Looking ahead,early chat-Banjo Bowl 2021

[M.O.A.B.]

3 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Their OL has been terrible at run blocking this season. Their OL is hot garbage. They really need an infusion of talent. If I were the Riders I might consider starting a 3rd IMP on the OL.

To think that they're bragging about their Air Canada 2.0, I'm surprised that haven't made that move yet. Or their Air Canada 2.0 is just a flash in a pan. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by M.O.A.B.

[Bigblue204]

6 minutes ago, Mark F said:

its odd how these coaches, who definitely know a lot, outsmart themselves. why stop running powell, he was doing very well, up the middle.

 

wierd.

 

used to be, if its working, keep doing it till they show they can stop it. now.... 

its eleven dimensional chess.

 

18 minutes ago, johnzo said:

I was surprised at how the Riders underutilized their biggest asset on O against us -- Powell.  Toronto showed that our run D wasn't perfect  .... if Powell puts some runs together that could loosen up the passing game enough for Fajardo to succeed.  Don't know if that green OL can run block any better than it can pass block though.

He had a couple of decent runs. But for the most part was stuck to 2-3 yard gains. You can't play catch up like that. They need to get Powell going, but he was far from effective last week.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Bigblue204

[GCn20]

3 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

 

He had a couple of decent runs. But for the most part was stuck to 2-3 yard gains. You can't play catch up like that. They need to get Powell going, but he was far from effective last week.

For sure. Everyone remembers the 10 yard runs but no one is remembering the half dozen times he was stopped for minimal gains before each of them. For the most part when they tried to utilize Powell they were left in 2nd and long. They need to challenge the flats more and spread our defence out. Bighill was teeing off all game long because the Riders tried to do everything between the tackles and didn't have the horses to make that happen.

[JCon]

He ran more in the previous games. Only 8 carries in the LDC, for 44 yards. 

His runs:

Q1 

-1 yard.

Q2

0 yards

16 yards

10 yards

Q3

4 yards

11 yards

0 yards

Q4

4 yards

 

I'm missing one but it's not in the log as far as I can see. It would be for 4 yards if the total stats are correct. 

 

Didn't really give him a chance to get going. 3 of his 8 runs were 10+ yards. 

 

EDIT: Found the 4 yard rush. After the fumble, in the Q3, by CF. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by JCon

[Booch]

The Rider's won't...well can't try to establish a run game for 2 reasons...lousy O-line...like god awful, and Powell I think is done...also until they can show that they can consistently drive the ball down field then the run just won't be there.

Now with the combined lack of quality O-line play to give any time for the QB to let plays develop, and Fajardo not showing he can be that QB and I doubt ever will be (weak 50/50 shots) do not make a stretch the defense offence...the book on him is out..Make him be a complete QB....AND he wilts...we've been doing it since the Banjo Bowl of 2019.

There is a reason he was a career short yardage QB and sure had a bit of success last year, but wasn't phenomenal by any stretch, and wilted down the stretch once teams seen his repertoire. He caught some off-guard in the first 3rd of season, but it didn't last...and like Willy said...The first 3 games of the season for them ..at home...was a gimme....be tough sledding now

They have us...Then T.O who I think will give them fits if they don't play undisciplined then B.C and ack to back against CGY...I don't think writing CGY off yet is the smart thing, and B.C is leaps and bounds better than the first game they played them...we win and put them 3-2 on saturday I think that a 2-2 split in next 4 is most likely for them...at best....flawed team over there, and the selfish penalties will creep in when the losing starts as Dickie Boi has no control over that crew of players....they definately don't have the FIFO concept going on there

Edited September 8, 2021 by Booch

[Bigblue204]

It's honestly surprising to see his lack of carries in the 1st Q. 

[Noeller]

 

 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, M.O.A.B. said:

To think that they're bragging about their Air Canada 2.0, I'm surprised that haven't made that move yet. Or their Air Canada 2.0 is just a flash in a pan. 

I think its way, way too soon to be proclaiming their ni wrs air canada 2.0. They have a talented young group. Couple years ago we did too. 

54 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's honestly surprising to see his lack of carries in the 1st Q. 

As booch said, they just dont have an OL remotely capable of pounding the ball consistently.  Especially not vs a front 7 like ours. But really, they arent a group you can expect to run 20 times a game vs any cfl DL. 

Combine that with maas whose play book and inclination is to drop back 35+ times a game and its pretty much the kiss of death for your run game. Powell looks to have lost a step too and was never fast. 

Powell is basically a decoy now, and most effective in surprise usage. His two best runs came on a delayed hand off and a full on draw play on 2nd and long. 

They cant run the ball, and cant throw it down field. 

