Back to school week GDT - non banjo pickin’ inbred games

[wbbfan]

12 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

This is a laughable take. A guy with 6 games experience is a huge upgrade over a seventeen year coach with 4 Grey Cup appearances, 2 rings, has had the number 1 or 2 scoring offence 6 times, and the league’s best rushing offence the past 3 years? And Buck learned under LaPo to boot. Ridiculous statement.  

Your haterade must have a memory loss drug in it. LaPo coached Khari when he ripped the league apart and led in 2002, coached Darian Durant when he finished just 1 behind Calvillo for the league lead in 2009, coached Nichols when he finished second, only 2 behind Reilly, and Nichols was leading the league last season when he got knocked out halfway through the year, and prorated he would have led the league if he played out the full season. After 6 games in 2019, Nichols had 13 TDs to Collaros’ 9 this year. 

Football offense has changed a LOT in the past 6 and 10 years. A lot of older COs cant cut it right now. John jenkins was one of the best spread offense minds in history and crapped out hard. Do you have any idea the pedigree gary crowton had? Do you know how much experience sean mcvay had when he became the youngest HC in modern history at 30? But hey lets fire buck and bring back Mike Kelly. Hes got rings and decades of experience! 😆

Lapo got fired in 2002 too. And no one complained in bomber land. The nichols offense also had the best average starting position in the league in 19 (we have the worst now) the most turn overs on defense, and the most rushing yards (we have the lowest rushing avg and 5th yards) the 19 nichols pre injury team also lead the league in 2 and outs and we are in the top half now for fewest. The nichols 19 pre injury offense was tied for 7th in passing yards. This year we are 2nd in passing yards. You put that offensive play call and that nichols in the position this teams offense is and we are F%^$ed. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by wbbfan

[wbbfan]

9 hours ago, Brandon said:

If Buck Pierce was the OC of the Redblacks right now... do we really think that they would look much different?  The talent on that team is extremely low. 

They'd have arbuckle rather than nichols, no flanders and probably wouldnt have the former bomber PR LT and turnstyle mcgloster starting. 

They wouldnt be averaged 5 yards per completion either. Would they be good? Hell no. Would they be better? no question. Idk how many coaches would think they could run the system plop is and does, with that OL and running back talent. OCs and HCs have to adjust their game plan to the pieces they have, and to the team they are facing. Buck has shown moderate signs of doing this. Plop hasnt showed any. 

[TBURGESS]

The reason our offence is much better this year is the same reason it was much better in our playoff run last year... Collaros.

[MOBomberFan]

Is it good QBs and WRs that make OCs look good or the other way around? Surely it goes both ways... but I believe talent trumps scheme in that you can have the best laid plans go to **** again and again if you physically can't execute.

[17to85]

7 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Is it good QBs and WRs that make OCs look good or the other way around? Surely it goes both ways... but I believe talent trumps scheme in that you can have the best laid plans go to **** again and again if you physically can't execute.

The best OCs are the ones that best utilize the talent they have.  Lapo has a history of believing you match players to his system. Pierce I think is much more of a adjust to the players you have as opposed to believing 100% in your system. 

[Rich]

There was talk on CJOB on the post game show after the game how Collaros was misused and unhappy in Saskatchewan.   Was being forced to play in a way that didn't match his skillset.  Not allowed to run outside the pocket, very much was constrained to the "system".

You need to be matching both coaching and talent to succeed.  It can't be just because of one.

[wbbfan]

14 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Is it good QBs and WRs that make OCs look good or the other way around? Surely it goes both ways... but I believe talent trumps scheme in that you can have the best laid plans go to **** again and again if you physically can't execute.

It does go both ways. Lots of times good and great systems make players look much better. Maas has covered up for fajardo a lot this year, and last year they did too. A lot of old 90s early 2k run and shoot ncaa qbs etc. 

 Scheme can diminish talent. A perfect example is our WRs last year. This year lucky, demski, adams, woli, and lawler would be the best wr core in the league if used properly. Last year lucky spent half the year on the PR because all plop would do is use him to run off the saftey. If lucky sticks it out up here, hes gonna be way better than banks or chris williams ever where. Hes not just fast, hes quick. 

