Vaccine Debate

[JCon]

It's the same as the climate change "debate". The science is overwhelming but there will always be those that deny it because some random report somewhere has convinced them.

 

If they don't believe the science and they don't believe the billions that have already been vaxxed, then there isn't much left to say. Just stay away from everyone else and stop complaining about the restrictions that you face for your own decisions. 

The "debate" has been over for age. 

[blue_gold_84]

1 minute ago, Tracker said:

Do not assume that because someone has MD after their name, they actually have smarts.

Andrew Wakefield is a prime example of that.

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

2 hours ago, JCon said:

Always freedumb without responsibility. 

Is that a quote from Bizarro world Uncle Ben?

[CodyT]

7 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Do not assume that because someone has MD after their name, they actually have smarts. Remember that at Jonesville, there were two doctors who fed cyanide to people, including their own children, there is a pediatrician in Texas who believes in demon seed sperm causing gayness, and several anti-vaxxer medical doctors held a pro-Ivermectin forum at (appropriately) an equestrian event- and promptly became infected. Their distorted thinking, if you can call it that, is beyond me, and I am used to talking to people with issues (present company exempted).

Did you watch the man speak? His biggest concern is mandating kids to get the vaccine. His view is their is evidence to suggest that this vaccine could be harmful to a childs heart. He could be right, he could be wrong. He is still practicing. 

I guess I am of the view that both sides of the coin should be discussed. Its interesting because in any other topic that would be an acceptable view. With something as important as what youre putting into your body I would figure people would want to have a discussion about it

Thank you to the posters above for the links-- they are helpful

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by CodyT

[Tiny759]

So question for everyone, what is the end goal? 100% vaxxed? Never allow people who didn’t get vaxxed to participate in society again? Open things up completely and everyone for themselves? 

[JCon]

1 minute ago, Tiny759 said:

So question for everyone, what is the end goal? 100% vaxxed? Never allow people who didn’t get vaxxed to participate in society again? Open things up completely and everyone for themselves? 

!00% vaccination. Yes. Sure. Heck no. 

[Tracker]

Just now, CodyT said:

Did you watch the man speak? His biggest concern is mandating kids to get the vaccine. His view is their is evidence to suggest that this vaccine could be harmful to a childs heart. He could be right, he could be wrong. He is still practicing. 

I guess I am of the view that both sides of the coin should be discussed. Its interesting because in any other topic that would be an acceptable view. With something as important as what youre putting into your body I would figure people would want to have a discussion about it

Thank you to the posters above for the links-- they are helpful

I cannot give you a citation, but a recent survey showed ZERO negative effects on cardiac function in vaccinated children.  There have been a very few isolated cases of adults who experienced cardiac inflammation, but there have been unverified suspicions that these were the result of pre-existing conditions. 

 

[Tiny759]

1 minute ago, JCon said:

!00% vaccination. Yes. Sure. Heck no. 

Do you think 100% is achievable? And do you think there is no problems down the road with isolating people? Or in let’s say 5 years they are allowed to participate? 

[blue_gold_84]

Just now, Tracker said:

I cannot give you a citation, but a recent survey showed ZERO negative effects on cardiac function in vaccinated children.  There have been a very few isolated cases of adults who experienced cardiac inflammation, but there have been unverified suspicions that these were the result of pre-existing conditions. 

And then there's the actual evidence of heart problems caused by the virus itself: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19

Quote

The cells in the heart have angiotensin converting enzyme-2 (ACE-2) receptors where the coronavirus attaches before entering cells. Heart damage can also be due to high levels of inflammation circulating in the body. As the body’s immune system fights off the virus, the inflammatory process can damage some healthy tissues, including the heart.

Coronavirus infection also affects the inner surfaces of veins and arteries, which can cause blood vessel inflammation, damage to very small vessels and blood clots, all of which can compromise blood flow to the heart or other parts of the body.

Which is to say nothing of the other issues the virus can cause. Long haul COVID seems utterly hellish.

[MOBomberFan]

11 minutes ago, Tiny759 said:

So question for everyone, what is the end goal? 100% vaxxed? Never allow people who didn’t get vaxxed to participate in society again? Open things up completely and everyone for themselves? 

I feel that the vaccination passport is great. Even better would be if it were combined with our driver's license so that it is one card for all purposes. People without medical exemptions who choose not to be vaccinated would then also be choosing not to be able to participate in events or functions that require vaccination. Businesses should be able to require proof of vaccination even if there are no public health orders requiring that they do so.

Now, I've said this out loud and been called a fascist and was told if I did not study history I would be doomed to repeat it. I asked what specifically they meant and they said I was promoting Nazism, and said I was as bad as those that wanted Jews to wear stars on their jackets. I then asked that person if they were such a history expert when did world war 2 start? They said 1941. These are not smart people.

