Week 5 - Back to Back Champs at Lions - Week of thread

[Bigblue204]

7 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Lapo does suck but Nichols couldn't throw the ball 30 yards 

it's weird cause in 2019 (Pre injury) he led the league in deep ball completions....which is strange considering he couldn't throw the ball deep...?

[17to85]

15 minutes ago, Booch said:

Originally here he could...he actually threw quite well and had us become a field stretching offence...then something happened...then he got hurt a few times...then he was done

Willy went through the same thing. Went from hitting all over the field to only throwing check downs. Streveler too. I for one blame Lapo. More qbs play with him the more they start only throwing short. 

Of course Nichols get physically broken so that didn't help. And willy got the stuffing beaten out of him. 

[Arnold_Palmer]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Willy went through the same thing. Went from hitting all over the field to only throwing check downs. Streveler too. I for one blame Lapo. More qbs play with him the more they start only throwing short. 

Of course Nichols get physically broken so that didn't help. And willy got the stuffing beaten out of him. 

Willy was hearing footsteps. I blame our atrocious o-line in 2014 for his demise. He was feeling the heat before it was actually coming forcing him to throw the check down. It was sad because he had a legitimately excellent start to his career in Winnipeg. 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

5 minutes ago, Arnold_Palmer said:

Willy was hearing footsteps. I blame our atrocious o-line in 2014 for his demise. He was feeling the heat before it was actually coming forcing him to throw the check down. It was sad because he had a legitimately excellent start to his career in Winnipeg. 

It was after that ticat game here... that was the game where he became broken. 

[Goalie]

37 minutes ago, Arnold_Palmer said:

Un true. Before his knee injury in 2018 he was really good on the deep balls. If anything his problem was his accuracy on the intermediate levels. 

Yes was lucky here then tho? 

22 minutes ago, Arnold_Palmer said:

Willy was hearing footsteps. I blame our atrocious o-line in 2014 for his demise. He was feeling the heat before it was actually coming forcing him to throw the check down. It was sad because he had a legitimately excellent start to his career in Winnipeg. 

Lots of QBs did. Joey elliot was the next big thing at one point. Adam Dimichelle too 

[TrueBlue4ever]

2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

not completely...I know that's the narrative around here...but it isn't quite true. He did run a lot of go routes. However...I think there was a real lack of trust between him and Matt Nichols. I specifically remember 1 game against MTL or maybe TO...it was an eastern team. Anyway Lucky was getting behind the defense regularly and Nichols just wouldn't put the ball up for him. I don't know why...but he was being sent deep and didn't see the ball. 

Lapo didn't let him run many routes on the route tree, I'll say that. He was basically a screen/go guy and that's about it. But even he will admit during the canceled season he really improved his route running skills. So I'm guessing while he was here he just wasn't as polished as he is now. Even in his break out year last year there was a lot of comments around the league about how much he's improved in his route running.

Lucky had 75 targets in 2019, and a staggering amount of them were tosses behind the line of scrimmage (30, with 27 being completed). Another 19 targets were at 7 yards or less (16 completions). LaPo definitely overused the hitch screen to him to the point that teams would sit on it. Having said that, Lucky was unreliable in the longer pass game, and some of the abandonment of him there was due to his lack of success as much as it was just being a decoy. Of 26 targets thrown his way at 8 yards or more downfield, he caught only 9 of them (34.6% conversion rate) and only 1 of 9 targets over 20 yards with 1 TD and 2 of those intercepted (for some context, same year Darvin Adams caught 8 of 20 targets over 20 yards for 2 TDs with one of those being intercepted, but had an additional target where he drew a PI call). So the overall picture is a bit more complex than what is being presented. And Lucky and Brandon Alexander both noted how hard he worked in mini-camps during the 2020 pandemic to improve his route running and how much he improved at becoming a deep threat because of it. So criticism can be spread out between LaPo’s over-reliance on hitch plays to get the ball into his hands, Lucky’s own inability to improve his game beyond that type of play, the Bomber receivers coach for not honing that skill more in 2019, O’Shea for benching him in favour of Bailey instead of letting him develop, and Walters for not re-upping him and giving him another chance. 