Woli is an example too. The guy doesnt just fail to get open then suddenly bust open when we throw it to him. He lives on an island thats hard to throw to and blocks in alot of our scheme. 

10 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The best OCs are the ones that best utilize the talent they have.  Lapo has a history of believing you match players to his system. Pierce I think is much more of a adjust to the players you have as opposed to believing 100% in your system. 

That was the long held standard. But in the modern day with teams ability to review plays at the bench and adapt, and how much study goes into film its a necessity now.  If you look at any high level football OCs day plan the week of a game they spend 10+ hours installing new stuff to fit their weapons and to attack a defenses weakness. Lapo is antiquated in that sense, as well as lacking. 

Most offensive minded coaches come from a strong lineage in a style, usually today its one of three sytems, spread to pass, spread to run, and zone read style offenses. And the thing is, the depth of plays available and over lap is gigantic. And the roots are soo strong and deep if you lack in an area a phone call can net you 10 years worth of trial and error self learning. So if you dont have a flex guy that can block and run deep, or a guy who can rack up YAC and run sweeps or a back who cant run between the tackles or off tackle etc you can fill the gap in your play book with stuff thats just as good but fits the pieces you have. 

Plop is very much a self taught coach. He doesnt have those roots. Thats why he always just hammers away with the same stuff till he finds a player that fits what he does. Remember how many terrible jet sweeps we ran with dressler on his last leg and after dressler left till we found demski really good at them? 2 years of futility. 

 Opposition defenses are gonna know what youre gonna run in the game for the most part. And they will know with decent certainty when you are running the ball. If you run sweep or fake sweep and dont have a guy who can execute sweep youre just hanging your players out to dry. In modern football you just have to be better than that. 

I hope buck improves. So far this year ive been underwhelmed by his play call. But Ocing/playcalling is the hardest coaching job in sports. And its his first year, so I hope he will grow and improve. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

The best OCs are the ones that best utilize the talent they have.  Lapo has a history of believing you match players to his system. Pierce I think is much more of a adjust to the players you have as opposed to believing 100% in your system. 

And yet LaPo maximized the talent he had with a deep passing game when he had Stegall and Khari in 02 and 03, until Khari broke down, and used Roberts to great effect. Then in Sask. he turned Durant into a prolific passer with a good receiving corps. When he arrived in 2016 we just got Andrew Harris, and the game plan shifted to more run heavy to exploit his talents. And he saw the unique skill set of Streveler and incorporated his skills as another running threat into the game plan. And with Nichols he saw a guy who couldn’t scramble or buy time but could protect the ball and avoid bad decisions for the most part, so he applied a game management system that emphasized ball security. Curious why you think he matched Harris and Streveler to his system rather than adapting his system to their strengths, as one example?

[17to85]

1 minute ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

And yet LaPo maximized the talent he had with a deep passing game when he had Stegall and Khari in 02 and 03, until Khari broke down, and used Roberts to great effect. Then in Sask. he turned Durant into a prolific passer with a good receiving corps. When he arrived in 2016 we just got Andrew Harris, and the game plan shifted to more run heavy to exploit his talents. And he saw the unique skill set of Streveler and incorporated his skills as another running threat into the game plan. And with Nichols he saw a guy who couldn’t scramble or buy time but could protect the ball and avoid bad decisions for the most part, so he applied a game management system that emphasized ball security. Curious why you think he matched Harris and Streveler to his system rather than adapting his system to their strengths, as one example?

You really think he got the most out of Streveler? Cause to me Streveler became a worse passer the longer he was in this offense. And come on with 02. Stegall and Bruce you go deep and Khari will lob it up to whichever is not double covered. Yeah so smart, much brains. Deep shots to Stegall and Bruce or let Charlie and Sellers bash and crash on the ground. Brilliant stuff. Oh and he also got Jones shoulder crippled too. Got Willy smoked more times than was good for him and ruined whatever he might have become. Nichols got a dinged up shoulder too. He's lucky Durant was such a horse or he might have got him crippled too. 

