2021/22 - CFL Offseason - Non-Back-to-Back Grey Cup Champion Thread

[Jpan85]

I think the lower scoring is less related to how good defenses are but more on CFL offense. Been thinking about this back in the hay day of CFL scoring Mid 90's to mid 00's teams turned the ball over a lot more than they do these days. The best quarterbacks in league all had 20 to 30 int's in a season turn overs lead to short fields and short fields lead to points. Also the fact that teams use a lot of ball control offense drive the ball 10-15 plays in six or seven minutes you score three TD on long drives and that burns up a lot of clock. No teams just constantly are chucking the ball down the field because they don't want to  turn it over. Special teams also factors in to it as well less big returns starting field position has probably also trend further to offenses own goal lines.

[wbbfan]

11 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Want to improve offenses? Drop 2 of the DI spots. Teams use them almost exclusively for defensive players now to keep their guys fresh and throw different situational looks at an offense. That's the biggest change.

The offensive issue is soo multi faceted it will require a multi pronged attack. 

For the DI, I think rosters are too small already. But you could tweak DI in other ways. Limit DI's on D, give them less offensive/defensive reps, only allow them to sub in if an imp goes down and is out for the game etc. 

That said I think the meat of the problem is lack of creativity in offense. In the past 5 - 10 years the NFL and ncaa have stormed past the cfl in terms of developing offensive strategy. The roots of the systems we see flourishing today are old, but they were long relegated to desperate junk college programs with low talent and athleticism. Spread to run, RPO, QB option run, and Flex offenses that run tight stacks and spread with motion / post snap run football south of the border now. Mean while up here every one is doing the old 49ers offense as seen through the lense of paul lapolice.  Mtl has tried to institute RPO under khari jones but has not been very good with it.

The CFL has lost touch with the ncaa as a venue for coaching talent. All we see now is former cfl players, who have cfl coaching lineages. No one breaks the mold. This applies to defense too. CFL coaching has become inbred past the point of The Hills Have Eyes. Each team should be carrying a none CFL coach like the global player we carry. 

Back when Michael vick entered the NFL the majority of his runs were adlib. The designed run calls were extremely uninspired and not creative. If you watch what the ravens do now it's like a student who failed gr5 science compared to a physics doctoral candidate. 

 You could force defenses to have a certain amount of players on the line of scrimmage at the snap of the ball to make deep cover harder, or limit the men on the line to reduce qb pressure. You could greatly increase the penalty for punting out of bounds between the 20s, and change rules for alignment on blocking for punts so that it's much riskier and more worth while to go for it on 3rd down. More PI calls made the passing game much worse, but you could take out the ability to jam wrs. Lots of options exist to tweak the offensive rule set to enable offenses. 

At the end of the day, CFL teams are doing a poor job of investing in and developing OL, especially imp ol. Teams aren't following the trends and making good use of the plethora of athletic qbs, and coaching is stagnant. The teams created this situation and now want every one else to suffer in order to fix it for them rather than doing the work and dealing with specific issues on their own. 

[Tracker]

38 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 

Why not reduce the number of players on the filed by one as well and rename the CFL to "NFL Tier Two"?

[Brandon]

If they want higher scores then why not merge the league with Arena football?  

[TBURGESS]

I don't mind moving the hash marks in, but I don't expect that will result in anything more than higher FG %.

[rebusrankin]

Ironically one of the sources that Hal Mumme who invented the air raid (Leach was an assistant for him) used was the hurry up offense/two minute drive that Don Matthews used in bc and the WLAF. I agree we have stagnated in terms of offensive inovation.

[JCon]

I like watching a dominant defense but I didn't always. In my youth, I was a pure offense guy. I barely paid attention to the plays the defense was running. I didn't even learn much about coverage until I played Madden and, even then, I would often just take the recommended play. 

All this to say, that I understand why offense is the focus. I understand that it helps sell the game to the more casual fans. The NFL, right this moment, has probably the most talented and most entertaining group of QBs ever and the CFL doesn't. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by JCon

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, Noeller said:

we get it, Al....trust me.....we all get it. But your constant harping is just really annoying man...... trust me, we all get it. 