[Jesse]

3 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Lucky had 75 targets in 2019, and a staggering amount of them were tosses behind the line of scrimmage (30, with 27 being completed). Another 19 targets were at 7 yards or less (16 completions). LaPo definitely overused the hitch screen to him to the point that teams would sit on it. Having said that, Lucky was unreliable in the longer pass game, and some of the abandonment of him there was due to his lack of success as much as it was just being a decoy. Of 26 targets thrown his way at 8 yards or more downfield, he caught only 9 of them (34.6% conversion rate) and only 1 of 9 targets over 20 yards with 1 TD and 2 of those intercepted (for some context, same year Darvin Adams caught 8 of 20 targets over 20 yards for 2 TDs with one of those being intercepted, but had an additional target where he drew a PI call). So the overall picture is a bit more complex than what is being presented. And Lucky and Brandon Alexander both noted how hard he worked in mini-camps during the 2020 pandemic to improve his route running and how much he improved at becoming a deep threat because of it. So criticism can be spread out between LaPo’s over-reliance on hitch plays to get the ball into his hands, Lucky’s own inability to improve his game beyond that type of play, the Bomber receivers coach for not honing that skill more in 2019, O’Shea for benching him in favour of Bailey instead of letting him develop, and Walters for not re-upping him and giving him another chance. 

All I see is that they gave him one deep shot every other game and we’re shocked it didn’t work out very often.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Jesse

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

I always have time to help educate the ignorant masses. Plus an opportunity to remind people that Lapo sucks is not something to pass on.

 

[Fatty Liver]

36 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Lucky had 75 targets in 2019, and a staggering amount of them were tosses behind the line of scrimmage (30, with 27 being completed). Another 19 targets were at 7 yards or less (16 completions). LaPo definitely overused the hitch screen to him to the point that teams would sit on it. Having said that, Lucky was unreliable in the longer pass game, and some of the abandonment of him there was due to his lack of success as much as it was just being a decoy. Of 26 targets thrown his way at 8 yards or more downfield, he caught only 9 of them (34.6% conversion rate) and only 1 of 9 targets over 20 yards with 1 TD and 2 of those intercepted (for some context, same year Darvin Adams caught 8 of 20 targets over 20 yards for 2 TDs with one of those being intercepted, but had an additional target where he drew a PI call). So the overall picture is a bit more complex than what is being presented. And Lucky and Brandon Alexander both noted how hard he worked in mini-camps during the 2020 pandemic to improve his route running and how much he improved at becoming a deep threat because of it. So criticism can be spread out between LaPo’s over-reliance on hitch plays to get the ball into his hands, Lucky’s own inability to improve his game beyond that type of play, the Bomber receivers coach for not honing that skill more in 2019, O’Shea for benching him in favour of Bailey instead of letting him develop, and Walters for not re-upping him and giving him another chance. 

Lucky is breakable and can't block effectively, what do you want???  Bailey was, and still is a better fit for the Bomber offence.  Good for Lucky, he's one of the few kick return specialists that successfully transitioned to a full-time starting job, but it had to be elsewhere.  Stretching back over time there are hundreds of returners that never made that leap.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Fatty Liver

[Rod Black]

31 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Lucky had 75 targets in 2019, and a staggering amount of them were tosses behind the line of scrimmage (30, with 27 being completed). Another 19 targets were at 7 yards or less (16 completions). LaPo definitely overused the hitch screen to him to the point that teams would sit on it. Having said that, Lucky was unreliable in the longer pass game, and some of the abandonment of him there was due to his lack of success as much as it was just being a decoy. Of 26 targets thrown his way at 8 yards or more downfield, he caught only 9 of them (34.6% conversion rate) and only 1 of 9 targets over 20 yards with 1 TD and 2 of those intercepted (for some context, same year Darvin Adams caught 8 of 20 targets over 20 yards for 2 TDs with one of those being intercepted, but had an additional target where he drew a PI call). So the overall picture is a bit more complex than what is being presented. And Lucky and Brandon Alexander both noted how hard he worked in mini-camps during the 2020 pandemic to improve his route running and how much he improved at becoming a deep threat because of it. So criticism can be spread out between LaPo’s over-reliance on hitch plays to get the ball into his hands, Lucky’s own inability to improve his game beyond that type of play, the Bomber receivers coach for not honing that skill more in 2019, O’Shea for benching him in favour of Bailey instead of letting him develop, and Walters for not re-upping him and giving him another chance. 

Once the season starts, do players really have much time to improve their own skills or is regular season practice primarily for plays, schemes - game prep? 

