Vaccine Debate

[Mark H.]

15 minutes ago, CodyT said:

Turns out, with some simple dialogue you can sway the opinions of others! Imagine.

Ww2 started in 39 right?

For England, it started on Sept. 3, 1939. 

 For Canada, Sept. 10, 1939

For the United States, Dec. 7, 1941

[CodyT]

Just now, Super Duper Negatron said:

I can't tell if you are actually asking these questions or simply playing devils' advocate. Either way, unfortunately there is a much too large segment of the population for which your statement is untrue. They won't/can't be swayed because they seek out only information that confirms their existing opinion, and either ignore or attack the rest.

No, I really did and do believe that the doctor had some merit and was speaking out in what he believes to be the right thing to do. Not with malicious or an evil agenda, not to tell people they are going to have a microchip planted in them.

That being said; what I have taken out of this thread is that although his intentions and qualifications are there, that doesnt make him right.

A reasonable person will welcome dialogue to mold their point of view. Weigh the information theyve gotten from both sides and make a choice.

It is my belief that the vaccination is the BEST choice, although not ideal.

Thanks to all for the information provided

[JCon]

We could stop keeping animals as pets and stop eating them. That would solve a lot of these issues. 

 

Debate.

[Mark H.]

5 minutes ago, CodyT said:

A reasonable person will welcome dialogue to mold their point of view. Weigh the information theyve gotten from both sides and make a choice.

It is my belief that the vaccination is the BEST choice, although not ideal.

Thanks to all for the information provided

Too many are being brainwashed into making the wrong choice. 

[CodyT]

8 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Too many are being brainwashed into making the wrong choice. 

Definitely. But that would be on a grand scale. When you have the right wing mob and trumpers forcing these anti vax thoughts down your throat, that's the result you get.

One of the many problems with that is that thoughts with merit are drowned out in the wash because of these yahoos. The video I had posted here is good for a healthy discussion because it is evident the man is speaking from a place of worry and compassion. Some of what he says holds ground.

We cant have that conversation because you have morons saying that this is nazi germany and it takes away any credibility from those actually trying to have an honest facts based discussion.

Luckily I did have this conversation, because the main point I took out of his video was that he was skeptical of a mandate on kids being vaccinated. Tracker had said that their is no evidence to support his theory. But that is a conversation I think is worthy of more dialogue

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by CodyT

[WildPath]

1 hour ago, MOBomberFan said:

Now again I'm not an epidemiologist but from what I understand, as the strains get more infectious (Omicron) they become less lethal. Meaning to say that the more it mutates the more it 'dilutes' it's own lethality. This is a virus, it wants to live and spread in us, not kill us. So if our current vaccines are only effective against previous strains, it stands to reason the strains it may not effective against will be less lethal. So no, I don't think we'll have to go to square one if Omicron or later strains start to break out in vaccinated areas. Time will tell.

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is correct - legitimately interested if you have a source that confirms your belief. I think generally something can mutate to be both more lethal AND more infectious. I believe the mechanism is that increased lethality will harm the spread (if it kills people quickly, it is hard to spread much). I think Covid has been especially problematic because of asymptomatic spread and pre-symptomatic spread.

I have requested the book The Premonition from Michael Lewis from the library in hopes of learning more about Covid and hopefully epidemics and responses in general.

16 minutes ago, CodyT said:

No, I really did and do believe that the doctor had some merit and was speaking out in what he believes to be the right thing to do. Not with malicious or an evil agenda, not to tell people they are going to have a microchip planted in them.

That being said; what I have taken out of this thread is that although his intentions and qualifications are there, that doesnt make him right.

A reasonable person will welcome dialogue to mold their point of view. Weigh the information theyve gotten from both sides and make a choice.

It is my belief that the vaccination is the BEST choice, although not ideal.

Thanks to all for the information provided

Appreciate that you could have an open mind and be willing to learn from others. Unfortunately, I don't believe this is the case with most of those who are not vaccinated at this point in time. I think most are firmly in the camp that they won't ever get a Covid vaccine. Some may still be swayed by conversation and good sources, but I don't think many will. Rough guess is that an equal number would be swayed by having vaccine mandates.

Our government has put a lot of resources into provide vaccine information and reducing hesistancy to little effect. A common response is "the vaccine must be very dangerous if the government needs to spend money/bribe people to get vaccinated". The information is there from multiple credible sources if unvaccinated people truly want to be informed or have a good faith discussion. Now is the time to protect those who cannot be vaccinated, those who are at risk even though vaccinated, allowing a sense of normalcy to return to people's lives and for the economy and business owners to have some stability. The way forward is reducing the amount of harm that unvaccinated people can do through vaccine mandates.