Let's be honest, it was talked about how Harris was the perfect Lapo back for a long long time. That was a case of getting a player that was going to fit. Same reason Demski was a fit. Dressler was another good fit. And isn't it interesting that Whitehead looks like a heck of a receiver when he's not being played to try and make him a Dressler 2.0. 

Lapo is very much over rated. He can do some good things but overall he is lacking. We are luck to have won with him as OC. 

[wbbfan]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

And yet LaPo maximized the talent he had with a deep passing game when he had Stegall and Khari in 02 and 03, until Khari broke down, and used Roberts to great effect. Then in Sask. he turned Durant into a prolific passer with a good receiving corps. When he arrived in 2016 we just got Andrew Harris, and the game plan shifted to more run heavy to exploit his talents. And he saw the unique skill set of Streveler and incorporated his skills as another running threat into the game plan. And with Nichols he saw a guy who couldn’t scramble or buy time but could protect the ball and avoid bad decisions for the most part, so he applied a game management system that emphasized ball security. Curious why you think he matched Harris and Streveler to his system rather than adapting his system to their strengths, as one example?

That deep atack wasnt plop. The screen passes to rbs and heavy run up the middle no matter what, that was plop. Khari, like collaros in the play off run threw guys deep at times, and threw away from the look. You can see it a lot actually if you watch the wrs when collaros is throwing long you can see the patters nichols frequently threw.

Having 1 guy deep, isnt a down field passing game. Its running off the saftey and corner / db. A deep threat passing game has multiple deep routes like the famous 4/5 verts run n gun. 

He had an offense with the most productive backfield in history, the best wr and an elite qb. And got fired lol. 

He didnt turn durant into a prolific passer. Plop was the oc in 08 and 09. in 08 durant had 1100 yards 7 picks 6 tds. 4k 25 and 21 in 09. Plop gets fired. Durant instantly throws for 1200 more yards and a full yard more per attempt. His best play came after plop, inspite of him. You look at all those early picks, thats a guy trying to force the ball down field with very limited targets down field to throw to. 

He made piss poor use of streveler. He tried implementing RPO/zone option late in the 19 season. Before that we faked the option. And the attempted implementation was bad. When streveler was in for us he mostly ran for his life. 

Nichols could run fine when he got here. He had the monster 50 yard run in 17 when he put up 200 yards rushing. 

Harris is a fast tough runner. He has solid power, but his running strength is hands down off tackle. He's much better stiff arming line backers and dbs than running through the gaps. He is still good at that, and not limited by any means. But we hardly ever use or used him off tackle. He cuts back or bounces out side on closed gaps and tears defenses apart. Being such a strong receiver as well, you could do serious damage down field throwing to him. What wil lber is gonna be able to cover him 10 yards + down field?

As for examples of guys we used poorly or not at all the list is gigantic. From lucky, to dressing Flanders as a DI for 12 ish games and almost never using him. We never used 2 backs, we never moved harris to slot and brought flanders in didnt spell harris with flanders nothing. We wasted a DI for a ton of games. Can you imagine what harris at slot motioning the jet sweep would open?

 

[TrueBlue4ever]

You simply said he makes players adapt to his system, then you agree he made his system fit with the players like Stegall, Bruce and Roberts. So even if it is a no-brainer, he did not do what you claim he always does. And I personally was never impressed with Streveler as a passer from the get go. Apparently neither was Kyle Walters, since he brought in Collaros rather than ride it out with Chris in 2019. 
 

Bottom line, I can accept that at times his play calling got “too safe” and tried to change mid-game when it had been working. But I also remember people complaining when he didn’t change mid-game and the other defence adjusted. I am just blown away by how much people still jump all over him when he has been gone for 2 years. It’s not like we are failing with him now at the helm, and it’s not like we didn’t succeed when he was here. I’ve read pages of “who sucked more, LaPo or Nichols” and you would think we were talking about Stefan LaFors and Joe Zaleski levels of ineptitude. And both these guys were winners at the end of the day. After 29 years and some brutal teams, that matters a lot more to me than whether or not they ran up the score in the 4th quarter instead of playing ball control kill the clock and won by 10 instead of 25 or losing by turning the ball over. And I just wonder why if LaPo is so obviously bad, why some need to make up  false stuff (LaPo’s QB never led the league in TD passes) to prove their point. But I have your point, and you have mine. We’ll agree to disagree, and I will satisfy myself with the 2019 Grey Cup banner he was a part of. 