Edited December 8, 2021 by MOBomberFan
I wish I could see how many people google "when did WWII start" after reading this

[CodyT]

5 minutes ago, Tracker said:

I cannot give you a citation, but a recent survey showed ZERO negative effects on cardiac function in vaccinated children.  There have been a very few isolated cases of adults who experienced cardiac inflammation, but there have been unverified suspicions that these were the result of pre-existing conditions. 

 

Thanks. I will take you at your word on that. 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by CodyT

[JCon]

Just now, Tiny759 said:

Do you think 100% is achievable? And do you think there is no problems down the road with isolating people? Or in let’s say 5 years they are allowed to participate? 

100%, no. But, 100% of those eligible, yes. I think that should be the goal. There are people with REAL health issues that cannot get the vaccine, so that means those of us that can get vaccinated should to help protect those that can't.  

People are choosing to be self-isolated. They are choosing to not participate in society. That's the choice they are making. I see more problems with giving them leeway to protect their "feelings" and perpetually continuing this pandemic. 

There will be a time, with a vaccinated population and isolated non-vaccination, that the virus will die off. When there are no cases, let them participate again. 

2 minutes ago, CodyT said:

Thanks. I will take you at your word on that. 

 

Don't! We demand sources from both sides of the debate. I trust Tracker but I still want the source. 

[CodyT]

1 minute ago, JCon said:

100%, no. But, 100% of those eligible, yes. I think that should be the goal. There are people with REAL health issues that cannot get the vaccine, so that means those of us that can get vaccinated should to help protect those that can't.  

People are choosing to be self-isolated. They are choosing to not participate in society. That's the choice they are making. I see more problems with giving them leeway to protect their "feelings" and perpetually continuing this pandemic. 

There will be a time, with a vaccinated population and isolated non-vaccination, that the virus will die off. When there are no cases, let them participate again. 

 

4 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

I feel that the vaccination passport is great. Even better would be if it were combined with our driver's license so that it is one card for all purposes. People without medical exemptions who choose not to be vaccinated would then also be choosing not to be able to participate in events or functions that require vaccination. Businesses should be able to require proof of vaccination even if there are no public health orders requiring that they do so.

Now, I've said this out loud and been called a fascist and was told if I did not study history I would be doomed to repeat it. I asked what specifically they meant and they said I was promoting Nazism, and said I was as bad as those that wanted Jews to wear stars on their jackets. I then asked that person if they were such a history expert when did world war 2 start? They said 1941. These are not smart people.

Nobody here is saying that? We havent even discussed the vaccine passports. 

[blue_gold_84]

2 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Now, I've said this out loud and been called a fascist and was told if I did not study history I would be doomed to repeat it. I asked what specifically they meant and they said I was promoting Nazism, and said I was as bad as those that wanted Jews to wear stars on their jackets. I then asked that person if they were such a history expert when did world war 2 start? They said 1941. These are not smart people.

Those are the very people who did not study history. At all.

To see anyone try and compare what's happening now to what took place during WWII and the Holocaust is just... I don't have the words.

[Mark H.]

1 minute ago, CodyT said:

Thanks. I will take you at your word on that. 

Im not allowed to look it up on the internet though, that would make me crazy. I do hope your correct. But see my point? If its something unpopular its all internet gargon, if its for the majorities point of view it should be taken at face value

I am not referring to you specifically, but I have seen first hand the damage that some internet info can do.

Do you know any unvaccinated people who are very sick from Covid?

I do. If you don't, be thankful.

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

17 minutes ago, Tiny759 said:

So question for everyone, what is the end goal? 100% vaxxed? Never allow people who didn’t get vaxxed to participate in society again? Open things up completely and everyone for themselves? 

Well unless you force it we are never going to get 100% vaxxed and even if we were 100% someone's gonna get it and die from it and they'll be 3x, 4x, 5x vaxxed.

A while ago i googled "How did the 1918 pandemic end?" and the result was "Everyone got it." Unfortunately unlike that "one and done" virus, Covid is  the new serial killer flu. Unless there is a real cure coming it'll be with us until we are dead and the best we can do is a once or twice yearly booster. Sounds negative but that's how i see it. 

Eventually we'll have to go the murican route and say **** it, you're on your own with hospital/care homes mask only and locked down tighter then a nuns habit.

Definitely the negative nanny post of the day. Sorry guys. 

FWIW: FW is 2x soon to be 3x vax with shots 4 and 5 already penciled in for 22.

Edited December 8, 2021 by FrostyWinnipeg

[CodyT]

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

100%, no. But, 100% of those eligible, yes. I think that should be the goal. There are people with REAL health issues that cannot get the vaccine, so that means those of us that can get vaccinated should to help protect those that can't.  