And I'll keep harping as long as the Randy apologists keep sticking up for him. . Ambrosie's terrible. Has he denied beyond the shadow of a doubt that we won't switch to 4 down football? Says nothing. He could put all these rumours to rest & yet he doesn't. So, these stories keep popping up. This could mean the destruction of our beloved CFL. That assclown deserves all the scorn he gets. 

4 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Cant blame him for harping on it tbh. We've all had points that stuck in our craw over the years, but very few of them had such a likely hood of killing canadian football. 

 I think the best case scenario at this point is, significant enough fan back lash that the puppet masters have to about face and sacrifice Ambrosie to appease the masses. Mean while looking for another hapless stooge to fill the void. 

 I don't think a comish has run this league since cohon. And I think that's what it needs. A real leader in a real position of power. 

Mark Cohon... It's almost like it was the Golden Age compared to now. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

The offensive issue is soo multi faceted it will require a multi pronged attack. 

For the DI, I think rosters are too small already. But you could tweak DI in other ways. Limit DI's on D, give them less offensive/defensive reps, only allow them to sub in if an imp goes down and is out for the game etc. 

That said I think the meat of the problem is lack of creativity in offense. In the past 5 - 10 years the NFL and ncaa have stormed past the cfl in terms of developing offensive strategy. The roots of the systems we see flourishing today are old, but they were long relegated to desperate junk college programs with low talent and athleticism. Spread to run, RPO, QB option run, and Flex offenses that run tight stacks and spread with motion / post snap run football south of the border now. Mean while up here every one is doing the old 49ers offense as seen through the lense of paul lapolice.  Mtl has tried to institute RPO under khari jones but has not been very good with it.

The CFL has lost touch with the ncaa as a venue for coaching talent. All we see now is former cfl players, who have cfl coaching lineages. No one breaks the mold. This applies to defense too. CFL coaching has become inbred past the point of The Hills Have Eyes. Each team should be carrying a none CFL coach like the global player we carry. 

Back when Michael vick entered the NFL the majority of his runs were adlib. The designed run calls were extremely uninspired and not creative. If you watch what the ravens do now it's like a student who failed gr5 science compared to a physics doctoral candidate. 

 You could force defenses to have a certain amount of players on the line of scrimmage at the snap of the ball to make deep cover harder, or limit the men on the line to reduce qb pressure. You could greatly increase the penalty for punting out of bounds between the 20s, and change rules for alignment on blocking for punts so that it's much riskier and more worth while to go for it on 3rd down. More PI calls made the passing game much worse, but you could take out the ability to jam wrs. Lots of options exist to tweak the offensive rule set to enable offenses. 

At the end of the day, CFL teams are doing a poor job of investing in and developing OL, especially imp ol. Teams aren't following the trends and making good use of the plethora of athletic qbs, and coaching is stagnant. The teams created this situation and now want every one else to suffer in order to fix it for them rather than doing the work and dealing with specific issues on their own. 

The biggest problems I see are two things: Canadian offensive linemen who aren't good enough to play are starting because coaches want to put most of the starting 7 Canadians on both sides of the line. Canadian OL out of college for the most part aren't ready & need time to develop. We went thru that in the early part of the last decade where qbs like Drew Willy were sacrificed for the ratio. It killed him & his career as he became a human piniatta playing for us. We tried to develop an All Canadian OL.  It just never happened because of a lack of talent & the fact it takes years to develop most Canadian offensive linemen. Only when we played Americans in the mix on the OL did things improve. 