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

You really think he got the most out of Streveler? Cause to me Streveler became a worse passer the longer he was in this offense. And come on with 02. Stegall and Bruce you go deep and Khari will lob it up to whichever is not double covered. Yeah so smart, much brains. Deep shots to Stegall and Bruce or let Charlie and Sellers bash and crash on the ground. Brilliant stuff. Oh and he also got Jones shoulder crippled too. Got Willy smoked more times than was good for him and ruined whatever he might have become. Nichols got a dinged up shoulder too. He's lucky Durant was such a horse or he might have got him crippled too. 

Let's be honest, it was talked about how Harris was the perfect Lapo back for a long long time. That was a case of getting a player that was going to fit. Same reason Demski was a fit. Dressler was another good fit. And isn't it interesting that Whitehead looks like a heck of a receiver when he's not being played to try and make him a Dressler 2.0. 

Lapo is very much over rated. He can do some good things but overall he is lacking. We are luck to have won with him as OC. 

Soo much this, streveler was a dual threat qb, but a great throwing prospect. Not just some athletic guy who could slot in at qb. For an oc to make a guy worse is the worst thing to do. And with out question he did that to streveler. 

This just in, getting the best RB in the league is good for ocing. More news at 10. Idk how any credit can go to plop involving harris. He was a beast before we signed him. Demski was finally the fit he wanted. But dressler in the jet sweep was poor. The guy was also ran into the dirt on those plays. He was dynamic but he wasnt really good on those. He easily couldve played a couple more years if not for that. And been more healthy when we needed him. 

Plop is the only OC ive ever known to have every teams fan base love his being fired. Theres a reason why the guy averages a new team every other year and fell out of the league for 5 years. 

[17to85]

See here's the thing, I have never thought of lapo as totally useless... but he is more of a loser than a winner. The guy frankly needs his defence to be all world for him to win. 2002 was also his first go round as an OC and one might argue that he's been trying to capture what he had there the entire time. Couple great receivers and a RB/FB combo that were great pass catchers out of the backfield and could run the ball effectively as well.  

His play not to lose mentality and arrogance around how offense should be played is what ultimately holds him back. 

 

I mean we had success offensively in the semi-final vs. calgary because Streveler ran all over the Stamps D in the 2nd half and the offence was good in the Grey Cup, but can we honestly say we were fans of the offensive production in the West final? They just hung on for dear life and hoped the defence and special teams would carry the day. I also go back to the swaggerville grey cup game too. Lapo's offence didn't try to win that game, they just hoped for the defence to carry the day. Can't stand a guy who has that attitude and at this point it's too deeply ingrained to change cause he comes across as very arrogant and unwilling to change. 

[wbbfan]

Just now, TrueBlue4ever said:

You simply said he makes players adapt to his system, then you agree he made his system fit with the players like Stegall, Bruce and Roberts. So even if it is a no-brainer, he did not do what you claim he always does. And I personally was never impressed with Streveler as a passer from the get go. Apparently neither was Kyle Walters, since he brought in Collaros rather than ride it out with Chris in 2019. 
 

Bottom line, I can accept that at times his play calling got “too safe” and tried to change mid-game when it had been working. But I also remember people complaining when he didn’t change mid-game and the other defence adjusted. I am just blown away by how much people still jump all over him when he has been gone for 2 years. It’s not like we are failing with him now at the helm, and it’s not like we didn’t succeed when he was here. I’ve read pages of “who sucked more, LaPo or Nichols” and you would think we were talking about Stefan LaFors and Joe Zaleski levels of ineptitude. And both these guys were winners at the end of the day. After 29 years and some brutal teams, that matters a lot more to me than whether or not they ran up the score in the 4th quarter instead of playing ball control kill the clock and won by 10 instead of 25 or losing by turning the ball over. And I just wonder why if LaPo is so obviously bad, why some need to make up  false stuff (LaPo’s QB never led the league in TD passes) to prove their point. But I have your point, and you have mine. We’ll agree to disagree, and I will satisfy myself with the 2019 Grey Cup banner he was a part of. 

