Vaccine Debate

[Tracker]

Just now, Mark H. said:

You have to work on the fence sitters.

I mean, I have had someone plead with me to say nothing further to them about vaccinations

Request granted - I won't. 

We have had two years of continuous messages about the severity of the pandemic and the necessity of ALL of us getting vaccinated to protect not only ourselves and our loved ones, but also to protect members of our communities who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate reasons.  Apart from a few utterly bizarre people, there is no debate. Those who have chosen to ignore hard science and history are so rigid in their ideation, that literally nothing will change them.

[the watcher]

15 hours ago, CodyT said:

Im vaxxed... I dont find it selfish for people to not have complete faith in an experiment. Cant believe how many  "yes sir, whatever you say sir" people there are.

I understand peoples hesitancy to getting the vax. The situation depends on the person. 

What experiment ? This technology is over 10 years old. The testing done on these vaccines was extremely thorough.  More so than many other vaccines. The reason it was so quick was because drug companies with the aid of governments threw ALL their research,  money , effort and energy at it.  And the proof is right here, 5.6 billion jabs last time I checked and very , very few side effects. And that is as massive a test as could exist. It's damn near miraculous. What is experimental is goofy internet cures like hydroxy chloroquine and Ivermectine to fight something they weren't designed for . 

As far as finding A doctor who doesn't support vaccines ,of course you can. There is something like 10 million Doctors in the world. There is a Doctor who told a Senate committee in the US that vaccines were making people magnetic. Every barrel of apples has a few that are going off.

Edit : One more add. Masking and vaccines aren't just about me.They also are about me not spreading Covid to others. If we all get vaccinated and take what precautions we can it gives vulnerable people a better chance to avoid it. It also allows our society to return to something more akin to normal.

Edited December 9, 2021 by the watcher

[Mark H.]

36 minutes ago, Tracker said:

We have had two years of continuous messages about the severity of the pandemic and the necessity of ALL of us getting vaccinated to protect not only ourselves and our loved ones, but also to protect members of our communities who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate reasons.  Apart from a few utterly bizarre people, there is no debate. Those who have chosen to ignore hard science and history are so rigid in their ideation, that literally nothing will change them.

There is such a thing as being an unaware or uneducated victim.  Government messaging was often inconsistent. 

[Tracker]

8 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

There is such a thing as being an unaware or uneducated victim.  Government messaging was often inconsistent. 

Any inconsistency was the result of a rapidly evolving scenario but at no point did they say that the vaccination was unnecessary.

[17to85]

One of the most bizarre things I see is people making a connection that vaccines aren't effective because we need boosters... like seriously? We get multiple doses of pretty much every vaccine! My kids get like 3 rounds of shots by the time they're a year old! 

There are a lot of people out there that say things that "seem to make sense" problem is that it doesn't actually make sense scientifically. Trust the vast majority of experts on this stuff not the crackpots. Vaccines work and they work damned well. Yes variants might mean we need annual boosters not unlike a flu shot... but covid vaccines are many times more effective than  flu shots and it is such a nothing needle I don't know why people are so opposed to them.

[WildPath]

1 hour ago, MOBomberFan said:

Who's being hostile to who? The Zoo said they needed proof of vax and they are still getting it from these... "people" on twitter right now. Comparing them to nazis, telling them they will 'suffer the consequences', accusing them of hurting children with their actions... a lot of self described freedom fighters and truth seekers being publicly nasty to a not-for-profit's social media account. How do I reach out to these people without coming across as condescending or hostile? Are they even listening to anyone that doesn't immediately agree that this is discrimination or fascism?

Again a guess - I think what has been happening is whenever there is a vax mandate or discussion that comes into play, the anti-vax groups spread it around and get others to express outrage and comment on the internet. If you look at the locations people are posting from (in general, not from the Zoo), it is often people that are not even close to the region. Just a bunch of people trying to make it seem like the majority is against vax mandates.

