2022 Off Season - Back 2 Back Champs Edition

[wbbfan]

On 2022-04-15 at 3:35 PM, Booch said:

I like the looks of our recieving core more than last yr to be honest...especially with some of the guys we brought in new..Jackson being back and now Saunders...if he fully back to what he was..that's huge...and now with Grant...who I hope we mix in a bit more now in his 3rd yr here...we are looking good behind that online...and the 1-2 combo of BO and JA...easily will get us 1200 yards minimum combined in the ground game...Buck's second yr owning the offence too us gonna loom large too...I see us putting up league leading scoring numbers....and we know the defense will be top 1 or 2 in league giving up points ...3 peat totally in our grasp if we dont get nailed with multiple "key" injuries...I say key as we have great depth for most part...which was proven last yr...but we didn't lose vital guys for extended time...that of course will hurt any team...but we know we have the backups for the most part to carry us through...

Plus Un leashing woli with the hash change  then wr core will be the best its been in years 

[GCn20]

USFL attendance opening weekend. Liam Dobson will be here by the beginning of TC. Looks like less than a thousand people. They are claiming much higher attendance but the eyeball test is what I go by. There are almost as many players as fans.

15 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Plus Un leashing woli with the hash change  then wr core will be the best its been in years 

You guys are way overestimating the effect of the hashmark move.

Edited April 19, 2022 by GCn20

[TrueBlue4ever]

13 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

 You guys are way overestimating the effect of the hashmark move.

Or overestimating Wolitarsky. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[bb1]

7 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

USFL attendance opening weekend. Liam Dobson will be here by the beginning of TC. Looks like less than a thousand people. They are claiming much higher attendance but the eyeball test is what I go by. There are almost as many players as fans.

You guys are way overestimating the effect of the hashmark move.

Yeah watched about 5 min of the game just to see how many fans turned out. The stands were literally empty, with all the options American fans have with NFL,NCAA,high school  why do these crazy leagues even try??

[GCn20]

7 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Or overestimating Wolitarsky. 

I like Woli a lot but he's the 6th option in our offence no matter where we put the hashmarks. He's great at what he does and what we need him for but I don't understand the narrative that he is chronically under utilized in an offence that boasts 4 receivers that are better than him.

[SpeedFlex27]

4 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I like Woli a lot but he's the 6th option in our offence no matter where we put the hashmarks. He's great at what he does and what we need him for but I don't understand the narrative that he is chronically under utilized in an offence that boasts 4 receivers that are better than him.

 

4 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I like Woli a lot but he's the 6th option in our offence no matter where we put the hashmarks. He's great at what he does and what we need him for but I don't understand the narrative that he is chronically under utilized in an offence that boasts 4 receivers that are better than him.

Who was a better receiver, Joe Popawski, Jeff Boyd, Perry Tuttle  or James Murphy? I'd say that Joe Pop was probably the #4 receiver in that group. Probably the slowest & maybe even had the worst hands although that could be argued as he made many, many incredible clutch & sure handed grabs as did the others. And yet, Joe Pop reached a thousand yards receiving or was pretty damned close every year he played. It didn't matter if he was #1 or #4. he produced because he was given the chance, something Wolitarsky has not been allowed to do.

[GCn20]

39 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

 

Who was a better receiver, Joe Popawski, Jeff Boyd, Perry Tuttle  or James Murphy? I'd say that Joe Pop was probably the #4 receiver in that group. Probably the slowest & maybe even had the worst hands although that could be argued as he made many, many incredible clutch & sure handed grabs as did the others. And yet, Joe Pop reached a thousand yards receiving or was pretty damned close every year he played. It didn't matter if he was #1 or #4. he produced because he was given the chance, something Wolitarsky has not been allowed to do.

I would argue that Joe Poplawski was equally as good as any of them, and played slot, so you are kind of comparing apples and oranges. I would also argue that comparing Drew Wolitarsky with Joe Pop is a big time reach. He is not even close in calibre to Joe Pop. Gerald Wilcox also thrived when given a chance...Jamie Stoddard...not so much. The difference is talent level not where the hash marks are. I like Drew Wolitarsky, but if he is taking touches away from Bailey, Ellingson, Saunders, or Demski then something has gone wrong with our offence. He is a safety net with the odd ball thrown to him, and that is where he belongs in the pecking order. Our receivers are moved around inside and out, Drew get the opportunities he makes for himself and hashmarks don't change that.

