BACK 2 BACK CHAMPS at Argos GDT

[Mark H.]

1 minute ago, JCon said:

It's pretty clear unless you're trying really hard to make the call make sense. 

Yeah, there is no available body part, to keep the ball off the ground, Houston is lying on his side.

[Bomber_fanaddict]

I remember alot of these comments and concerns at this point last year. At this time last year we were 3-1, scored 80pts and gave up 59. We were hardly world beaters. 
 

This year we are 4-0 scoring 87pts and giving up 63. 
 

Again not looking like world beaters. But if we have learned anything over the last few years this team is slow at starting and ramps it up when needed. I don’t have many worries at this point. 

[JCon]

We know it's all about timing, Just be the best team when playoffs start. Get there by winning games, any way you know how. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

Here is the link to the video replay from TSN. Best view is at the 2:00 mark. If you can’t open the link here then go to TSN and look for the “Must See video” of the catch. His right hand and left arm are under the ball to my eye and it never hits the turf. But if I can’t convince you of that point which seems the least contentious of the whole play (which seems to be pretty clear unless you are looking for a reason to blame the refs), then there is no point in arguing the “surviving contact” portion of the play or if the top of the ball touches when Banks squeezes it between his legs. If the play is dead the moment he is down by contact, it should be an INT. If “surviving contact” is allowed to be factored in to the play, then it is properly upheld as a TD. I have not gone to referee school so I can’t speak to the nuance of the rule. 

In the end, I agree that a referee on the booth to explain the rules would be great, but that will hardly settle the issue. Trying to convince some fans that the refs aren’t all biased against their team and that the commentators are all rooting for the opponent of your team every time is like trying to convince the tide to stop from coming in to shore, so an explanation from on high will not convince some that it is still the wrong decision. But refs are human and for every contested TD catch there will be a contested 3rd down spot of the ball that goes for your team, but which you will explain away because it serves your interest as a fan. So we’ll all have to agree to disagree on this call, like so many others.

As for the commentators rooting for Toronto, they are in the business of selling a story, selling excitement, so they will cheer on an underdog or a comeback, not because they hate your team but because they want to keep the audience engaged and invested until the clock hits zero. Again probably not a popular take for many who have expressed their consistent disdain for the TSN broadcast. But I’m pretty confident Rod Smith and Duane Ford don’t care who wins or loses, nor do the refs unless they are betting on the outcome (and I don’t think an Argo-Bomber game is seeing such action as to make it worth the effort). But fans will fan, so to each their own. And I can only speak for myself, but I suppose I have reached the age where I realize that yelling at the TV is never going to change the call, whether that makes me less of a fan or just closer to a Zen state of enlightenment is for others to decide. Namaste. 
 

https://www.tsn.ca/Must-See/video/must-see-banks-incredible-52-yard-td-grab~2477796

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[17to85]

9 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Trying to convince some fans that the refs aren’t all biased against their team

I don't think refs are biased, just bad. There is a big difference. But then again, why would you ever argue without using hyperbole?

[do or die]

The road to a three peat, is a tough one......might see a somewhat different team by mid-season....

Edited July 5, 2022 by do or die

[kelownabomberfan]

15 hours ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Not even the command centre could change that missed convert.

Now that's funny. Cuz you know they thought about it lol

[Mark H.]

27 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

In the end, I agree that a referee on the booth to explain the rules would be great, but that will hardly settle the issue. Trying to convince some fans that the refs aren’t all biased against their team and that the commentators are all rooting for the opponent of your team every time is like trying to convince the tide to stop from coming in to shore, so an explanation for on high will not convince some that it is still the wrong decision. But refs are human and for every contested TD catch there will be a contested 3rd down spot of the ball that goes for your team, but which you will explain away because it serves your interest as a fan. So we’ll all have to agree to disagree on this call, like so many others.

 

The spot on third down was an incorrect call

So was the touchdown. The angle where you see Houston from behind, you can see the ball touch the ground, right before his jersey covers the sight angle.