Just now, Noeller said:

 

 

Dont know what they could or would change. Unless some one like lirim is signed its gonna be par for the course for a while. 

[rebusrankin]

Powell isn't very good right now. Big drop off from 2019.

[wbbfan]

I rewatched the LDC and took a detailed look at the offensive play call. Man its strange. We are deadly allergic to using play action in the pass game. When we used jet motion to spread the D for the inside zone runs no one follows the motion. We havent used the jet sweep to set up a screen pass, it couldve scored an un touched major every time if we just PA'd harris and tossed it to the sweeper.  

We used the jet sweep to the same side as our fake power toss to harris. A power toss we havent run all year. And we had a slow blocking scheme with 2 pulling ol. And maybe the strangest part is we pulled the guard right in front of the sweep hand off. Lanier the riders back up dt just walked right into the back field and instantly tackled Bailey. We didnt run it or any of our run plays as a read option. If it had been a read option collaros couldve walked the naked bootleg for 20 +yards.

Woli really had another phenomenal game blocking. Bailey not soo much. But I mean he ended up on the wil a couple times. Woli can turn a will inside out. Bailey struggles with Sams. 

The riders like most teams really crowded the box to take our run away. We frequently run into 7-8 man boxes with 6 blockers and no read to occupy 1 extra man. If we started mixing in some outside zone runs and walling off the over zealous pursuits of harris and let him cut it back he'd be getting a lot more 7+ yard runs in place of fighting tooth and nail for 1-3 yards.

Our heavy set with Eli and miller eats up defenses. Especially when woli is also on the field. Its 7/8 blockers and we just eat up opposing defenses. Teams just dont have the depth of front 7 players that can get off the great blocks of those 3. Its a man handling. 

I dont expect to see us start to adopt RPO this year. But if we mixed in draws, out side zone runs, screens to jet sweepers, and attacked Lbers positions on play action with crossers and yankee concept (combo routes with some one attacking the mid field with another wr running off the S/HB with a deep route) we'd torch defenses. 

[wbbfan]

Also, we've been using an 11 formation with collaros under center, but we've only run out of it. The riders started keying on it pretty heavily as did the argos. That adjustment, the adam fumble and bailey drop was really what killed our offensive momentum.

[johnzo]

have a question -- what's a run blitz?  after the Toronto game people were talking about how the run blitz was effective against us and TO used it to good effect against Brady O and Collaros in their win.

from watching it seems like a blitz where everyone is disciplined about their lanes at first and once they figure out it's a dropback then they go at the QB.  Is there more to it than that?

[M.O.A.B.]

20 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I rewatched the LDC and took a detailed look at the offensive play call. Man its strange. We are deadly allergic to using play action in the pass game. When we used jet motion to spread the D for the inside zone runs no one follows the motion. We havent used the jet sweep to set up a screen pass, it couldve scored an un touched major every time if we just PA'd harris and tossed it to the sweeper.  

We used the jet sweep to the same side as our fake power toss to harris. A power toss we havent run all year. And we had a slow blocking scheme with 2 pulling ol. And maybe the strangest part is we pulled the guard right in front of the sweep hand off. Lanier the riders back up dt just walked right into the back field and instantly tackled Bailey. We didnt run it or any of our run plays as a read option. If it had been a read option collaros couldve walked the naked bootleg for 20 +yards.

Woli really had another phenomenal game blocking. Bailey not soo much. But I mean he ended up on the wil a couple times. Woli can turn a will inside out. Bailey struggles with Sams. 

The riders like most teams really crowded the box to take our run away. We frequently run into 7-8 man boxes with 6 blockers and no read to occupy 1 extra man. If we started mixing in some outside zone runs and walling off the over zealous pursuits of harris and let him cut it back he'd be getting a lot more 7+ yard runs in place of fighting tooth and nail for 1-3 yards.

Our heavy set with Eli and miller eats up defenses. Especially when woli is also on the field. Its 7/8 blockers and we just eat up opposing defenses. Teams just dont have the depth of front 7 players that can get off the great blocks of those 3. Its a man handling. 

I dont expect to see us start to adopt RPO this year. But if we mixed in draws, out side zone runs, screens to jet sweepers, and attacked Lbers positions on play action with crossers and yankee concept (combo routes with some one attacking the mid field with another wr running off the S/HB with a deep route) we'd torch defenses. 

😅

Edited September 8, 2021 by M.O.A.B.

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, johnzo said:

have a question -- what's a run blitz?  after the Toronto game people were talking about how the run blitz was effective against us and TO used it to good effect against Brady O and Collaros in their win.

from watching it seems like a blitz where everyone is disciplined about their lanes at first and once they figure out it's a dropback then they go at the QB.  Is there more to it than that?