People are choosing to be self-isolated. They are choosing to not participate in society. That's the choice they are making. I see more problems with giving them leeway to protect their "feelings" and perpetually continuing this pandemic. 

There will be a time, with a vaccinated population and isolated non-vaccination, that the virus will die off. When there are no cases, let them participate again. 

Don't! We demand sources from both sides of the debate. I trust Tracker but I still want the source. 

Lol, I had written that out based on how hypocritcal it was to trust one mans word but not the other. I realized ive got a losing battle here so I let it go.

So what happens if omicron is not covered by our vaccine? What steps do we take then?

Start back at square one?

[MOBomberFan]

3 minutes ago, CodyT said:

 

Nobody here is saying that? We havent even discussed the vaccine passports. 

I was responding to Tiny on where I think we can go from here. Vaccine passports are part of that.

[blue_gold_84]

2 minutes ago, CodyT said:

So what happens if omicron is not covered by our vaccine? What steps do we take then?

Start back at square one?

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/biontech-pfizer-say-test-shows-3-doses-vaccine-neutralise-omicron-2021-12-08/

Quote

Dec 8 (Reuters) - BioNTech and Pfizer (PFE.N) said on Wednesday a three-shot course of their COVID-19 vaccine was able to neutralise the new Omicron variant in a laboratory test and they could deliver an upgraded vaccine in March 2022 if needed.

The German and U.S. companies said two doses of their vaccine resulted in significantly lower neutralising antibodies but a third dose boosted those antibodies by a factor of 25.

"The first line of defence, with two doses of vaccination, might be compromised and three doses of vaccination are required to restore protection," BioNTech Chief Medical Officer Ozlem Tuereci said at a press conference. The companies suggested that two doses may still protect against severe disease.

BioNTech and Pfizer are the first manufacturers of a COVID vaccine to issue an official update on the efficacy of their shot against Omicron.

Looks like there's reason to be somewhat optimistic.

Starting back at square one doesn't seem like a possibility considering how many are already vaccinated.

1 minute ago, MOBomberFan said:

I was responding to Tiny on where I think we can go from here. Vaccine passports are part of that.

Proof of vaccination/immunology are similar documents that have been in use for decades the world over.

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, CodyT said:

Lol, I had written that out based on how hypocritcal it was to trust one mans word but not the other. I realized ive got a losing battle here so I let it go.

So what happens if omicron is not covered by our vaccine? What steps do we take then?

Start back at square one?

Early evidence suggests it is but the research continues. Pfizer is working on a variation of their vaccine that will work against Omicron. They expect it to be ready in March. 

Also, it seems that boosters work against Omicron. 

This is another excellent argument for vaccines because the longer Covid spreads, the more chances that there will be mutations, like Omicron. 

[MOBomberFan]

4 minutes ago, CodyT said:

So what happens if omicron is not covered by our vaccine? What steps do we take then?

Start back at square one?

Now again I'm not an epidemiologist but from what I understand, as the strains get more infectious (Omicron) they become less lethal. Meaning to say that the more it mutates the more it 'dilutes' it's own lethality. This is a virus, it wants to live and spread in us, not kill us. So if our current vaccines are only effective against previous strains, it stands to reason the strains it may not effective against will be less lethal. So no, I don't think we'll have to go to square one if Omicron or later strains start to break out in vaccinated areas. Time will tell.

[Mark H.]

I don't know much about Omicron, but I was quite happy to have some protection from Delta. 

[CodyT]

Turns out, with some simple dialogue you can sway the opinions of others! Imagine.

Ww2 started in 39 right?

[MOBomberFan]

Just now, CodyT said:

Turns out, with some simple dialogue you can sway the opinions of others! Imagine.

Ww2 started in 39 right?

Yes indeed lol. I think he knew Pearl Harbor happened in 41 so he thought that must be when the war started. This was a coworker of mine... we gave eachother wide berth and only talked about music or the weather the rest of the season, much easier that way.

[Super Duper Negatron]

19 minutes ago, CodyT said:

Turns out, with some simple dialogue you can sway the opinions of others! Imagine.

Ww2 started in 39 right?

I can't tell if you are actually asking these questions or simply playing devils' advocate. Either way, unfortunately there is a much too large segment of the population for which your statement is untrue. They won't/can't be swayed because they seek out only information that confirms their existing opinion, and either ignore or attack the rest.

I, like a lot of people when this was all relatively new, thought that this whole thing was overblown and snickered at those early mask adopters. That was largely based on assuming CNN and others were hopping on the crisis bandwagon like they always seem to do. When the facts and the science came out, I rapidly changed my mind along with most of the population. Those that haven't, after all of this time, and all of the overwhelming evidence, are a lost cause.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Super Duper Negatron