Edited April 19, 2022 by GCn20

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, GCn20 said:

I would argue that Joe Poplawski was equally as good as any of them, and played slot, so you are kind of comparing apples and oranges. I would also argue that comparing Drew Wolitarsky with Joe Pop is a big time reach. He is not even close in calibre to Joe Pop.

I wasn't comparing Drew to Joe Pop. Where did I ever say that?  I was comparing where Joe sat in relation to the other 3 when they played just like Wolitarski does now. We don't know how good he actually is because he may only get one, two or 3 throws his way a game on average. The guy usually catches everything that comes his way, is fearless, tough & no one knows just how good he could be. I know there are fans like me who'd like to see him moved inside where he'd no doubt shine.

[WBBFanWest]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

USFL attendance opening weekend. Liam Dobson will be here by the beginning of TC. Looks like less than a thousand people. They are claiming much higher attendance but the eyeball test is what I go by. There are almost as many players as fans.

You guys are way overestimating the effect of the hashmark move.

Are you sure that's not a picture of an Argo home opener?

[Bigblue204]

43 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I would argue that Joe Poplawski was equally as good as any of them, and played slot, so you are kind of comparing apples and oranges. I would also argue that comparing Drew Wolitarsky with Joe Pop is a big time reach. He is not even close in calibre to Joe Pop. Gerald Wilcox also thrived when given a chance...Jamie Stoddard...not so much. The difference is talent level not where the hash marks are. I like Drew Wolitarsky, but if he is taking touches away from Bailey, Ellingson, Saunders, or Demski then something has gone wrong with our offence. He is a safety net with the odd ball thrown to him, and that is where he belongs in the pecking order. Our receivers are moved around inside and out, Drew get the opportunities he makes for himself and hashmarks don't change that.

This is an assumption that the Offence wouldn't be as productive. What if it were as or more productive?

And Joe playing the slot is kind of the point. Wolly doesn't have the speed to be real productive in the position that he's in. Move him inside where he can use his frame more and he's likely more productive....

[itchy]

On 2022-04-15 at 1:13 PM, Jesse said:

Hasn't he said he's not coming back under the global tag?

New CBA might change things to allow us to sign him at a raise, though.

I thought I read somewhere that Bombers had him signed to a contract, but the league voided it as it exceeded the global tag amount. I'll have to see if I can find that. In any case, it's an issue that should be addressed in the new CA.

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, itchy said:

I thought I read somewhere that Bombers had him signed to a contract, but the league voided it as it exceeded the global tag amount. I'll have to see if I can find that. In any case, it's an issue that should be addressed in the new CA.

Yes, I remember that too. Only way to sign him currently to a higher contract would require that he is no longer a global. 

[GCn20]

18 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

This is an assumption that the Offence wouldn't be as productive. What if it were as or more productive?

And Joe playing the slot is kind of the point. Wolly doesn't have the speed to be real productive in the position that he's in. Move him inside where he can use his frame more and he's likely more productive....

Sure he'd be more productive in the slot, but that wasn't the argument presented earlier at all. People were suggesting moving the hashmarks would make a big difference in his production and I argued it wouldn't make much of a difference because he is playing a position where touches are at a premium. 

58 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I wasn't comparing Drew to Joe Pop. Where did I ever say that?  I was comparing where Joe sat in relation to the other 3 when they played just like Wolitarski does now. We don't know how good he actually is because he may only get one, two or 3 throws his way a game on average. The guy usually catches everything that comes his way, is fearless, tough & no one knows just how good he could be. I know there are fans like me who'd like to see him moved inside where he'd no doubt shine.

You actually did directly compare him to Joe Pop and my comment, and the comments before them, had nothing to do with how he would fare in the slot. You are moving the goal posts. I stated that moving the hash marks won't get him many more touches. I stand by that. This is a slot league and when shots are taken outside the hashes they will rarely go his way because we have better options whether you like it or not.  Joe Pop got his touches because he was an outstanding receiver in his own right and was just as good as any other receiver on the roster. If you are suggesting that Wolitarsky is as good as Demski/Bailey/Ellingson than I have to wonder what you are basing that belief on.

Could we move him to the slot? Sure we could but who do you move out of the slot? Ellingson? Bailey? Demski? I wouldn't.