Two, is the lack of great qbs. The NFL hordes all the best. Guys that would have played here in the past are buried as the #3 qb on an NFL roster or on a practice roster because they can make more money doing that so they don't come up to the CFL anymore. Instead, we get mostly small colleges, D2, some NAIA & players who lack the talent & smarts to learn a Canadian offensive playbook & read defenses. 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The biggest problems I see are two things: Canadian offensive linemen who aren't good enough to play are starting because coaches want to put most of the starting 7 Canadians on both sides of the line. Canadian OL out of college for the most part aren't ready & need time to develop. We went thru that in the early part of the last decade where qbs like Drew Willy were sacrificed for the ratio. It killed him & his career as he became a human piniatta playing for us. We tried to develop an All Canadian OL.  It just never happened because of a lack of talent & the fact it takes years to develop most Canadian offensive linemen. Only when we played Americans in the mix on the OL did things improve. 

Two, is the lack of great qbs. The NFL hordes all the best. Guys that would have played here in the past are buried as the #3 qb on an NFL roster or on a practice roster because they can make more money doing that so they don't come up to the CFL anymore. Instead, we get mostly small colleges, D2, some NAIA & players who lack the talent & smarts to learn a Canadian offensive playbook & read defenses. 

Certainly teams like the riders have been forcing none pro quality ni ol into starting jobs. But teams aren't doing good now. But teams aren't developing well either. Ni or imp.

Nfl teams used to stick to their mold and we used to get high quality spread qbs. Now the highest caliber qbs available are athletic dual threats that no team uses well here. 

 Mostly we don't even go after the next tier down guys. We get failed transfer guys who were big in hs busted at a big d1 school transfered and was ok for a year at a small school. 

[Goalie]

3 hours ago, Noeller said:

all this talk about improving the offense....Ambrosie said he wants to see 49-49 games be a regular thing.........really? Do people not like seeing good defense? I love seeing great coverage by DBs...I love seeing a great pass rush from the line. I love seeing a great blitz from the LB corps. All this changing to make it easier on the O seems really artificial and dumb. 

We all pay to see an exciting win from the home team. 50 0 Is fantastic entertainment for the home side but ppl likely tuning out. 

 

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, Goalie said:

We all pay to see an exciting win from the home team. 50 0 Is fantastic entertainment for the home side but ppl likely tuning out. 

 

If we all have high scoring games then fans will say the league has no defense & is unwatchable. 49-49 games aren't the answer either. 

[Brandon]

I don't understand this bull **** about lack of scoring and boring play.    

Ambrosie is a tool,  the CFL games are exciting even if scoring is a bit lower.   He needs to watch xfl 2.0 and the other fly by league and see just how terrible 4 down football can be.       It's not like the CFL is full of 2 and outs and punts and nothing else.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by Brandon

[bigg jay]

One thing I'll say about Ambrosie is that our GC record is pretty good under his watch so he's got that going for him.

[Super Duper Negatron]

Fine with moving the hash marks. Also fine with a 5 yard holding penalty.

Shortening the field seems pointless, and would seemingly bring the rouge into play on kickoffs a lot more, which would detract from the return game. NFL kickoffs are the most pointless play in sports.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Super Duper Negatron

[17to85]

So if they make holding 5 yards will they actually call it?

[SpeedFlex27]

49 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So if they make holding 5 yards will they actually call it?

As an aside, just watch.... every long pass will be a PI. 

[Mark H.]

17 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The biggest problems I see are two things: Canadian offensive linemen who aren't good enough to play are starting because coaches want to put most of the starting 7 Canadians on both sides of the line. Canadian OL out of college for the most part aren't ready & need time to develop. We went thru that in the early part of the last decade where qbs like Drew Willy were sacrificed for the ratio. It killed him & his career as he became a human piniatta playing for us. We tried to develop an All Canadian OL.  It just never happened because of a lack of talent & the fact it takes years to develop most Canadian offensive linemen. Only when we played Americans in the mix on the OL did things improve.  

I completely agree.  I would go as far as saying, this past season, QB protection was abysmal outside of Winnipeg, Hamilton and maybe Toronto

Any team that played the Bombers simply could not protect their QB.  IMO, the only time our DL was blocked somewhat effectively, was in the Grey Cup

Teams are bringing in American DEs and DTs who are close to NFL calibre.  Outside of Winnipeg, this is not being matched along offensive lines, especially NOT at the OT positions

 

[TBURGESS]

I'm surprised they aren't talking about reducing the ratio. More talent for less money sounds like one way to better CFL football.