Just as we see massive Rider support attacking any online polls, the same thing happens with anti-vaxxers. Fortunately it is actually an exceptionally vocal minority that tries to bolster their cause by recruiting others to flood the polls.

 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

EDIT

No one needs to hear my tirade. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by wanna-b-fanboy

[Yourface]

6 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

Who's being hostile to who? The Zoo said they needed proof of vax and they are still getting it from these... "people" on twitter right now. Comparing them to nazis, telling them they will 'suffer the consequences', accusing them of hurting children with their actions... a lot of self described freedom fighters and truth seekers being publicly nasty to a not-for-profit's social media account. How do I reach out to these people without coming across as condescending or hostile? Are they even listening to anyone that doesn't immediately agree that this is discrimination or fascism?

If people have a problem they should focus their attention on the government. Why attack a business that has no choice but to obey public health orders?

People have become so hostile to one another, on both sides, and it is so disheartening. The world would be a much better place if we learned to understand each other’s differences and have respectful dialogue.

[17to85]

50 minutes ago, Yourface said:

if we learned to understand each other’s differences and have respectful dialogue.

How do you have respectful dialogue when people reject facts in favour of feelings?

[Yourface]

59 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

How do you have respectful dialogue when people reject facts in favour of feelings?

Facts can be found in support of any argument, in my opinion. Those that we gravitate to and choose to disseminate generally validate our own biases and feelings. I’m certainly guilty of that myself, despite my best efforts.

As long as people believe they are doing the right thing for themselves and the people around them, I think they deserve a respectful dialogue. Anything else will not do any good.

[SpeedFlex27]

19 hours ago, Tiny759 said:

Every choice we make for ourselves is selfish. Every one here is selfish. But once again, he knew the choice. I’m sure the team knew. I find it funny how we get on our moral high horses when we do something and someone doesn’t.

Still haven’t told me what my side is. I know you want it to be the anti vax side. I think you misunderstood the original point of my first reply to you. If you want someone to get the the vax, talking down on someone isn’t gonna change their mind. Acting like you are morally superior doesn’t change minds

So, when I wear a mask & get properly vaxxed, I'm somehow selfish because I made that decision? Do tell. Please explain how that's selfish when I'm looking out for you & others? You brought up sides, not me. What's my side? 

Edited December 9, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

9 hours ago, Mark H. said:

There is such a thing as being an unaware or uneducated victim.  Government messaging was often inconsistent. 

I do think one would have had to live in a cave the past 20 months to be uneducated. The problem is that people seem to believe in conspiracy theories & that Big Government, Big Pharma, Big Oil, the Military Industrial Complex... Big ANYTHING is out to get them. There's enough dummies out there that are easily swayed which is unfortunate. No surprise when there are people out there that still believe the Earth is flat. 

[blue_gold_84]

9 hours ago, Yourface said:

If people have a problem they should focus their attention on the government. Why attack a business that has no choice but to obey public health orders?

People have become so hostile to one another, on both sides, and it is so disheartening. The world would be a much better place if we learned to understand each other’s differences and have respectful dialogue.

Anti-vaxxers are attacking both businesses and government. The public health orders are being labelled as "authoritarian, tyrannical, fascist" by these uneducated, overly entitled narcissists who only care about themselves. 

The "both sides" argument is such flimsy, ridiculous, and fallacious argument (look up the the paradox of tolerance - https://academy4sc.org/video/paradox-of-tolerance-to-tolerate-or-not-to-tolerate/).

Quote

Philosopher Karl Popper described the paradox of tolerance as the seemingly counterintuitive idea that “in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.” Essentially, if a so-called tolerant society permits the existence of intolerant philosophies, it is no longer tolerant.

There aren't two sides to this pandemic, anyway. There are those who understand science and act on it, and there are those who are simply ignorant and wrong. The latter should not be tolerated. Full stop.