[Mark F]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

We know it's all about timing, Just be the best team when playoffs start. Get there by winning games, any way you know how. 

faithbaby!

my memory isnt good for football, game to game, and season to season, but this offence seems really bad to me. 

and Harris could always be counted on to spark the O when it was dragging. nobody to do that now that I can see.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Mark F

[FrostyWinnipeg]

[TrueBlue4ever]

16 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

The spot on third down was an incorrect call

So was the touchdown. The angle where you see Houston from behind, you can see the ball touch the ground, right before his jersey covers the sight angle.

If you are referring to the 1:05 mark in the video, just after Banks’ sock lifts up, that is Houston’s arm with white tape on it, not the football. Unless you mean a different angle, in which case I will look again. 

[TBURGESS]

You're watching it with blue goggles on. The ball didn't touch the ground once let alone twice.

[BomberfanMKS]

10 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

This is the argument for an incomplete pass and the only moment I thought the ball was potentially in contact with the ground.

1:33 in the TSN clip pretty clearly shows the ball rolling off Houston's arm - IMO it doesn't look close to hitting the ground while Houston is touching the ball.

The thing is - this clip probably isn't sufficient for "clear evidence" to call an incompletion... I can't tell if it's touching the ground here or hovering just above the ground - we know the ball is squeezed between Banks knees because it lifts with him as he stands up, his knees aren't on the ground and the ball is just barely below the level of his knees.

As far as down by contact - the ball was shook loose by ground contact... even at slo-mo it doesn't look like his possession survived ground contact (IMO balls starts moving as soon as his elbow is hitting the ground).

My opinion - This play is either an incompletion or a TD and the right call by the command centre is not overturning whatever was called on the field because there isn't clear evidence either way.   What the refs saw at field level is impossible to know, good chance they didn't have the angle from the screenshot to know it might have touched the ground (I don't doubt Houston's defeated body language and Banks indicating a catch also played into the field refs calling a TD based on not having a perfect view of the ball location)

 

[Fatty Liver]

5 hours ago, bearpants said:

 

Sorry, I should've been more clear... I'm not saying that Bombers management made the wrong choice.... just saying, at this moment, Harris is clearly the superior back... if he only ends up playing 8-10 games or significnatly wears down as the season progresses... our management will be proven right

At his age Argos would be smart to spell Harris out more often as they did when he was in BC running with Stefan Logan, that would help preserve his energy and health for later in the season.

[Mark H.]

16 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

If you are referring to the 1:05 mark in the video, just after Banks’ sock lifts up, that is Houston’s arm with white tape on it, not the football. Unless you mean a different angle, in which case I will look again. 

Ok, fair enough. The ball might touch the ground there (yes, I meant 1:05) but it's not conclusive. But keep watching at that point, you can see Banks grab it from between his knees, and it sure appears to touch the ground.

[voodoochylde]

It might not be popular opinion but it's not as cut and dry as many might think (hell even I was pissed right off by the call last night).

To me, it absolutely looks like Houston has possession of the ball and is down when his hip / butt hit the turf but the thing is, he has to survive contact.  As he's going down, the ball is pulled / pops free and he no longer has control.  It absolutely looks like the nose of the ball is on the ground between Bank's legs and I think that if they ruled it an incomplete pass, it would have held up to review but I'm not certain it's definitive.  At best this is an incomplete pass and at worst .. well .. we saw the result of that last night.

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 minute ago, Mark H. said:

Ok, fair enough. The ball might touch the ground there (yes, I meant 1:05) but it's not conclusive. But keep watching at that point, you can Banks grab it from between his knees, and there is does touch the ground. 

That play is a lot closer for sure. I did not see definitive evidence the ball hit the turf between Banks’ knees (no obvious bounce up or change of direction - not like the turf pebbles that came up in the West Final non-catch) but it is possible, I didn’t think there was a clear angle either way, but my initial reaction was “wow, Banks did not drop it” and I saw nothing on review to make me say that was a wrong first assumption. Again, it is subjective and I think the biggest debate is of Houston is down by contact the second he hits the ground or if he is required to “survive contact” to complete the play. That kind of interpretation is what would make a ref in the TV booth a good add to provide insight. I suspect some would still say the ref was wrong since they are likely to back up the call on the field almost every time. 