Turns out it's not Genius that's pushing for 4 downs... https://3downnation.com/2022/03/18/genius-sports-denies-pushing-cfl-to-play-four-down-football/

Edited March 19, 2022 by TBURGESS

[Jesse]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm surprised they aren't talking about reducing the ratio. More talent for less money sounds like one way to better CFL football.

Turns out it's not Genius that's pushing for 4 downs... https://3downnation.com/2022/03/18/genius-sports-denies-pushing-cfl-to-play-four-down-football/

Don't know if I buy that, but the topic comes up naturally every now and then.

There are certainly some teams and owners who think along these lines.

[Stickem]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm surprised they aren't talking about reducing the ratio. More talent for less money sounds like one way to better CFL football.

Turns out it's not Genius that's pushing for 4 downs... https://3downnation.com/2022/03/18/genius-sports-denies-pushing-cfl-to-play-four-down-football/

Ambrosie says '''and if they're quoting him correctly, that there's a real push on towards 4 down football'....Genius says it's not them....then where the hell does this 'so called' push come from....I don't think we're getting the whole picture here.....Talk about mixed messaging.....it makes us look so rinky dink, especially over what could be a game changing topic....Confusing the fans ain't a good road to go down

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, Mark H. said:

I completely agree.  I would go as far as saying, this past season, QB protection was abysmal outside of Winnipeg, Hamilton and maybe Toronto

Any team that played the Bombers simply could not protect their QB.  IMO, the only time our DL was blocked somewhat effectively, was in the Grey Cup

Teams are bringing in American DEs and DTs who are close to NFL calibre.  Outside of Winnipeg, this is not being matched along offensive lines, especially NOT at the OT positions

 

Well, I think you have to go eventually one of 2 ways (or both). Either the ratio is dumped or 3 downs.

My concern about dumping the ratio completely is with all the new leagues coming into play that there may not be enough players at certain paositions from the US if they dumped the ratio entirely. So, that would be a concern.

Regarding 4 downs, Do Canadians really want the larger field & 3 downs? Attendance would say otherwise. TV ratings say another. Let's face it, only the opinions of fans aged 18-34 count because advertisers target them. All of us over that age  become less important the older we get.

The CFL wants to attract a younger demographic. If survey show that younger audiences prefer 4 down football with American rules than it'll happen., I believe. Which is why Randy Ambrosie is not denying it won't.

So, we old fogies can huff & puff all we want. We can bluster all day long about 4 down football. In the end it won't matter. what we want. Ambrosie's refusal to deny 4 down football will ever happen tells us what may be coming down the line.

[TBURGESS]

2 hours ago, Stickem said:

Ambrosie says '''and if they're quoting him correctly, that there's a real push on towards 4 down football'....Genius says it's not them....then where the hell does this 'so called' push come from....I don't think we're getting the whole picture here.....Talk about mixed messaging.....it makes us look so rinky dink, especially over what could be a game changing topic....Confusing the fans ain't a good road to go down

My guess is that it's Ambrosie himself that wants the change to 4 downs and he's the one pushing it.

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

My guess is that it's Ambrosie himself that wants the change to 4 downs and he's the one pushing it.

My guess is that it's the owners in Toronto and Montreal pushing for it.

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

My guess is that it's Ambrosie himself that wants the change to 4 downs and he's the one pushing it.

I think Randy & the BOG's want to merge with the USFL & XFL for the purpose of being a developmental league for the NFL. I think the USFL & XFL were created to merge. I think the CFL is worried they'll miss out on the gravy train if they don't go along with it as well. The NFL will pour $$$ along with tv money going into it would be huge. If the NFL backs it, then it would be here to stay. That's where I believe Ambrosie & the BOG's is angling the league toward going to 4 downs. I don't know about you guys but to me it's obvious. With the CFL struggling financially I think it's inevitable. 

It will be a business decision. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by SpeedFlex27