2022 Off Season - Back 2 Back Champs Edition

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

 

This is a really interesting video about QB prospects. It's about NFL qbs, but a lot of what he's talking about directly relates to how it goes up here. And especially seems to line up with how the bombers pick prospect qbs. The TLDR of his process is that he considers Raw tools more important that mechanics, coachability over polish, and the right destination are whats important. 

 Basically the entire time we've had the mafia here our developmental QBs have all been extremely high potential under developed guys. Most not getting more than 1 or maybe 2 decent years at college. A lot of guys who transfer from a big program to a small one and find some success. Instead of the guys who throw for 10,000 yards, start for 4 years, and throw 90-100 tds we get guys who throw for maybe 4 or 5k with 1 big production year. 

No surprise that the FIFO mafia look for guys they can develop. Its hard to change a guy who has been a star qb for 6-8 years between HS and college. And by nature, cfl teams need to be able to mold players to fit our league. 

And having a guy whose skill set fits what we do is instrumental. We all saw Streveler languish in a system that never used his skill sets well. We never utilized his athleticism to set up other facets of our offense. Stuff you see the ravens do, like running qb power off a play action counter, or fake the draw, or use a jet motion option play etc. 

I think that speaks a lot to why Collaros was able to succeed and turn things around soo quickly here. It'll be interesting to see how Dakota develops here, and what kind of 4th guy we bring in for camp. 

The one thing not factored into this is the evolving nature of how qbs are now being trained. How fundamentals of a decade ago are now considered an anchor on most developing qbs. With this change in development, it also changes the way qbs are coached & the kind of throws now being made as opposed to when Peyton Manning broke into the league in 1997.  Throws that were once considered impossible to make are now being made by Rodgers, Herbert, Mahomes, Murray & others. The days of the pure pocket passer are coming to an end. Give it 5 more years & watch how the qb position blossoms. Not only in the NFL but also the CFL where older qbs with outdated mechanics age out & replaced by younger guys who throw totally different. 

6 minutes ago, Jesse said:

The NCAA has them at least that long, and often as long as 23/24.

And the majority don't make it. Then what? 

[Jesse]

5 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The one thing not factored into this is the evolving nature of how qbs are now being trained. How fundamentals of a decade ago are now considered an anchor on most developing qbs. With this change in development, it also changes the way qbs are coached & the kind of throws now being made as opposed to when Peyton Manning broke into the league in 1997.  Throws that were once considered impossible to make are now being made by Rodgers, Herbert, Mahomes, Murray & others. The days of the pure pocket passer are coming to an end. Give it 5 more years & watch how the qb position blossoms. Not only in the NFL but also the CFL where older qbs with outdated mechanics age out & replaced by younger guys who throw totally different. 

And the majority don't make it. Then what? 

Same thing that happens to guys who can't cut it in the AHL.

[Bigblue204]

17 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Well then, why does the NHL need the AHL? The junior leagues are developmental, right? Is it maybe because the game at the NHL level is faster with superior players than junior? That kids at 18-21 can't handle the pro game just like kids coming into the NFL?  Just askin' for a friend.

How old do you think players in the NCAA are? Likewise, how old do you think players being drafted into the NFL are?

You think it's relevant to compare two different sports?

[SpeedFlex27]

17 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Same thing that happens to guys who can't cut it in the AHL.

Well, they need to talk to Chris Jones. 

14 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

How old do you think players in the NCAA are? Likewise, how old do you think players being drafted into the NFL are?

You think it's relevant to compare two different sports?

Well, why not? 

[SpeedFlex27]

I hate merged threads as it really skews the discussion. Why do we have this feature anyway? 

[WBBFanWest]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Well then, why does the NHL need the AHL? The junior leagues are developmental, right? Is it maybe because the game at the NHL level is faster with superior players than junior? That kids at 18-21 can't handle the pro game just like kids coming into the NFL?  Just askin' for a friend.

why aren't apples oranges?

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

why aren't apples oranges?

They aren't a-peeling in the same way.

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, WBBFanWest said:

why aren't apples oranges?

Edited February 27, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[Noeller]

 

 

[Jesse]

21 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 

 

Quite excited.

[bearpants]

19 hours ago, Noeller said:

 

 

two hours eh... should be a great 20 minutes of content

[GCn20]

On 2022-02-26 at 4:03 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

Well, they need to talk to Chris Jones. 

Well, why not? 

NHL players are rarely physically ready when drafted, NCAA football players are. Pretty simple really.

[iHeart]

24 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

NHL players are rarely physically ready when drafted, NCAA football players are. Pretty simple really.

usually it's the first three players that are drafted that are ready to go when drafted 

[Jpan85]

 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, GCn20 said:

NHL players are rarely physically ready when drafted, NCAA football players are. Pretty simple really.