People who have done their due diligence and their part for the good of all are tired of those who have exacerbated this crisis with their denial, deflection, and sometimes antisocial behaviour, perpetuating the hardship for everyone. They can't even see past their own noses. So, how do you reason with people like that?

And attempting to understand a person who chooses not to get vaccinated with the "medical freedom" or "my body, my choice" narrative is a futile endeavour, as there is no rational, objective, or scientific justification for either. They're often the same ones who claim, albeit erroneously, that rights and freedoms are being taken away or trampled on, but there's no evidence for that, either.

6 hours ago, Yourface said:

Facts can be found in support of any argument, in my opinion. Those that we gravitate to and choose to disseminate generally validate our own biases and feelings. I’m certainly guilty of that myself, despite my best efforts.

As long as people believe they are doing the right thing for themselves and the people around them, I think they deserve a respectful dialogue. Anything else will not do any good.

"The sky is green."
"The Earth is the centre of the solar system."
"Vaccines cause autism."
"The pandemic is a hoax."
"Bill Gates murders children."
"Justin Trudeau is a communist."
"5G causes health problems."
"The Holocaust didn't happen."
"The moon landings were fake."
"The Earth is flat."

Facts do not support any of those arguments. Not one. And those who choose to agree with such nonsensical claims without a shred of real, hard, verifiable evidence cause irreparable harm in doing so, especially when they have influence in society and can easily spread their ignorant messages on the internet and social media to others without accountability.

The world would be a much better place if people actually chose to be informed and educated, and put in the effort of understanding the world around them. Rather than fall prey to misinformation on Facebook or YouTube.

There is no respectful dialogue to be had with conspiracy theorists or the willfully misinformed. 

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan

Edited December 9, 2021 by blue_gold_84
link added

[Yourface]

52 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Anti-vaxxers are attacking both businesses and government. The public health orders are being labelled as "authoritarian, tyrannical, fascist" by these uneducated, overly entitled narcissists who only care about themselves. 

The "both sides" argument is such flimsy, ridiculous, and fallacious argument (look up the the paradox of tolerance). There aren't two sides to this pandemic, anyway. There are those who understand science and act on it, and there are those who are simply ignorant and wrong. Full stop.

People who have done their due diligence and their part for the good of all are tired of those who have exacerbated this crisis with their denial, deflection, and sometimes antisocial behaviour, perpetuating the hardship for everyone. They can't even see past their own noses. So, how do you reason with people like that?

And attempting to understand a person who chooses not to get vaccinated with the "medical freedom" or "my body, my choice" narratives is a futile endeavour, as there is no rational, objective, or scientific justification for either. They're often the same ones who claim, albeit erroneously, that rights and freedoms are being taken away or trampled on, but there's no evidence for that, either.

"The sky is green."
"The Earth is the centre of the solar system."
"Vaccines cause autism."
"The pandemic is a hoax."
"Bill Gates murders children."
"Justin Trudeau is a communist."
"5G causes health problems."
"The Holocaust didn't happen."
"The moon landings were fake."
"The Earth is flat."

Facts do not support any of those arguments. Not one. And those who choose to agree with such nonsensical claims without a shred of real, hard, verifiable evidence cause irreparable harm in doing so, especially when they have influence in society and can easily spread their ignorant messages on the internet and social media to others without accountability.

The world would be a much better place if people actually chose to be informed and educated, and put in the effort of understanding the world around them. Rather than fall prey to misinformation on Facebook or YouTube.

There is no respectful dialogue to be had with conspiracy theorists or the willfully misinformed. 

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out." - Carl Sagan

Well maybe it's just me, but I don't want to live in a world where we are frowned upon for criticizing the government. To label those who do so as "uneducated, overly entitled narcissists who only care about themselves" is wrong. In their minds they are fighting for our freedoms, and therefore are doing the right thing. Insults only serve to antagonize in this context.