[17to85]

To me he has possession the whole way and doesn't lose possession until banks pulls it out after he hits the ground. Which shouldn't be possible because soon as he touches he is down by contact.

What the refs do though is err on the side of a touchdown and rely on review to get it right but this one was hard to overturn the call on the field.

[Fatty Liver]

3 hours ago, stevethe3rd said:

From an outside perspective I think you guys have too many big physical recievers. Wolitarasky, Oleary Orange, Ellingson, Bailey, Schoen are all guys that are big and strong. They would also be guys that all benefit from having the waggle because they are not as fast off the line. Unfortunately, for Bailey he seems to be taking most of his snaps from the X position and starting from a stand still. I think the lack of waggle has really hurt him. I don't know how you fix this issue without sitting someone to get more speed/explosiveness in there. Also with how Bailey has played in the past Idk if you can sit him, but the other two Americans are playing better then him. 

Agreed, O-O isn't seeing any balls anyway and McCrae isn't going to stretch the field vertically, send him back to the PR and bring in a receiver with top speed on the outside.  Put Bailey back were he belongs in the slot and let him be himself rather than a poor imitation of Lawler.

[Mark H.]

His knees are just barely off the turf, and the ball is clearly below his knees. It could be that it never touched the ground, but the odds are more likely that it did. And I guess the second question is: did Banks wrestle ball out after Houston was down? 

[do or die]

As many notable Republicans have said..........lets move on.

[TrueBlue4ever]

18 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

To me he has possession the whole way and doesn't lose possession until banks pulls it out after he hits the ground. Which shouldn't be possible because soon as he touches he is down by contact.

What the refs do though is err on the side of a touchdown and rely on review to get it right but this one was hard to overturn the call on the field.

That is how I viewed the play exactly. That’s where an official explanation of “surviving contact” (if that is even part of the rule for possession and “down by contact”) would have been so helpful during the broadcast to determine what the review booth is looking for. 

6 minutes ago, do or die said:

As many notable Republicans have said..........lets move on.

[bb1]

Big difference from last year is we added Stove and Harris after our slow start. Not saying the CDN mafia won't fix it but we don't have the replacements right now.(adding BA and Demski will help but we are not as strong as we were last year) playoff time we will be different.😊

[BomberfanMKS]

18 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

That is how I viewed the play exactly. That’s where an official explanation of “surviving contact” (if that is even part of the rule for possession and “down by contact”) would have been so helpful during the broadcast to determine what the review booth is looking for. 

 

To me this is where the rules basically states your possession needs to survive contact with the ground

Article 6 — Incomplete Forward Pass

A forward pass shall be declared incomplete and the ball next put in play at the point of last scrimmage with downs continuing:

1. when the ball strikes the ground, goal post assembly, an official or any object on or back of the Dead Line or Out of Bounds, even if previously touched by a player,
2. when the ball goes Out of Bounds, even though touched by a player in the Field of Play,
3. when the ball is caught by an eligible player of either team while off the ground who, on landing, touches a Sideline, a Sideline in Goal, a Dead Line or any object or ground beyond such lines,
4. when the passer has commenced with a forward passing motion with the ball moving forward and, as a result of contact with an opponent, the ball leaves the passer's hand and strikes the ground,
5. while in midair a receiver of either team who has firm control of the ball, but loses possession of the ball when that player's feet or other part of the body hits the ground, with or without contact by any opponent.

[GCn20]

20 minutes ago, bb1 said:

Big difference from last year is we added Stove and Harris after our slow start. Not saying the CDN mafia won't fix it but we don't have the replacements right now.(adding BA and Demski will help but we are not as strong as we were last year) playoff time we will be different.😊

We are 4-0 with 14 games remaining. I am very confident that the holes we are seeing right now will be addressed and we will enter the playoffs firing on all cylinders.