Sure, that's why 90% of NCAA players get cut. 

[17to85]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Sure, that's why 90% of NCAA players get cut. 

Wait are you seriously making the argument that guys drafted at 18 are no different than guys drafted at what? 22? Cause for most men there is a lot of physical growth between those ages.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Wait are you seriously making the argument that guys drafted at 18 are no different than guys drafted at what? 22? Cause for most men there is a lot of physical growth between those ages.

 

Yeah,  I admit that18 year olds hockey prospects aren't as physically developed but the argument that GCn20 makes that the NCAA is a developmental league is wrong as well.

The CFL & NFL games are faster than the NCAA, the players more experienced & the mental & physical part of the game is tougher. What do NCAA teams play? An 11 or 12 game schedule & then a Bowl game with a month off if they're on a good team. The CFL plays an 18 game schedule, then two playoffs (if they don't clinch 1st place in their division) & the GC. The NFL has 17 games, playoffs & SB. The 21 year olds from the NCAA have never faced the pressure or grind of the pro game. Some are ready. Most aren't. If they aren't then they have nowhere to go. They don't have their college teams to go back to or a pro developmental league. Game's over for them.

[17to85]

34 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Yeah,  I admit that18 year olds hockey prospects aren't as physically developed but the argument that GCn20 makes that the NCAA is a developmental league is wrong as well.

The CFL & NFL games are faster than the NCAA, the players more experienced & the mental & physical part of the game is tougher. What do NCAA teams play? An 11 or 12 game schedule & then a Bowl game with a month off if they're on a good team. The CFL plays an 18 game schedule, then two playoffs (if they don't clinch 1st place in their division) & the GC. The NFL has 17 games, playoffs & SB. The 21 year olds from the NCAA have never faced the pressure or grind of the pro game. Some are ready. Most aren't. If they aren't then they have nowhere to go. They don't have their college teams to go back to or a pro developmental league. Game's over for them.

but they're still more physically ready. I mean going back to the NHL comparison how many players realistically make the jump from draft to playing in the NHL? Fact is that the big leagues are hard to play in and it takes special talent levels to be able to do it. It's to be expected that most people won't achieve those heights. But older players coming out of college are more physically ready to play than those that are drafted at 18. 

[SpeedFlex27]

5 hours ago, 17to85 said:

but they're still more physically ready. I mean going back to the NHL comparison how many players realistically make the jump from draft to playing in the NHL? Fact is that the big leagues are hard to play in and it takes special talent levels to be able to do it. It's to be expected that most people won't achieve those heights. But older players coming out of college are more physically ready to play than those that are drafted at 18. 

Physically, yes. Absolutely there's a difference between an 18 year old hockey player coming out of junior & a 22 year old college football player. My problem is when someone calls the NCAA a developmental league when it's not.

When teams develop players it means they drafted them & have a plan for these young players. Teams want them to be come better at the position they play whether it be at qb or defensive lineman. Teams can't develop their own players if they're playing college football as they aren't part of a pro football organization. Teams hope but they don'tknow if a player can even play at the pro level or their team's system. The NCAA is its own entity using players to make massive amounts of $$$ for the schools they play for. They really don't have any interest in developing players for the NFL. Instead, it's all about colleges qualifying for Bowl games or winning the NCAA FBS National Championship. As well as the recruiting & financial rewards that come to these colleges, athletic directors & head coaches. 

The NHL & MLB have a development system in place whereas pro football does not. But in the NBA there are more players available in the pool of talent than football as rosters are much, much smaller. The NBA also does have a Summer League so players can go there for seasoning. Most NFL & CFL players once they're cut if no one picks them up on waivers or as free agents, it's time to get a real job. 

To say the NCAA is a developmental league is ludicrous as it's not. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[wbbfan]

13 hours ago, Jpan85 said:

 

Low key good pick up. Very versatile college guy who played wil s and dime. It's nice depth for camp. 

[GCn20]

8 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Physically, yes. Absolutely there's a difference between an 18 year old hockey player coming out of junior & a 22 year old college football player. My problem is when someone calls the NCAA a developmental league when it's not.

When teams develop players it means they drafted them & have a plan for these young players. Teams want them to be come better at the position they play whether it be at qb or defensive lineman. Teams can't develop their own players if they're playing college football as they aren't part of a pro football organization. Teams hope but they don'tknow if a player can even play at the pro level or their team's system. The NCAA is its own entity using players to make massive amounts of $$$ for the schools they play for. They really don't have any interest in developing players for the NFL. Instead, it's all about colleges qualifying for Bowl games or winning the NCAA FBS National Championship. As well as the recruiting & financial rewards that come to these colleges, athletic directors & head coaches. 