Edited April 19, 2022 by GCn20

[itchy]

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

Yes, I remember that too. Only way to sign him currently to a higher contract would require that he is no longer a global. 

Found it;

A little-known aspect of the league’s agreement for global players is a rule limiting them to a salary of $54,000 – $11,000 below the CFL minimum for all other players.

So becoming a free agent last month was basically meaningless for the 29-year-old Hansen.

“We’re not able to negotiate,” he said. “This is a hard situation for me. It’s fair maybe for one year to have us on a deal where we get maybe the league minimum. Because for teams it’s a shot in the dark. But after that, we should be able to. Especially if teams want to pay us more.”

The Bombers actually tried to sign Hansen to a deal with a bigger salary after his first season, 2019, but the league voided it.

Word is the CFL Players Association is working to get the rules changed in the new collective bargaining agreement. While Hansen appreciates the opportunity the league has given him,  he’s not sure how much longer he wants to put his body on the line for such low pay.

“I play all the special teams, I get snaps on defence,” he said. “So I’ve got to see, if they don’t change, if I really want to continue to do it.”

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/friesen-bombers-free-agent-hansen-makes-play-of-his-life

[Super Duper Negatron]

4 minutes ago, itchy said:

Found it;

A little-known aspect of the league’s agreement for global players is a rule limiting them to a salary of $54,000 – $11,000 below the CFL minimum for all other players.

So becoming a free agent last month was basically meaningless for the 29-year-old Hansen.

“We’re not able to negotiate,” he said. “This is a hard situation for me. It’s fair maybe for one year to have us on a deal where we get maybe the league minimum. Because for teams it’s a shot in the dark. But after that, we should be able to. Especially if teams want to pay us more.”

The Bombers actually tried to sign Hansen to a deal with a bigger salary after his first season, 2019, but the league voided it.

Word is the CFL Players Association is working to get the rules changed in the new collective bargaining agreement. While Hansen appreciates the opportunity the league has given him,  he’s not sure how much longer he wants to put his body on the line for such low pay.

“I play all the special teams, I get snaps on defence,” he said. “So I’ve got to see, if they don’t change, if I really want to continue to do it.”

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/friesen-bombers-free-agent-hansen-makes-play-of-his-life

I still feel like I am missing something. Can't they just sign him as an International for whatever salary they want?

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

I still feel like I am missing something. Can't they just sign him as an International for whatever salary they want?

Yes, but then they have to play another Global and keep another Global on the roster. 

[Super Duper Negatron]

25 minutes ago, JCon said:

Yes, but then they have to play another Global and keep another Global on the roster. 

I guess I look at it as a development spot. If a Global player is good enough to play over an international, then they get paid like one and you can develop another one.

[JCon]

Just now, Super Duper Negatron said:

I guess I look at it as a development spot. If a Global player is good enough to play over an international, then they get paid like one and you can develop another one.

But, then we're going to lose Hansen and there was no point in developing him. We can get better players down south and just churn them. 

The roster spot was to develop the player but also develop a global market for the game. 

So, the league will lose the best Global it has. 

[Jesse]

11 minutes ago, JCon said:

But, then we're going to lose Hansen and there was no point in developing him. We can get better players down south and just churn them. 

The roster spot was to develop the player but also develop a global market for the game. 

So, the league will lose the best Global it has. 

Which is why the CBA will likely change this.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

If you are suggesting that Wolitarsky is as good as Demski/Bailey/Ellingson than I have to wonder what you are basing that belief on.

I don't know why he couldn't be "better" than demski... totally different kind of receiver and demski fits what they like to do so well, but in terms of production I don't know that wolitarsky is all that far off if he was put in a position to do more. He's not Jamie Stoddard out there. He's got more tools and more pedigree than that. Just the way they built the receivers this is where he plays and his numbers will always be less than they could be because of it.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, itchy said:

Found it;

A little-known aspect of the league’s agreement for global players is a rule limiting them to a salary of $54,000 – $11,000 below the CFL minimum for all other players.

So becoming a free agent last month was basically meaningless for the 29-year-old Hansen.

“We’re not able to negotiate,” he said. “This is a hard situation for me. It’s fair maybe for one year to have us on a deal where we get maybe the league minimum. Because for teams it’s a shot in the dark. But after that, we should be able to. Especially if teams want to pay us more.”