[CodyT]

4 minutes ago, WildPath said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is correct - legitimately interested if you have a source that confirms your belief. I think generally something can mutate to be both more lethal AND more infectious. I believe the mechanism is that increased lethality will harm the spread (if it kills people quickly, it is hard to spread much). I think Covid has been especially problematic because of asymptomatic spread and pre-symptomatic spread.

I have requested the book The Premonition from Michael Lewis from the library in hopes of learning more about Covid and hopefully epidemics and responses in general.

Appreciate that you could have an open mind and be willing to learn from others. Unfortunately, I don't believe this is the case with most of those who are not vaccinated at this point in time. I think most are firmly in the camp that they won't ever get a Covid vaccine. Some may still be swayed by conversation and good sources, but I don't think many will. Rough guess is that an equal number would be swayed by having vaccine mandates.

Our government has put a lot of resources into provide vaccine information and reducing hesistancy to little effect. A common response is "the vaccine must be very dangerous if the government needs to spend money/bribe people to get vaccinated". The information is there from multiple credible sources if unvaccinated people truly want to be informed or have a good faith discussion. Now is the time to protect those who cannot be vaccinated, those who are at risk even though vaccinated, allowing a sense of normalcy to return to people's lives and for the economy and business owners to have some stability. The way forward is reducing the amount of harm that unvaccinated people can do through vaccine mandates.

100% youre right. There are many that cant be swayed and that is just ignorance. Those are the same people that cannot be swayed on anything and are SO self indulged that there is no point having dialogue with them

However, I believe there is still a good number of reasonable people sitting on the fence who would be worth speaking too.

When we see people getting called down and **** on because of their beliefs, or the misinformation theyve been given we only create more animosity. 

I understand people are fed up and tired of trying to turn these people. But like we believe we need to get the vaccine for the good of society, we need to take the same approach with those lingering no matter how pain staking it may be.

It goes along way when people feel like you actually hear their concerns

[WildPath]

1 minute ago, CodyT said:

However, I believe there is still a good number of reasonable people sitting on the fence who would be worth speaking too.

I hope you are right, but I don't think you are. I'm not sure how "reasonable people" can come to the conclusion that it is better to be unvaccinated than vaccinated from the data that is out there from credible sources. Just looking at the data from Manitoba, the numbers of hospital admissions/ICU patients from vaccinated/unvaccinated populations. Also comparing the rates of Covid cases in Winnipeg and Southern health regions... If you took the word *reasonable* out of the statement, I might be more inclined to agree.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

100%, no. But, 100% of those eligible, yes. I think that should be the goal. There are people with REAL health issues that cannot get the vaccine, so that means those of us that can get vaccinated should to help protect those that can't.  

People are choosing to be self-isolated. They are choosing to not participate in society. That's the choice they are making. I see more problems with giving them leeway to protect their "feelings" and perpetually continuing this pandemic. 

There will be a time, with a vaccinated population and isolated non-vaccination, that the virus will die off. When there are no cases, let them participate again. 

Don't! We demand sources from both sides of the debate. I trust Tracker but I still want the source. 

The real risk of heart inflammation to kids is from COVID-19—not the vaccine (nationalgeographic.com)

Covid-19 and Children: How Often Do Vaccines Cause Heart Problems? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Edited December 8, 2021 by Tracker

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

If wishes and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

This is my whole point that there ARE people out there who are not getting vaccinated.  So how do you expect to get them out there to get vaccinated if the topic is not worth being discussed.

If we all just want to call them names and tell them why they are horrible people, nothing will change.

So do you care about getting people vaccinated or do you care about being righteous and telling people how horrible they are.

Nope, from what I've seen here, I think most people (not all) do indeed want to ensure we get it right and not want to be self-righteous by belittling others when it comes to getting this pandemic under control.

I'm thinking most of us didn't want to inject foreign substances into our bodies if we didn't need to.

But Science is getting it right.

What indicators would tell one no amount of convincing is working, no amount of tailoring one's approach to help the other person understand using the strongest evidence available is working to change their mind? Once that's been determined that we've hit that threshold that no amount of respectful convincing will help, what do you do with that person? Keep doing the same things?

I really liked how Lester Holt put it using the Sun as an example:

 “The idea that we should always give two sides equal weight and merit does not reflect the world we find ourselves in. That the sun sets in the west is a fact. Any contrary view does not deserve our time or attention.” 