A run blitz is when you send extra defenders, generally linebackers into the back field, but instead of running in in pursuit of the qb they are fixated on the RB and more cautious and aware of angles. You might send a lber off the edge but in a contain rush. Very much the same as you might do to a qb whose primary skill is running. Its often mixed with twists where rushers switch the rush lane from the one they line up in, it helps disturb inside zone runs like ours. 

Technically a blitz is when you send 1 more rusher than the offense has blockers, but its generally used for sending any rushers other than the DL. Sending pressure that is less than a blitz (like we frequently do with Bighill and our wils) is technically a stunt. 

Toronto mixed run blitzes, twists, Gap cancellation (dl and lbers attacking the gaps rather than the OL infront of them) and edge contain very well. They also anchored and released. Engaging with the OL, but not trying to rush. Waiting for the rb to get close then rip away from the OL to make a tackle. Basically trying to hold your ground with the OL, not mash them or beat them. 

Pretty much tldr yes. 

[Zach Schnitzer]

15 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

A run blitz is when you send extra defenders, generally linebackers into the back field, but instead of running in in pursuit of the qb they are fixated on the RB and more cautious and aware of angles. You might send a lber off the edge but in a contain rush. Very much the same as you might do to a qb whose primary skill is running. Its often mixed with twists where rushers switch the rush lane from the one they line up in, it helps disturb inside zone runs like ours. 

Technically a blitz is when you send 1 more rusher than the offense has blockers, but its generally used for sending any rushers other than the DL. Sending pressure that is less than a blitz (like we frequently do with Bighill and our wils) is technically a stunt. 

Toronto mixed run blitzes, twists, Gap cancellation (dl and lbers attacking the gaps rather than the OL infront of them) and edge contain very well. They also anchored and released. Engaging with the OL, but not trying to rush. Waiting for the rb to get close then rip away from the OL to make a tackle. Basically trying to hold your ground with the OL, not mash them or beat them. 

Pretty much tldr yes. 

this is awesome info, thanks. i've always been interested in x's and o's but never played. loved your analysis of our offensive. to my untrained eye, buck's offence looks very vanilla, slow, predictable... whereas Lapo seemed to have much more pre-snap movement and ways to get AH in space. 

what do you think is going on with Buck? do you think our offence will improve? 

[Booch]

1 minute ago, Bombers9256 said:

this is awesome info, thanks. i've always been interested in x's and o's but never played. loved your analysis of our offensive. to my untrained eye, buck's offence looks very vanilla, slow, predictable... whereas Lapo seemed to have much more pre-snap movement and ways to get AH in space. 

what do you think is going on with Buck? do you think our offence will improve? 

a lot of that Harris involvement was soley on Nichols, not Lapo. Nichols gave up on the progressions too soon and used Harris as a safety blanket, or didnt have the ability to extend the play t take a shot like Zack does...hence the lack of tosses to the running back's

The dump off to Harris is Zack's last resort....he's always looking downfield, or may just take off...I like this better as it will take a lot of the wear and tear of Harris as he won't be getting hit as much as he was...when he is mainly running he is inflicting the hits

[Zach Schnitzer]

2 minutes ago, Booch said:

a lot of that Harris involvement was soley on Nichols, not Lapo. Nichols gave up on the progressions too soon and used Harris as a safety blanket, or didnt have the ability to extend the play t take a shot like Zack does...hence the lack of tosses to the running back's

The dump off to Harris is Zack's last resort....he's always looking downfield, or may just take off...I like this better as it will take a lot of the wear and tear of Harris as he won't be getting hit as much as he was...when he is mainly running he is inflicting the hits

good points, for sure--and i definitely prefer Zach's arm and ability/willingness to throw under pressure and into coverage. still, i find we could do more with the run game. 

[Booch]

watch some of the last few years game tape if u can....most times Harris was Nichols second read if the initial one wasn't there, and many times it was, but Nichols wouldn't pull the trigger on it...Harris took a beating with all the excessive hits he took...amazing he performed as he did

[wbbfan]

Just now, Booch said:

a lot of that Harris involvement was soley on Nichols, not Lapo. Nichols gave up on the progressions too soon and used Harris as a safety blanket, or didnt have the ability to extend the play t take a shot like Zack does...hence the lack of tosses to the running back's

The dump off to Harris is Zack's last resort....he's always looking downfield, or may just take off...I like this better as it will take a lot of the wear and tear of Harris as he won't be getting hit as much as he was...when he is mainly running he is inflicting the hits

This is a big thing too. People think harris has disappeared from the passing game. Hes just as good at catching it out of the back field as ever, and as open as usual but collaros is finding guys down field. Slowly teams will sag on him more and more in the pass game he will probably see a bit more passes and first downs rather than getting a 5 yard toss on 2nd and 10 and being swallowed up. 

