2021/22 - CFL Offseason - Non-Back-to-Back Grey Cup Champion Thread

[Nolby]

21 hours ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Taman wasn't given the same resources that Kyle has at his disposal now. Very true. That said, would he have done as much with them as Kyle has done?

Taman brought in some serious talent to his name but I feel Walters laid a serious foundation that we haven't seen in quite some time.

[GCn20]

1 minute ago, Nolby said:

Taman brought in some serious talent to his name but I feel Walters laid a serious foundation that we haven't seen in quite some time.

It really is unfair to compare the two. Taman had no SMS, but budget considerations, while Kyle has an SMS but is able to spend with any team in the league. Both men had to take different tacts to try and succeed. Until SMS levelled the playing field though it was whoever could spend the most and most of the time that was Edmonton.

On 2022-01-02 at 11:32 PM, TrueBlue4ever said:

His approach of trading draft picks for players was controversial for some, but it did rebuild a terrible team faster than expected. He felt a known commodity was better than an unproven draft choice that they might lose to free agency anyway once they developed him. Long term it meant the club had trouble maintaining a consistent stable contender, but short term it built a good team from a bad one and brought in key pieces. 

Taman had the luxury of no SMS, so draft picks were not as valuable as they are now.

[Dr Zaius]

Also the Riders started off 8-2 in 2014 then Durant got injured and their season went off the rails. Taman built some pretty good teams

[Geebrr]

10 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

It really is unfair to compare the two. Taman had no SMS, but budget considerations, while Kyle has an SMS but is able to spend with any team in the league. Both men had to take different tacts to try and succeed. Until SMS levelled the playing field though it was whoever could spend the most and most of the time that was Edmonton.

Taman had the luxury of no SMS, so draft picks were not as valuable as they are now.

There was a salary cap/SMS when Taman was the GM here.

[GCn20]

7 minutes ago, Dr Zaius said:

Also the Riders started off 8-2 in 2014 then Durant got injured and their season went off the rails. Taman built some pretty good teams

Taman's downfall was that he was never able to change his style to the SMS era. He is definitely capable of putting together a championship/championship calibre roster. In the SMS era he just does not have a hope of maintaining it. The 2013 Rider championship set back their team a number of years.

2 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

There was a salary cap/SMS when Taman was the GM here.

Was there? There was an unenforced trial balloon at the end of his tenure. The SMS did not come into effect until 2007 which is the very tail end of his tenure here.

Edited January 4, 2022 by GCn20

[17to85]

7 hours ago, Brandon said:

Lol based on the fact that he's brought in great players and Taman is only known for his subway sandwich napkins and occasionally making a decent trade.   Taman has been ridiculed how many times over the years and given a pass because people feel sorry for him.       If Taman was some great GM material and his only missing ingredient would be money for scouts... then why hasn't any team given him the keys and some money?  Why are teams not fighting over signing the guy to be a part of their team.     Look Murphy is an idiot off the field and nobody is going to deny that,  but come on now any one of us could stumble around and make a few trades like Taman did and just build a team around players that we already know about.   

So based on your quote..... what has Milt Stegall done with his zero Grey Cups on his resume?   Guy must be a bum.  That Paul LaPolice guy you crap on so much... how many Grey Cup rings does he have?      

 

If Murphy is so great how come no one has ever made him a gm? Multiple teams have given Brendan Taman that chance... i am just trying to figure out what in God's name you are basing this argument on. Some good ******* players have come into the league under Tamans direction too. 

[Geebrr]

 

8 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Taman's downfall was that he was never able to change his style to the SMS era. He is definitely capable of putting together a championship/championship calibre roster. In the SMS era he just does not have a hope of maintaining it. The 2013 Rider championship set back their team a number of years.

Was there? There was an unenforced trial balloon at the end of his tenure. The SMS did not come into effect until 2007 which is the very tail end of his tenure here.

There was a salary cap prior to the SMS.

Whether teams respected it or not, and whether it was enforced is another story. But, it existed.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Geebrr

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Geebrr said:

 

There was a salary cap prior to the SMS.