If people and their livelihoods are being hurt by the 'argument' that the Sun sets in the East or are just skeptical about the Sun sets in the West , how much time should we be using to convince people that the sun sets in the west if we've exhausted every possible respectful way in trying to do that? Because at some point, as you ironically wrote, nothing is going to change if we give our time and our attention to people either arguing against fact or people who say we should respectfully give people a platform who argue against fact. The longer this 'hear from all sides' approach, i.e., alternative arguments to the analogy Sun sets in the West lingers on, specifically when it comes to getting this pandemic under control  we're going to pay heavily and not in a good way but yea lets make sure we don't offend anyone who respects an argument that the Sun sets in the East.

Tolerance levels are being heavily tested by those who still believe in giving, as Adam Grant would say, serious consideration to the strongest evidence available even when it contradicts our hopes, beliefs and biases.

[Yourface]

4 hours ago, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

I have worked in acute healthcare for 30 years. My wife has been a respiratory therapist for the same amount of time. My daughter has just begun her healthcare career in the medical ICU. 

Tell me more about how being unvaccinated affects only the individual, when people are dying from the lack of surgical intervention because medical options are closed due to lack of resources. 

Some food for thought:

https://www.cihi.ca/en/covid-19-resources/impact-of-covid-19-on-canadas-health-care-systems/covid-19s-effect-on-hospital

If you click on the xlsx file referenced in the above article, you will notice that there was a sometimes signifiant decrease in hospital activity across the board from March to November 2020 compared to 2019 (December was about the same). That includes overall admissions, ICU admissions, ventilator use, etc. I’d be curious to see how the 2019 numbers compare with early 2021 but I cannot find those numbers.

The following report from 2014 (a more recent study would be welcomed) shows that Canadian ICUs in urban areas spend 45 to 51 days per year above capacity on average.
https://secure.cihi.ca/free_products/ICU_Report_EN.pdf

That being said, I certainly feel for health care workers in this difficult time (there are a few in my family), but I think that the increase in workload and stress levels have more to do with the change in protocols (having to separate COVID patients and non-COVID patients, having to sanitize/change equipment more often, more administrative work) and staffing levels (senior health care workers retiring early, more people calling in sick due to any little symptom, as they are asked to do) than anything else.

There has been a shortage of nurses for as long as I can remember, and unfortunately these factors have only exacerbated the situation.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Yourface

[Bigblue204]

Delete
 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Bigblue204

[MOBomberFan]

53 minutes ago, WildPath said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is correct - legitimately interested if you have a source that confirms your belief.

We all could be wrong haha. No I'm sorry, I don't have a source, I'm simply applying what I do know about viruses (albeit plant viruses)

[Mark H.]

A family friend is the lead physician at Teulon Hospital. They have room for 13 patients - there are 20 people hospitalized there - right now.

[Bigblue204]

2 hours ago, blue_gold_84 said:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-did-we-develop-a-covid-19-vaccine-so-quickly

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

There's pretty much all you need to know on how the world was able to fast track this vaccine. It's almost as if humans can accomplish greatness when we work together for a common goal.

This pandemic has shown that we are even more removed from the World wars than I thought. The amount of team work/buy in/giving up ones own freedom all for one cause, that took place during those times is so much greater than what we have now. People have no concept of how it could be possible to do something quickly and on a mass scale.

I got into a debate around retro fitting ventilation systems to make them more effective against Covid and my buddy was convinced it was FAR too large a job to do and there would be no way to get everyone on board. I gave up trying to convince him that it is possible. 

[blue_gold_84]

https://thenib.com/vaccines-work-here-are-the-facts-5de3d0f9ffd0/

This is damn near perfect in explaining the science and effectiveness of vaccines - in the most simple of terms.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

2 hours ago, CodyT said:

Turns out, with some simple dialogue you can sway the opinions of others! Imagine.

Ww2 started in 39 right?

2 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

Yes indeed lol. I think he knew Pearl Harbor happened in 41 so he thought that must be when the war started. This was a coworker of mine... we gave eachother wide berth and only talked about music or the weather the rest of the season, much easier that way.

Americans were lazy in joining WW1 and WW2. Millions died waiting for them to join.

 

[Noeller]

11 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Americans were lazy in joining WW1 and WW2. Millions died waiting for them to join.

 

I had a history teacher in HS who used to get so animated about how the Americans refused to get involved in WW2 until they were impacted by Pearl Harbour. Then the Americans got pissed off at us for not wanting to join in on their faux "War On Terror". I just roll my eyes at them. The Canadians and the Brits were at the heart of WW2.