He did though. He forced them into his role. They couldve done more in a better system that played to their strengths. As much as possible, khari and milt pushed out side the boundaries of his system. You should also go back and see the amount of plays khari called in 2002. And audibles made. 

You dont seem to understand the difference between changing for the sake of change, and working wrinkles in and setting up progressive plays. You screen/hitch then you double move screen / hitch and go. Plop screen / hitched 90 times, then threw an out. He ran inside zone read from pistol/gun 90 times, then he ran a direct snap inside zone read. The defense takes away the screen pass, you adjust by play action screening one side, and jail break screen or liberty hand off to a jet sweeper.

Ocing is about tendencies. You have to have plays that break your tendencies, and you have to have plays that your tendencies set up. So when teams take away your bread and butter you can have steak. Plop has never understood that. He has tendencies, if the D takes them away he keeps on going to them. To shake them up he mixes in random un related tricks and gadgets. And generally I love tricks and gadgets. But he used them worse than any other OC in the last 20 ish years. 

People hate mediocrity. More then epic failure. Maybe gary crowton or one of a mix of OC by committee was the worst Ocing we ever saw in bomber ville. But the most absolutely mediocre OC with no signs or seeming interest in improving was plop. Its worse in pro sports to be mediocre than bad. You can turn bad around fast, mediocre stays that way for a long time. 

Mike kelly and sean salisbury had great accolades and grey cup too. Then milt, brown, blink and khari didnt get one. Doesnt mean they are good or where better.

Dont forget too, the bombers had the greatest turnover forcing defense in league history, and most field goals ever to carry the mediocre passing game. And an excellent resurgent qb to carry our passing game to the GC. Nichols and plop should split their ring with Mo leggett and some others. 

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

See here's the thing, I have never thought of lapo as totally useless... but he is more of a loser than a winner. The guy frankly needs his defence to be all world for him to win. 2002 was also his first go round as an OC and one might argue that he's been trying to capture what he had there the entire time. Couple great receivers and a RB/FB combo that were great pass catchers out of the backfield and could run the ball effectively as well.  

His play not to lose mentality and arrogance around how offense should be played is what ultimately holds him back. 

 

I mean we had success offensively in the semi-final vs. calgary because Streveler ran all over the Stamps D in the 2nd half and the offence was good in the Grey Cup, but can we honestly say we were fans of the offensive production in the West final? They just hung on for dear life and hoped the defence and special teams would carry the day. I also go back to the swaggerville grey cup game too. Lapo's offence didn't try to win that game, they just hoped for the defence to carry the day. Can't stand a guy who has that attitude and at this point it's too deeply ingrained to change cause he comes across as very arrogant and unwilling to change. 

Plop is the poster boy for mediocrity. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

I yeah, 23-13 in his first go-round with the Bombers. 44-28 in his second OC stint, playoffs every year, and a Grey Cup in 2019. A Grey Cup appearance in 2011 sandwiched in between. 34-19-1 in Sask. with two Cup appearances and a win. What a loser. But of course, it had nothing to do with him, all the success was on the players, and all the failure is on him, right?

[wbbfan]

Just now, TrueBlue4ever said:

I yeah, 23-13 in his first go-round with the Bombers. 44-28 in his second OC stint, playoffs every year, and a Grey Cup in 2019. A Grey Cup appearance in 2011 sandwiched in between. 34-19-1 in Sask. with two Cup appearances and a win. What a loser. But of course, it had nothing to do with him, all the success was on the players, and all the failure is on him, right?

The teams record when youre on it doesnt much matter, if youre carried. If you think he was any thing less than carried by offensive talent in his first go around, then D, medlock, harris and the OL the 2nd your fooling your self. Or maybe just trolling idk. 

Who knows why every team in the league keeps firing the guy on average after 2 years. You should maybe call around and tell them the spiel about the GC ring and play off games. 

Great teams have won at all levels in all leagues with poorly run and in effective offenses. Youd be hard pressed to find a worse passing team in a year to win the grey cup. Probably have to go back to the wing T era.