Whether teams respected it or not, and whether it was enforced is another story. But, it existed.

 

Yep it was a thing. A joke but still a thing.  And I mean its still a joke. Every year the riders hide a 75 to 80 man squad between the ir and suspended list. While the argos beg for money to over pay all the linebackers and wrs. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

56 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Taman's downfall was that he was never able to change his style to the SMS era. He is definitely capable of putting together a championship/championship calibre roster. In the SMS era he just does not have a hope of maintaining it. The 2013 Rider championship set back their team a number of years.

Was there? There was an unenforced trial balloon at the end of his tenure. The SMS did not come into effect until 2007 which is the very tail end of his tenure here.

Given the profits that one championship generated for the Province and the team, it was arguably worth it to take the setback for a few years. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/leaderpost.com/sports/roughriders/football/roughriders-crack-43-million-in-gross-revenues-for-2013-14/wcm/6a0209aa-a10b-448b-b7ac-2e252c0a5150/amp/

As for the earlier salary cap, it was in place but teams flagrantly ignored it. Taman was on Bob Irving’s coach’s show and I called in and asked why he didn’t violate the cap, given the almost non-existent penalties for going over. He responded “believe me, I wish I could. Lyle won’t let me”. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/sports/salary-cap-bypassed-or-ignored-by-cfl/article25425105/

[Brandon]

3 hours ago, 17to85 said:

If Murphy is so great how come no one has ever made him a gm? Multiple teams have given Brendan Taman that chance... i am just trying to figure out what in God's name you are basing this argument on. Some good ******* players have come into the league under Tamans direction too. 

Mike Kelly was giving a chance to be a head coach,  do you think he's a better coach then Buck Pierce?  Your argument succccccccccccks. 

[GCn20]

3 hours ago, Geebrr said:

 

There was a salary cap prior to the SMS.

Whether teams respected it or not, and whether it was enforced is another story. But, it existed.

 

There is no cap if it is not an enforced cap. We went over it on more than one occasion and so did other teams. It was a guideline.

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Given the profits that one championship generated for the Province and the team, it was arguably worth it to take the setback for a few years. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/leaderpost.com/sports/roughriders/football/roughriders-crack-43-million-in-gross-revenues-for-2013-14/wcm/6a0209aa-a10b-448b-b7ac-2e252c0a5150/amp/

As for the earlier salary cap, it was in place but teams flagrantly ignored it. Taman was on Bob Irving’s coach’s show and I called in and asked why he didn’t violate the cap, given the almost non-existent penalties for going over. He responded “believe me, I wish I could. Lyle won’t let me”. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/sports/salary-cap-bypassed-or-ignored-by-cfl/article25425105/

There was no cap. Salaries were reported by the teams themselves with the CFL having no rights to look at the books.

[Brandon]

I've never seen anywhere that suggested that Taman had great connections,  great ability to scout talent,  ability to draft,   ability to bring in new talent to replace expensive declining talent,  absolutely nothing.  

I've only read and seen him make trades with known names and sign guys based on some players recommending friends.     It's ok to admit we hired a mediocre/crap GM... it's not like we need to defend the choices of Reinbold/Kelly/Burke and even Mack to a certain extent.  It happens but to be in loser denial is fooling no one.    Taman was in way over his head as a GM and I'm sure whatever he is doing now is much more perfectly suited for his level of talent.     

This is not a knock on the guys personality or who he is as a person.   In today's world the level of professionalism is ten fold more critical in the CFL and he simply wasn't on that level.     

Murphy was never a GM but he was scouted and "desired" because he did have a great ability to recruit and find talent.  It's not something that a quick napkin or google search of cfl rosters can do.    As a person he clearly is an a-hole and sometimes you can have all the talent in the world but if you have a crap personality (see A. Brown in the NFL)  you simply won't find a long term home.  

[Geebrr]

24 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

There is no cap if it is not an enforced cap. We went over it on more than one occasion and so did other teams. It was a guideline.