You're right, my statement may have been too general. However in the context of the pandemic, there are plenty of statistics and expert opinions that support various viewpoints. Of course we won't all agree. It is silly to believe that we ever will.

There is antisocial behaviour on both sides. It is fine to believe what you believe and argue accordingly, but an open mind is healthy, and hostility is not the answer.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Yourface

[17to85]

This idea that there are facts supporting both sides is simply put incorrect. Oh sure you can find people saying what you want to hear, but that doesn't make what they are saying facts or even correct. A level of understanding is required to parse through what is legit and what isn't. Sadly a lot of people are incapable of doing so, which is when they should be listening to the experts who do have that ability. That doesn't happen though,  instead people go "well I saw this and it's what I want to believe so facts" 

 

It is a real problem in our society right now.

[blue_gold_84]

2 minutes ago, Yourface said:

Well maybe it's just me, but I don't want to live in a world where we are frowned upon for criticizing the government. To label those who do so as "uneducated, overly entitled narcissists who only care about themselves" is wrong. In their minds they are fighting for our freedoms, and therefore are doing the right thing. Insults only serve to antagonize in this context.

You're right, my statement may have been too general. However in the context of the pandemic, there are plenty of statistics and expert opinions that support various viewpoints. Of course we won't all agree. It is silly to believe that we ever will.

There is antisocial behaviour on both sides. It is fine to believe what you believe and argue accordingly, but an open mind is healthy, and hostility is not the answer.

Except nobody said any of that. Read it again.

Criticism of the government is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. However, that doesn't mean you can just mislabel public health orders as being "authoritarian, tyrannical, or fascist" or claim that any of those rights and freedoms have been stripped away without proof. Those sort of dangerously false claims by uneducated, misinformed individuals who can't see beyond themselves or their inflated entitlement are what antagonize the situation and make things worse for everyone. And it is wrong, as there is no evidence to substantiate any of it.

Running to the defense of delusional and sometimes hostile "freedom fighters" who protest in front of hospitals and harass others, berate store employees and other customers, and spread bullshit online, or claiming there are statistics and expert opinions to support viewpoints that have exacerbated this public health crisis is about as bad a look as clinging to that feeble "both sides" argument. "Of course won't all agree" comes across a lame copout and that type of indifference is not helpful. 

Not only do you ignore the majority of what you quoted, you completely misconstrue what was actually said and then argue it nonsensically. That's not conducive to having an open mind or in the spirit of healthy, rational discussion, despite your claiming that's what you're doing in this thread. 

You're basically trolling. But based on your activity history of seemingly contrarian fallacy posting, that's unsurprising.

[Yourface]

28 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Except nobody said any of that. Read it again.

Criticism of the government is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. However, that doesn't mean you can just mislabel public health orders as being "authoritarian, tyrannical, or fascist" or claim that any of those rights and freedoms have been stripped away without proof. Those sort of dangerously false claims by uneducated, misinformed individuals who can't see beyond themselves or their inflated entitlement are what antagonize the situation and make things worse for everyone. And it is wrong, as there is no evidence to substantiate any of it.

Running to the defense of delusional and sometimes hostile "freedom fighters" who protest in front of hospitals and harass others, berate store employees and other customers, and spread bullshit online, or claiming there are statistics and expert opinions to support viewpoints that have exacerbated this public health crisis is about as bad a look as clinging to that feeble "both sides" argument. "Of course won't all agree" comes across a lame copout and that type of indifference is not helpful. 

Not only do you ignore the majority of what you quoted, you completely misconstrue what was actually said and then argue it nonsensically. That's not conducive to having an open mind or in the spirit of healthy, rational discussion, despite your claiming that's what you're doing in this thread. 

You're basically trolling. But based on your activity history of seemingly contrarian fallacy posting, that's unsurprising.

I appreciate your opinion. My point is hostility from both sides should be condemned.