The Bombers actually tried to sign Hansen to a deal with a bigger salary after his first season, 2019, but the league voided it.

Word is the CFL Players Association is working to get the rules changed in the new collective bargaining agreement. While Hansen appreciates the opportunity the league has given him,  he’s not sure how much longer he wants to put his body on the line for such low pay.

“I play all the special teams, I get snaps on defence,” he said. “So I’ve got to see, if they don’t change, if I really want to continue to do it.”

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/friesen-bombers-free-agent-hansen-makes-play-of-his-life

No doubt the Bombers could create a workaround. A mysterious benefactor could provide Hansen with a vehicle, paid promotional work, housing, gift cards for restaurants etc. Riders were doing that for decades.

[GCn20]

24 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

I don't know why he couldn't be "better" than demski... totally different kind of receiver and demski fits what they like to do so well, but in terms of production I don't know that wolitarsky is all that far off if he was put in a position to do more. He's not Jamie Stoddard out there. He's got more tools and more pedigree than that. Just the way they built the receivers this is where he plays and his numbers will always be less than they could be because of it.

Demski not only produces but he gives DCs much more to guard against, and therefore, creates openings for others. Production is just one aspect of what he contributes to our offence. He would be completely wasted at WR as he is worth far more in the slot because he is much more than just a receiving threat.

I am not suggesting that Woli couldn't be productive in the slot. He could be. My argument is simply that what is best for the Bombers is that he play the WR position because other receivers add more to our offence and make our offence better by being in the slot. Maybe he gets his shot in the slot this year if we move Bailey out and Saunders isn't up to snuff, but I doubt it. Therefore, I predict another 500-600 yard year for Woli, and I'm not sure why that is a bad thing. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by GCn20

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

But, then we're going to lose Hansen and there was no point in developing him. We can get better players down south and just churn them. 

The roster spot was to develop the player but also develop a global market for the game. 

So, the league will lose the best Global it has. 

Here’s the thing though. If his “development” is such that he is still the 46th best on the 46 man roster, the. He hasn’t really developed. If he is better than other “internationals” then pay him accordingly and cut the lesser player. It actually won’t hinder the development of the global market because it forces the team to scout and find another global player who then draws more eyes to the game. Increasing the global salary actually allows teams to just keep the bare minimum of global players on hand and not expand their global base. If the global player is no good, then he gets replaced by another global at minimum cost. If he is good enough, then he should be ready-categorized as an international and get paid accordingly, the team then cuts its worst “international” in favour of him, and the team should continue to develop the global plan by bringing in a new face in that category. 

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Here’s the thing though. If his “development” is such that he is still the 46th best on the 46 man roster, the. He hasn’t really developed. If he is better than other “internationals” then pay him accordingly and cut the lesser player. It actually won’t hinder the development of the global market because it forces the team to scout and find another global player who then draws more eyes to the game. Increasing the global salary actually allows teams to just keep the bare minimum of global players on hand and not expand their global base. If the global player is no good, then he gets replaced by another global at minimum cost. If he is good enough, then he should be ready-categorized as an international and get paid accordingly, the team then cuts its worst “international” in favour of him, and the team should continue to develop the global plan by bringing in a new face in that category. 

The point is to develop the Globals and create a new pipeline for players, with the hope of growing the CFL game outside Canada. 

I would rather us just get a kid from the US on a $65k salary and churn them. Easier and cheaper to do than scouting Global players. (Or is it Global punters?)

Hansen is good enough to be our Global but probably not good enough to replace someone from the US. 

Why bother with Globals? 

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, GCn20 said:

USFL attendance opening weekend. Liam Dobson will be here by the beginning of TC. Looks like less than a thousand people. They are claiming much higher attendance but the eyeball test is what I go by. There are almost as many players as fans.

You guys are way overestimating the effect of the hashmark move.

You're underestimating it, a lot. 

4 hours ago, GCn20 said:

I like Woli a lot but he's the 6th option in our offence no matter where we put the hashmarks. He's great at what he does and what we need him for but I don't understand the narrative that he is chronically under utilized in an offence that boasts 4 receivers that are better than him.

Woli settles for a role but has shown and produced at a much higher level. Lawler was the no3 option going into last year. 2nd year woli was as good or better than 1st year lawler, 2nd year bailey, and 95% of nic demski's career. You just don't grasp the nature of the position and role he plays.