[HardCoreBlue]

 

2 hours ago, CodyT said:

100% youre right. There are many that cant be swayed and that is just ignorance. Those are the same people that cannot be swayed on anything and are SO self indulged that there is no point having dialogue with them

However, I believe there is still a good number of reasonable people sitting on the fence who would be worth speaking too.

When we see people getting called down and **** on because of their beliefs, or the misinformation theyve been given we only create more animosity. 

I understand people are fed up and tired of trying to turn these people. But like we believe we need to get the vaccine for the good of society, we need to take the same approach with those lingering no matter how pain staking it may be.

It goes along way when people feel like you actually hear their concerns

I hear what you're saying and for the many significant issues we continue to face in this world this is a great approach and reasonable people will continue to advocate for it.

However specifically when it comes this global pandemic and the death and destruction left in it's wake, I struggle with this statement, specifically around your use of the word reasonable.

Maybe 5 to 18 months ago while the science community and public heath experts tried (and still are learning more) to figure out how best to deal with the pandemic absolutely.

But now?

Reasonable people still need convincing in how to help themselves and others (e.g., vaccines, hand washing, mask wearing etc) to thwart off the impacts of this pandemic? At what point when there is loads of hard evidence available do you drop the word reasonable to describe people who still resist and/or advocate for giving people a platform to suggest the world is flat and/or the Sun sets in the East etc etc?

Edited December 8, 2021 by HardCoreBlue

[Rich]

2 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

 

I hear what you're saying and for the many significant issues we continue to face in this world this is a great approach and reasonable people will continue to advocate for it.

However specifically when it comes this global pandemic and the death and destruction left in it's wake, I struggle with this statement, specifically around your use of the word reasonable.

Maybe 5 to 18 months ago while the science community and public heath experts tried (and still are learning more) to figure out how best to deal with the pandemic absolutely.

But now?

Reasonable people still need convincing in how to help themselves and others (e.g., vaccines, hand washing, mask wearing etc) to thwart off the impacts of this pandemic? At what point when there is loads of hard evidence available do you drop the word reasonable to describe people who still resist and/or advocate for giving people a platform to suggest the world is flat and/or the Sun sets in the East etc etc?

What is the alternative?  

What is it going to accomplish to ostracize and denigrate those that refuse?

It is never too late.   People can always change their mind, and for everyone's sake, every effort to do so needs to be made.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8245020/former-manitoba-anti-vaxxer-credits-family-with-changing-his-mind-they-did-it-with-love/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/05/03/vaccine-hesitant-americans-change-minds-debeaumont-foundation/

[Mark H.]

31 minutes ago, Rich said:

What is the alternative?  

What is it going to accomplish to ostracize and denigrate those that refuse?

It is never too late.   People can always change their mind, and for everyone's sake, every effort to do so needs to be made.

The most important alternative is to continue fighting propaganda

Those that refuse to listen are often victims of misinformation, disinformation and most of all, confirmation bias

It's a deep, deep rabbit hole, and it must be quite profitable for the tech / social media giants, or they'd be doing more about it.

It takes time, but you have research the info that is constantly being forwarded, and prove it false.

And some, well, some don't change their minds until it really is too late

 

 

[MOBomberFan]

Who's being hostile to who? The Zoo said they needed proof of vax and they are still getting it from these... "people" on twitter right now. Comparing them to nazis, telling them they will 'suffer the consequences', accusing them of hurting children with their actions... a lot of self described freedom fighters and truth seekers being publicly nasty to a not-for-profit's social media account. How do I reach out to these people without coming across as condescending or hostile? Are they even listening to anyone that doesn't immediately agree that this is discrimination or fascism?

[Mark H.]

You have to work on the fence sitters.

I mean, I have had someone plead with me to say nothing further to them about vaccinations

Request granted - I won't. 

[Tracker]

3 hours ago, Mark H. said:

A family friend is the lead physician at Teulon Hospital. They have room for 13 patients - there are 20 people hospitalized there - right now.

But but but...our minister of health has assured us yesterday that the system is doing just fine and can be scaled up at any time if necessary. Would she lie to us? Impossible!

[Mark H.]

1 minute ago, Tracker said:

But but but...our minister of health has assured us yesterday that the system is doing just fine and can be scaled up at any time if necessary. Would she lie to us? Impossible!

I'll have to take a look - maybe she sent an igloo building crew to Teulon.