Id love to see them start sending harris on deeper routes. The old out n up, wheel stuff and even just 10-15 down field. What a nightmare for a wil to try and cover him. 

1 minute ago, Bombers9256 said:

this is awesome info, thanks. i've always been interested in x's and o's but never played. loved your analysis of our offensive. to my untrained eye, buck's offence looks very vanilla, slow, predictable... whereas Lapo seemed to have much more pre-snap movement and ways to get AH in space. 

what do you think is going on with Buck? do you think our offence will improve? 

Np, I love the Xs and Os and talking about football gameplans. 

It certainly is more straight forward. Plop had a love for niche trick plays. The famous once a year darvin adams pass, or direct snaps to harris, throw backs etc. But most of what buck has taken out is very rarely used, (and still might be used) or low efficiency stuff. He's streamlined our offense, and I hope he is slowly adding to it. 

Itll really be all about how he adapts. What we are doing right now is creating a lot of defensive shifts. We are opening a whole bunch of options that could take our offense to 2001/2002 levels. I worry buck isnt going to adapt but I hope he will. Ive been watching closely and after the game at the half way point, week 7, we have a bye so Ill probably make a tldr post about bucks offense in the first half. 

[Dr Zaius]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

I rewatched the LDC and took a detailed look at the offensive play call. Man its strange. We are deadly allergic to using play action in the pass game. When we used jet motion to spread the D for the inside zone runs no one follows the motion. We havent used the jet sweep to set up a screen pass, it couldve scored an un touched major every time if we just PA'd harris and tossed it to the sweeper.  

We used the jet sweep to the same side as our fake power toss to harris. A power toss we havent run all year. And we had a slow blocking scheme with 2 pulling ol. And maybe the strangest part is we pulled the guard right in front of the sweep hand off. Lanier the riders back up dt just walked right into the back field and instantly tackled Bailey. We didnt run it or any of our run plays as a read option. If it had been a read option collaros couldve walked the naked bootleg for 20 +yards.

Woli really had another phenomenal game blocking. Bailey not soo much. But I mean he ended up on the wil a couple times. Woli can turn a will inside out. Bailey struggles with Sams. 

The riders like most teams really crowded the box to take our run away. We frequently run into 7-8 man boxes with 6 blockers and no read to occupy 1 extra man. If we started mixing in some outside zone runs and walling off the over zealous pursuits of harris and let him cut it back he'd be getting a lot more 7+ yard runs in place of fighting tooth and nail for 1-3 yards.

Our heavy set with Eli and miller eats up defenses. Especially when woli is also on the field. Its 7/8 blockers and we just eat up opposing defenses. Teams just dont have the depth of front 7 players that can get off the great blocks of those 3. Its a man handling. 

I dont expect to see us start to adopt RPO this year. But if we mixed in draws, out side zone runs, screens to jet sweepers, and attacked Lbers positions on play action with crossers and yankee concept (combo routes with some one attacking the mid field with another wr running off the S/HB with a deep route) we'd torch defenses. 

cc: buckpierce@winnipegbluebombers.com

Edited September 8, 2021 by Dr Zaius

[wbbfan]

Just now, Booch said:

watch some of the last few years game tape if u can....most times Harris was Nichols second read if the initial one wasn't there, and many times it was, but Nichols wouldn't pull the trigger on it...Harris took a beating with all the excessive hits he took...amazing he performed as he did

295 touches in 19, 297 in 18, 317 in 17. In 19 nichols threw 240 times in 18 392 and 572 in 17. Stanback in 19 had 214 touches. 

Harris was our no1 and no2 option on most plays and at worst our no1 and no3. Its insane how well hes held up. 

[Booch]

Getting Harris was more the catalyst to us getting where we are than the Nichols signing....He helped don't get me wrong and solidified the QB position, but if he didn't have a talent like Harris...would have been a different story.

Just imagine if we could have had Harris right from the start, or at the 3 yr point in his career

[Bubba Zanetti]

50 tickets left for the Banjo Bowl!

[17to85]

3 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's honestly surprising to see his lack of carries in the 1st Q. 

Is it? Bombers chewed up the clock with Harris and got quick punts from the riders. Textbook start to a road game.

[Booch]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Is it? Bombers chewed up the clock with Harris and got quick punts from the riders. Textbook start to a road game.

i see Harris with 20 carries at least in Banjo Bowl...if not 20 carries...20 touches as we grind the snot out of them