The NHL & MLB have a development system in place whereas pro football does not. But in the NBA there are more players available in the pool of talent than football as rosters are much, much smaller. The NBA also does have a Summer League so players can go there for seasoning. Most NFL & CFL players once they're cut if no one picks them up on waivers or as free agents, it's time to get a real job. 

To say the NCAA is a developmental league is ludicrous as it's not. 

Football has PRs for those that need pro seasoning....and I didn't call the NCAA a development league, Jerry Jones pres. of the NFL owners association did NUMEROUS times. Go argue with him about it. You are absolutely delusional trying to compare hockey, or basketball 17 and 18 year olds to 23-24 year old NCAA football athletes. First of all the obvious, hockey is a game of split second decisions played at blinding speed at high emotional levels where you must find a role, and then hone it to become a pro. Football is a game of preparation, discipline, and physical ability.  A non-pro ready football player is simply cut because if they don't have the attributes at 23 or 24 they are never going to have them. A non-pro ready hockey player can be developed because most of the time it's between the ears, or they simply need to wait for 20 lbs of adulthood. This idea of yours that after 4 years of NCAA has not prepared them for life in the pros is completely inaccurate. By your own admission, you have stated that NCAA operates like a pro league.

Edited March 1, 2022 by GCn20

[Bigblue204]

12 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Yeah,  I admit that18 year olds hockey prospects aren't as physically developed but the argument that GCn20 makes that the NCAA is a developmental league is wrong as well.

The CFL & NFL games are faster than the NCAA, the players more experienced & the mental & physical part of the game is tougher. What do NCAA teams play? An 11 or 12 game schedule & then a Bowl game with a month off if they're on a good team. The CFL plays an 18 game schedule, then two playoffs (if they don't clinch 1st place in their division) & the GC. The NFL has 17 games, playoffs & SB. The 21 year olds from the NCAA have never faced the pressure or grind of the pro game. Some are ready. Most aren't. If they aren't then they have nowhere to go. They don't have their college teams to go back to or a pro developmental league. Game's over for them.

You said the WHL was a developmental league for the NHL correct? The bolded part up above I agree with for the most part. But that does nothing to sway an argument that the NCAA is a developmental league for the NFL. Or are you suggesting the WHL is the same speed as the NHL? If not, then you have to admit that the speed of play being slower does not determine if something is or something is not a developmental league.

Most NCAA football players do not come to college ready to start. They take a year sometimes 3 to get to the level they need to be in order to start and be ready for a draft. Those 1-3 years they are developing into pro ready athletes.

[GCn20]

9 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

You said the WHL was a developmental league for the NHL correct? The bolded part up above I agree with for the most part. But that does nothing to sway an argument that the NCAA is a developmental league for the NFL. Or are you suggesting the WHL is the same speed as the NHL? If not, then you have to admit that the speed of play being slower does not determine if something is or something is not a developmental league.

Most NCAA football players do not come to college ready to start. They take a year sometimes 3 to get to the level they need to be in order to start and be ready for a draft. Those 1-3 years they are developing into pro ready athletes.

A Div 1 team spends more on player development in a year than any CFL/XFL/USFL team spends on their entire operations. These kids are polished gems or they will never be. Also, being pro ready in other sports is about playing time, in pro football it's about understanding expanded playbooks. Football is about having the skills to play your position, having the physical ability to do so, and demonstrating that you can do it with the Friday night lights on. At 22-23 you either can or you can't. I suppose if one wanted to make the argument that Canadian players could be coached up, I would agree a little more, as they have for the most part been subject to subpar competition and coaching compared to what is needed in the pros. However, that's not the discussion. I suppose if it didn't cost the NFL anything at all, they could probably find some guys with behavioral problems or high measurables/low football IQ and fill some rosters up to see if it works out but realistically they would not spend money on this.

Edited March 1, 2022 by GCn20

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Football has PRs for those that need pro seasoning....and I didn't call the NCAA a development league, Jerry Jones pres. of the NFL owners association did NUMEROUS times. Go argue with him about it. You are absolutely delusional trying to compare hockey, or basketball 17 and 18 year olds to 23-24 year old NCAA football athletes. First of all the obvious, hockey is a game of split second decisions played at blinding speed at high emotional levels where you must find a role, and then hone it to become a pro. Football is a game of preparation, discipline, and physical ability.  A non-pro ready football player is simply cut because if they don't have the attributes at 23 or 24 they are never going to have them. A non-pro ready hockey player can be developed because most of the time it's between the ears, or they simply need to wait for 20 lbs of adulthood. This idea of yours that after 4 years of NCAA has not prepared them for life in the pros is completely inaccurate. By your own admission, you have stated that NCAA operates like a pro league.