There was no cap. Salaries were reported by the teams themselves with the CFL having no rights to look at the books.

There was a salary cap.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Geebrr

[Booch]

14 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I've never seen anywhere that suggested that Taman had great connections,  great ability to scout talent,  ability to draft,   ability to bring in new talent to replace expensive declining talent,  absolutely nothing.  

I've only read and seen him make trades with known names and sign guys based on some players recommending friends.     It's ok to admit we hired a mediocre/crap GM... it's not like we need to defend the choices of Reinbold/Kelly/Burke and even Mack to a certain extent.  It happens but to be in loser denial is fooling no one.    Taman was in way over his head as a GM and I'm sure whatever he is doing now is much more perfectly suited for his level of talent.     

This is not a knock on the guys personality or who he is as a person.   In today's world the level of professionalism is ten fold more critical in the CFL and he simply wasn't on that level.     

Murphy was never a GM but he was scouted and "desired" because he did have a great ability to recruit and find talent.  It's not something that a quick napkin or google search of cfl rosters can do.    As a person he clearly is an a-hole and sometimes you can have all the talent in the world but if you have a crap personality (see A. Brown in the NFL)  you simply won't find a long term home.  

Taman had no scouting acumen or any connections whatsoever, this I know....majority of his "finds" were players telling him to check out this guy...bring in that guy...

Gavin Walls was a guy dropped on his lap...Tman didnt even wanna bring him to camp, and finally gave in to pressure, but claimed he wouldn't make it out of camp

Charles Roberts too...reluctantly agreed to bring him to camp...said he would never last a season, and also his hands were too small and would be a fumble machine...this is just 2 examples...and what do u expect tho from a guy who never played...coached...and was a inhouse promotion from waterboy I believe when he first got into football...nice guy...but horrible G.M

He also had no clue to navigate the SMS and it was pawned off on Hodgkinson I think...cant remember at moment as just got back from dental surgery and am on some "meds" lol

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

Taman had no scouting acumen or any connections whatsoever, this I know....majority of his "finds" were players telling him to check out this guy...bring in that guy...

Gavin Walls was a guy dropped on his lap...Tman didnt even wanna bring him to camp, and finally gave in to pressure, but claimed he wouldn't make it out of camp

Charles Roberts too...reluctantly agreed to bring him to camp...said he would never last a season, and also his hands were too small and would be a fumble machine...this is just 2 examples...and what do u expect tho from a guy who never played...coached...and was a inhouse promotion from waterboy I believe when he first got into football...nice guy...but horrible G.M

He also had no clue to navigate the SMS and it was pawned off on Hodgkinson I think...cant remember at moment as just got back from dental surgery and am on some "meds" lol

Not a bad track record for a horrible GM though. As AGM and GM in Winnipeg got us to two Grey Cups in 2001 and 2007, arguably two we should have won (if “fumble machine” Roberts doesn’t drop the Kevin Glenn handoff), as GM in Sask 2 more Grey Cups and one win in 2010 and 2013.  

And although rare, one does not need to be a former player to be a success in management. 

[Mark H.]

23 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Not a bad track record for a horrible GM though. As AGM and GM in Winnipeg got us to two Grey Cups in 2001 and 2007, arguably two we should have won (if “fumble machine” Roberts doesn’t drop the Kevin Glenn handoff), as GM in Sask 2 more Grey Cups and one win in 2010 and 2013.  

And although rare, one does not need to be a former player to be a success in management. 

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing that Taman's approach couldn't produce a championship

But, what it definitely doesn't produce, is long term success

Yes, the 2007 team could have won a GC, but that team went into decline in 2008. 

[wbbfan]

2 hours ago, Geebrr said:

There was a salary cap.

 

I actually vaguely recall a salary floor being enforced a bit. Maybe first year renegades and a couple times prior on cheaply run bad teams. Could be wrong but I think they signed some silly high contract us rookies to eat up room. 

2 hours ago, Booch said:

Taman had no scouting acumen or any connections whatsoever, this I know....majority of his "finds" were players telling him to check out this guy...bring in that guy...

