities...which in turn led them to hanging around and finding things to do which often led to disruptive behavior or worse.  So the community along with a non profit organization started an after school program for kids in that community. Violence and vandalism dropped dramatically in the community. It didn't stop all together, but it got much better. AND because we (as a society) know, that people who have been hurt, are more likely to hurt others...counseling was provided to the bullied child to help them get past it, without hurting someone else (Not that it was 100% determined that the bullied kid would hurt someone else, but we know that often, hurt people, hurt people....so we intervened just incase.).


"Well if the bully's had proper parents, they should have stepped in, avoiding the entire situation." This is correct, and in an ideal world what would happen. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world and there are plenty of reasons why those specific kids didn't have adequate supervision during those hours. Some of those reasons were and continue to be related to societal failings of the past...which I can again give examples of, but this is already getting to be a very long post...about a subject I said was no longer worth discussing.........but here I am.

[17to85]

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

IT'S ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR THE MURDERER and it's a great STRATEGY. We talked about this for a week before anyone brought up motive and the percentage of people who murder. It took another day before anyone brought up the victims

No it's not. It's about lamenting the ills in society that lead to people in these circumstances.

[TBURGESS]

43 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

No it's not. It's about lamenting the ills in society that lead to people in these circumstances.

The ills of society lead 1% of people in these circumstances to murder. Your white guilt is better placed on the victims who suffer than on the murderers.

 

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

1. Where did I say it wasn't?
2. When have I mentioned the color of someone's skin?

Maybe it's the timeline that isn't getting through to you. I'm not talking about during a sentencing process/court case etc. I'm talking about after all of that. The criminal has been caught, the criminal has been sentenced....then as a society/charity/non profit/police force/social programs etc etc. You can examine what lead to the crime.

The conversion starts as soon as the person gets arrested, not after the court case or the sentencing. Most people absolutely take skin colour into account, just read the posts. Therefore, your timeline argument is invalid.

I also disagree with your opinion that bullies don't have good parents who would have corrected them.

In your world, society 'makes' murderers, lack of good parenting 'makes' bullies and you can 'correct' behaviour by simply giving people something better to do. You discount motive and the fact that these things don't effect most people enough to make them into murderers or even bullies. It's great to hear that you reduced vandalism, which is not bullying, and violence (How did you quantify that?) in your community tho. Congrats.

 

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

The ills of society lead 1% of people in these circumstances to murder. Your white guilt is better placed on the victims who suffer than on the murderers.

The conversion starts as soon as the person gets arrested, not after the court case or the sentencing. Most people absolutely take skin colour into account, just read the posts. Therefore, your timeline argument is invalid.

I also disagree with your opinion that bullies don't have good parents who would have corrected them.

In your world, society 'makes' murderers, lack of good parenting 'makes' bullies and you can 'correct' behaviour by simply giving people something better to do. You discount motive and the fact that these things don't effect most people enough to make them into murderers or even bullies. It's great to hear that you reduced vandalism, which is not bullying, and violence (How did you quantify that?) in your community tho. Congrats.

 

You really need to read what he wrote. Like, you really, really need to read what he wrote

Just one example: the kid was intentionally left in a shed, the shed was set on fire - and you actually said and I will paraphrase: "that's vandalism, not bullying."

 

[Bigblue204]

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

The ills of society lead 1% of people in these circumstances to murder. Your white guilt is better placed on the victims who suffer than on the murderers.

You really are obtuse aren't you? Get off of this punishing people is all that matters kick and look around. There are countless examples of poor populations being over represented in prisons and committing crimes... but we are supposed to believe that these people all are just bad people? There is no systemic reason people turn out they way they do? 

There are tons of studies about nature vs. Nurture this really shouldn't even be a debate at this point. The only debate is how much a person wants to do about trying to address these issues. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

Me stumbling across this 4 page debate in the thread:

 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

Oof, some seriously cynical stuff here... but- he's not wrong. Working as intended.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by wanna-b-fanboy

[HardCoreBlue]

56 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Oof, some seriously cynicl stuff here... but- he's not wrong. Working as intended.

 

Thought provoking.

[Bigblue204]

57 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Oof, some seriously cynicl stuff here... but- he's not wrong. Working as intended.

 

You should check out, A Colony in a Nation by Chris Hayes. Real easy read, and discusses similar topics. But yes you  are right, the system is not broken.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Oof, some seriously cynical stuff here... but- he's not wrong. Working as intended.

 

I hate how the a fee bad apples saying has lost its meaning. I mean a fee bad apples ruins the whole bunch is the whole thing. So yeah we got a fee bad apples in police forces.... and if they aren't removed they spoil the whole bunch.

[TrueBlue4ever]

I remember the movie “Internal Affairs” where Andy Garcia is being introduced into Internal Affairs as the new detective. The superintendent, basically a political hack, welcomes him with a speech about how the rumours about the hatred of cops investigating cops is overblown, how important the work is, how it is a necessary check on police misdeeds, and that this unit has the support and respect of the entire force - that they recognize his role in making the force more accountable and therefore better, an initiative all police believe in. The super leaves and Garcia’s unit sargeant, who stood by quietly while the speech was going on, shakes Garcia’s hand and says “Welcome to IA, you’ve just lost every friend you ever had in the LAPD”. The Blue Wall absolutely exists. Like Noah said, individuals can’t or won’t speak up against the system. 

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I remember the movie “Internal Affairs” where Andy Garcia is being introduced into Internal Affairs as the new detective. The superintendent, basically a political hack, welcomes him with a speech about how the rumours about the hatred of cops investigating cops is overblown, how important the work is, how it is a necessary check on police misdeeds, and that this unit has the support and respect of the entire force - that they recognize his role in making the force more accountable and therefore better, an initiative all police believe in. The super leaves and Garcia’s unit sargeant, who stood by quietly while the speech was going on, shakes Garcia’s hand and says “Welcome to IA, you’ve just lost every friend you ever had in the LAPD”. The Blue Wall absolutely exists. Like Noah said, individuals can’t or won’t speak up against the system. 

Most would not believe how invasive it is.