Anyway, I believe I have said everything I wanted to say on this topic. Not interested in exchanging insults. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Yourface

[Bigblue204]

10 hours ago, 17to85 said:

How do you have respectful dialogue when people reject facts in favour of feelings?

If your goal is to reach someone using logic on social media, you're already doomed for failure. It's not your job to convince total strangers online (who may very well be children/bots/foreign agents etc. 

These conversations are only appropriate in person or maybe over the phone. Anything else is a waste of time.

[MOBomberFan]

11 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

If your goal is to reach someone using logic on social media, you're already doomed for failure. It's not your job to convince total strangers online (who may very well be children/bots/foreign agents etc. 

These conversations are only appropriate in person or maybe over the phone. Anything else is a waste of time.

I look forward to the day the truth seekers and freedom fighters say "I think that's enough calling people nazis on twitter for today, maybe now I'll go sit down with a doctor or nurse and get another opinion" but I suspect the sun will actually set in the East first

[Bigblue204]

If you find yourself painting people with a broad brush, you're probably wrong. Nothing involving humans is black and white or wrong vs right...thats an idealistic way of looking at the world and a bit ignorant. 

Likewise if you don't believe that any conspiracy theories are true you're also ignoring facts and provable science. People have trust issues with Government, big oil, pharma etc for good reason. And to simply write those reasons off as hysterical thoughts from unscientific minds is asinine.

[17to85]

27 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

If you find yourself painting people with a broad brush, you're probably wrong. Nothing involving humans is black and white or wrong vs right...thats an idealistic way of looking at the world and a bit ignorant. 

Likewise if you don't believe that any conspiracy theories are true you're also ignoring facts and provable science. People have trust issues with Government, big oil, pharma etc for good reason. And to simply write those reasons off as hysterical thoughts from unscientific minds is asinine.

Ok, but a lot of those trust issues with government, big pharma, etc are the same broad brush thing you caution against. 

It's that same lack of critical thinking and lack of an ability to parse through multi-layered issues... in short it is about people not being smart enough to understand but pretending they are anyway. 

I have one co-worker who was unvaccinated (she may be vaxed now since nearly all of our clients are requiring it) and I can remember talking to her last February about vaccines. Now I should mention she's got an applied science degree so clearly smart enough for that... but the ignorance she was spouting was staggering and it was based mostly on crap information her dumbass bartender boyfriend told her. This is what happens. People don't think they just believe whatever they want to feel.

[blue_gold_84]

Klepper is a gem.

[JCon]

4 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Klepper is a gem.

Truly the stupidest people. 

[Bigblue204]

40 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Ok, but a lot of those trust issues with government, big pharma, etc are the same broad brush thing you caution against. 

It's that same lack of critical thinking and lack of an ability to parse through multi-layered issues... in short it is about people not being smart enough to understand but pretending they are anyway. 

I have one co-worker who was unvaccinated (she may be vaxed now since nearly all of our clients are requiring it) and I can remember talking to her last February about vaccines. Now I should mention she's got an applied science degree so clearly smart enough for that... but the ignorance she was spouting was staggering and it was based mostly on crap information her dumbass bartender boyfriend told her. This is what happens. People don't think they just believe whatever they want to feel.

Not quite. There are very real people who have had very real consequences dealing with the bolded. Trauma/health issues/death etc etc etc. I'm not saying everyone who mistrusts though agencies have a lived experience that would warrant it. But some do. Hence writing people off who hold those concerns is not a valid response in my opinion.

[Bigblue204]

6 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Klepper is a gem.

people who don't actually know what war is about always bring this up. And it's shocking the disconnect that's apparent. Choice vs no choice doesn't seem to connect with them. 

They also seem to forget that the one thing that helped bring them out of WWII was a massive collective effort from multiple countries and individuals gladly giving up their own freedoms even when faced with certain death, to help out those who didn't have a choice.

There also seems to be a lot of people who very much want to be seen as oppressed. And any inconvenience regardless of how trivial is now being used as a war cry!