Just because we won, doesnt mean we didnt carry plop. If we had a good or great OC, we have another grey cup and a fist full more play off wins. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

37 minutes ago, wbbfan said:Who knows why every team in the league keeps firing the guy on average after 2 years. You should maybe call around and tell them the spiel about the GC ring and play off games.

Except that isn’t true. Only fired twice as far as I can tell. Maybe ask why he keeps getting promoted if he is being carried everywhere and has nothing to do with the success that magically follows him around more often than not?

[wbbfan]

Just now, TrueBlue4ever said:

Except that isn’t true. Only fired twice as far as I can tell. Maybe ask why he keeps getting promoted if he is being carried everywhere and has nothing to do with the success that magically follows him around more often than not?

He was 100% canned here twice, canned in sask, hamilton, toronto and about to be sacked again in ott. 

He got promoted in sask, because of the austin and doug berry mess above him. Thats it. 

The CFL loves to recycle. Especially coaches, and OCs. Do you remember the last paopao come back? If youve ever held a coaching job in the CFL and arent over the hill in age (some times even still) you can float between jobs. Going from a HC to a WR coach under 3 guys with HC exp is about as far as you can fall and stay in the league. 

[17to85]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I yeah, 23-13 in his first go-round with the Bombers. 44-28 in his second OC stint, playoffs every year, and a Grey Cup in 2019. A Grey Cup appearance in 2011 sandwiched in between. 34-19-1 in Sask. with two Cup appearances and a win. What a loser. But of course, it had nothing to do with him, all the success was on the players, and all the failure is on him, right?

So you're saying 2 grey cup wins in 17 years is worth celebrating? That doesn't exactly scream winner to me. Why didn't  we win when he was head coach/oc here unless the defence did it for him? Why did we need a shut down defence last year to win that grey cup? Lapo is a loser because of his passiveness. He was fired here twice and has a history of here of qbs getting worse the longer they played for him. 

Sure he seems like a nice guy and was good on TV, but his stubbornness is a problem for him as a coach.

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 minute ago, wbbfan said:

He was 100% canned here twice, canned in sask, hamilton, toronto and about to be sacked again in ott. 

He got promoted in sask, because of the austin and doug berry mess above him. Thats it. 

The CFL loves to recycle. Especially coaches, and OCs. Do you remember the last paopao come back? If youve ever held a coaching job in the CFL and arent over the hill in age (some times even still) you can float between jobs. Going from a HC to a WR coach under 3 guys with HC exp is about as far as you can fall and stay in the league. 

You say in one sentence he was canned in Sask and then say in the next sentence he was promoted. Which was it?  He left Toronto as receiver’s coach of his own accord to take a promotion as OC in Winnipeg. Got fired and went to Hamilton to be receiver’s coach. He left Hamilton to return to Toronto in a lateral move, and then another lateral move to Sask., no indication he was fired from either job from the sources I have. He got promoted in Sask. and left to take a head coaching gig in Winnipeg, step up not fired. Fired by the Bombers after signing an extension, and went into broadcasting to cash out a paycheque rather than take a new job and forfeit the contract I would speculate (remember some reports that he was offered other jobs but wanted to take some time). Hired by Winnipeg, stayed 4 years and took the promotion to Ottawa. Again, why make stuff up that is patently false (fired every 2 years by every team in the CFL)?

[TrueBlue4ever]

10 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So you're saying 2 grey cup wins in 17 years is worth celebrating?

Would be in this town for sure given the last 29 years. 

[TBURGESS]

15 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So you're saying 2 grey cup wins in 17 years is worth celebrating?

Yes. I wish we were celebrating 2 grey cups in the last 17 years. Maybe this year.

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

The reason our offence is much better this year is the same reason it was much better in our playoff run last year... Collaros.

Agree but Buck likes to push the ball down the field & not sit on a lead bigger than 10 points. 

[Jpan85]

I was shocked that Collaros threw that TD to Lawler was expecting them to just hand off and salt the game away.

[Bigblue204]

I've heard before that the 2002 offence was still very much reliant on the previous OC's scheme/playbook (I can't for the life of me remember the OC in 2001).