Gavin Walls was a guy dropped on his lap...Tman didnt even wanna bring him to camp, and finally gave in to pressure, but claimed he wouldn't make it out of camp

Charles Roberts too...reluctantly agreed to bring him to camp...said he would never last a season, and also his hands were too small and would be a fumble machine...this is just 2 examples...and what do u expect tho from a guy who never played...coached...and was a inhouse promotion from waterboy I believe when he first got into football...nice guy...but horrible G.M

He also had no clue to navigate the SMS and it was pawned off on Hodgkinson I think...cant remember at moment as just got back from dental surgery and am on some "meds" lol

Robert Gordon over geroy Simon. Got barely edged out on arland Bruce and a bunch of guys. Aside from his scouting napkins and crazy desperate trades he was the worst negotiator ever. Over pays to guys like Wayne McGaritty and soo many bad moves. 78 percent done deal to karikari he reported as done at first. 

Imagine if we had geroy Simon for his whole career. Or Simon Bruce and milt for a couple years. That offense would've been devastating if we had any one to throw the ball. 

Pat Barnes big contract too. Soo many bad qbs. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

5 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing that Taman's approach couldn't produce a championship

But, what it definitely doesn't produce, is long term success

Yes, the 2007 team could have won a GC, but that team went into decline in 2008. 

I totally agree with that assessment. Some figure that in a league of nine teams, you can tear down and re-build more quickly, and will take that flash in the pan approach. But I am enjoying the sustained success of the Walters approach much more for sure (it helps to stomach that mindset when the long drought is over and we have more patience as fans). 

[Brandon]

19 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I totally agree with that assessment. Some figure that in a league of nine teams, you can tear down and re-build more quickly, and will take that flash in the pan approach. But I am enjoying the sustained success of the Walters approach much more for sure (it helps to stomach that mindset when the long drought is over and we have more patience as fans). 

In a league where it appears every one is on a one year contract... I'll take a system over some hot shot one off deals.   

[Goalie]

Taman? Canadian talent was a problem but it'd hard to compare as the Bombers were basically well... they are the ideal CFL destination now and have been for some time.  Don't recall us ever being option 1 or 2 for players in his Era. 

Fun fact 2022 is the year of the tiger. But in the CFL world.. it's gonna be the year of the Bombers 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Goalie

[Arnold_Palmer]

14 hours ago, Goalie said:

Taman? Canadian talent was a problem but it'd hard to compare as the Bombers were basically well... they are the ideal CFL destination now and have been for some time.  Don't recall us ever being option 1 or 2 for players in his Era. 

Fun fact 2022 is the year of the tiger. But in the CFL world.. it's gonna be the year of the Bombers 

Yeah we kind of earned that reputation over time with team culture, and the eventual playoff success. We were nobodies number one option in 2014 or 2015. 

[17to85]

The thing that has completely won me over on Kyle Walters is the fact that I don't think there is a harder working gm out there. He is certainly the most pro-active gm in the league and always has plans. 

[GCn20]

15 hours ago, Goalie said:

Taman? Canadian talent was a problem but it'd hard to compare as the Bombers were basically well... they are the ideal CFL destination now and have been for some time.  Don't recall us ever being option 1 or 2 for players in his Era. 

Fun fact 2022 is the year of the tiger. But in the CFL world.. it's gonna be the year of the Bombers 

Taman didn't exactly have a bevy of great homegrown NATs to try and attract home either. Not saying that is the reason that our NAT talent is so much better under Walters but it sure didn't hurt to have guys like Harris and Demski wanting to come home. That sure helped our cause significantly the past few years.

[rebusrankin]

Desjarlais

Eli

Goossen

Chung

Gray

Couture

Wolitarski

Kongbo

Briggs

I'd say that Walters has helped our National talent cause quite a bit.

[GCn20]

8 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Desjarlais

Eli

Goossen

Chung

Gray

Couture

Wolitarski

Kongbo

Briggs

I'd say that Walters has helped our National talent cause quite a bit.

I don't think anyone said he didn't.