No, the NCAA doesn't operate like a pro league. The players don't get paid to play. The NCAA doesn't prepare them for life in the pros or even life itself. The pressures of the game at that level takes care of that. Players have to mature & grow up fast. There's not only pressure to perform & win but also pressure as a student-athlete. While other students are still sleeping in their dorms, players are hitting the gym lifting at 6 in the morning, followed by meetings early in the morning, then going to their classes,  more meetings in the afternoon & then practice from 4 until 6pm.

Players had to learn to manage their time appropriately during the season or they'd get swamped. Juggling school & playing football were both huge time committments. Some players really struggled. Some left the team as they were falling further & further behind. Luckily, my son was able to handle it all & graduated from SFU in May of 2015.

You'd be shocked at how little the HC cared about his players. Once my son's football season was over, he wanted nothing to do with him or the other seniors anymore. Their usefullness to him was finished. The HC refused to set up a Pro Day for his players even though Jacques Chapdelaine did the year before for his guys & Dave Johnson before that. The HC didn't talk any of them up with CFL or NFL teams. Michael Couture & Lemar Durant were part of that senior graduating class in 2015 along with my son & they went 0-10.

Should I say his name? Kelly Bates. If there ever was a guy so not ready, having none of the answers to all of the questions & in over his head it was Bates. He thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he wasn't. Bates didn't care about any of his players as he never recruited them so he was busy shuffling the Senior players out the door once football ended so he could bring in his own recruits such as they were. Players hated Bates too as he alienated them so they stopped playing for him. He went 0-29 at SFU before he was fired. Bates entire time as HC was a **** show. From everything I heard, he sucked the fun out of the sport for most of the players.

Anyway, this conversation is going in circles & I'm not interested in talking about it any further. You're welcome to think whatever you like. I really don't care.

Edited March 1, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No, the NCAA doesn't operate like a pro league. The players don't get paid to play. The NCAA doesn't prepare them for life in the pros or even life itself. The pressures of the game at that level takes care of that. Players have to mature & grow up fast. There's not only pressure to perform & win but also pressure as a student-athlete. While other students are still sleeping in their dorms, players are hitting the gym lifting at 6 in the morning, followed by meetings early in the morning, then going to their classes,  more meetings in the afternoon & then practice from 4 until 6pm.

Players had to learn to manage their time appropriately during the season or they'd get swamped. Juggling school & playing football were both huge time committments. Some players really struggled. Some left the team as they were falling further & further behind. Luckily, my son was able to handle it all & graduated from SFU in May of 2015.

You'd be shocked at how little the HC cared about his players. Once my son's football season was over, he wanted nothing to do with him or the other seniors anymore. Their usefullness to him was finished. The HC refused to set up a Pro Day for his players even though Jacques Chapdelaine did the year before for his guys & Dave Johnson before that. The HC didn't talk any of them up with CFL or NFL teams. Michael Couture & Lemar Durant were part of that senior graduating class in 2015 along with my son & they went 0-10.

Should I say his name? Kelly Bates. If there ever was a guy so not ready, having none of the answers to all of the questions & in over his head it was Bates. He thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he wasn't. Bates didn't care about any of his players as he never recruited them so he was busy shuffling the Senior players out the door once football ended so he could bring in his own recruits such as they were. Players hated Bates too as he alienated them so they stopped playing for him. He went 0-29 at SFU before he was fired. Bates entire time as HC was a **** show. From everything I heard, he sucked the fun out of the sport for most of the players.

Anyway, this conversation is going in circles & I'm not interested in talking about it any further. You're welcome to think whatever you like. I really don't care.

You are the one arguing about it. I'm sorry your son had a bad experience at SFU. It happens to all programs once in a while that they hire a dud. However, I did not state that ALL NCAA teams operate like the pros, I said Div 1 teams do. Massive drop off from Div 1 to Div 2,3 obviously. That's why it's rare air for Div 2 and 3 QBs in the pros. They simply are not the same calibre of QB as a Div 1 QB as a general rule. All the "farm team" time in the world isn't likely to make a difference in their chances of playing any meaningful snaps as a pro unless they are specialists like Streveler etc. With 130 Div 1 teams churning out QBs year nevermind Div2.3 it is simply a numbers game for the vast majority. NFL will almost always take the Div 1 guys, CFL will take what's left and the cream of the crop of Div 2 or 3 and the rest have to look at life after football because they simply weren't good enough to go pro. That's life. No one is going to spend millions of dollars trying to develop Div 2 or 3 QBs, why would they, there is a bumper crop of new Div1 ones every year.

Edited March 1, 2022 by GCn20