[Booch]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Lucky had 75 targets in 2019, and a staggering amount of them were tosses behind the line of scrimmage (30, with 27 being completed). Another 19 targets were at 7 yards or less (16 completions). LaPo definitely overused the hitch screen to him to the point that teams would sit on it. Having said that, Lucky was unreliable in the longer pass game, and some of the abandonment of him there was due to his lack of success as much as it was just being a decoy. Of 26 targets thrown his way at 8 yards or more downfield, he caught only 9 of them (34.6% conversion rate) and only 1 of 9 targets over 20 yards with 1 TD and 2 of those intercepted (for some context, same year Darvin Adams caught 8 of 20 targets over 20 yards for 2 TDs with one of those being intercepted, but had an additional target where he drew a PI call). So the overall picture is a bit more complex than what is being presented. And Lucky and Brandon Alexander both noted how hard he worked in mini-camps during the 2020 pandemic to improve his route running and how much he improved at becoming a deep threat because of it. So criticism can be spread out between LaPo’s over-reliance on hitch plays to get the ball into his hands, Lucky’s own inability to improve his game beyond that type of play, the Bomber receivers coach for not honing that skill more in 2019, O’Shea for benching him in favour of Bailey instead of letting him develop, and Walters for not re-upping him and giving him another chance. 

decieving numbers on the long tho, as I can clearly recall Nichols trying to hit him and missing badly....it wasnt a case of Lucky being open, or dropping the ball, or losing contested battles...they were flat out misses, go back and watch the games...plain as day

[GCn20]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Willy went through the same thing. Went from hitting all over the field to only throwing check downs. Streveler too. I for one blame Lapo. More qbs play with him the more they start only throwing short. 

Of course Nichols get physically broken so that didn't help. And willy got the stuffing beaten out of him. 

Why would you blame Lapo for Willy? He wasn't even here.

1 hour ago, Jesse said:

All I see is that they gave him one deep shot every other game and we’re shocked it didn’t work out very often.

He and Nichols just had zero on-field chemistry together. They went to Lucky a few times deep early and Nichols just couldn't locate the ball to him so they abandoned it. I would not blame Lapo for that, nor would I blame the players, just a matter of they couldn't get on the same page.

1 hour ago, Fatty Liver said:

Lucky is breakable and can't block effectively, what do you want???  Bailey was, and still is a better fit for the Bomber offence.  Good for Lucky, he's one of the few kick return specialists that successfully transitioned to a full-time starting job, but it had to be elsewhere.  Stretching back over time there are hundreds of returners that never made that leap.

For sure. Lucky and Nichols just didn't jive together. Would have loved to have seen what Lucky and Zac might have done.

[GCn20]

16 minutes ago, Booch said:

decieving numbers on the long tho, as I can clearly recall Nichols trying to hit him and missing badly....it wasnt a case of Lucky being open, or dropping the ball, or losing contested battles...they were flat out misses, go back and watch the games...plain as day

That is my recollection as well. Overthrowing him, underthrowing him, and just not being in the groove together.

[bigg jay]

4 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Why would you blame Lapo for Willy? He wasn't even here.

He and Nichols just had zero on-field chemistry together. They went to Lucky a few times deep early and Nichols just couldn't locate the ball to him so they abandoned it. I would not blame Lapo for that, nor would I blame the players, just a matter of they couldn't get on the same page.

Lapo was the OC during Willy's last season (2016) with us.

[Booch]

1 minute ago, bigg jay said:

Lapo was the OC during Willy's last season (2016) with us.

maybe he is the QB wrecker...Masoli too is looking like he is regressing now...be interesting to see what he does this weekend....I think the SSK db's are very suspect, so they should be able to pick em apart on the intermediate to medium range throws..short and underneath is not a good gameplan if the SSK linebackers are in a groove....and thats Lapo bread and butter and sure that SSK has planned for that all week....break the mold and u will exploit them

[TrueBlue4ever]

2 hours ago, Booch said:

decieving numbers on the long tho, as I can clearly recall Nichols trying to hit him and missing badly....it wasnt a case of Lucky being open, or dropping the ball, or losing contested battles...they were flat out misses, go back and watch the games...plain as day

That’s the thing about the “eye test” from games 3 years ago, it will be just as (if not more) deceiving than the raw data, even if those numbers can be “spun”. I remember Ed Tait commenting that for all his speed, Lucky did not get much separation from defenders on downfield routes. But everyone will remember more that which feeds their confirmation bias (like when you buy a new car and suddenly it seems like there are tons like yours when before you never saw any - they were always there, but your mind was not focussed on looking or them). If you think LaPo muzzled him, all you will remember is nothing but hitch screens and Nichols bad aim, when Lucky himself admitted that it took the 2020 year off for him to learn how to run better routes and transform his game. I just provided some statistical data about how many long targets he had and how ineffective he was at converting them as a counterpoint to the idea that LaPo “refused to use him past the line of scrimmage”.

[Goalie]

Lucky is lucky he's not playing in lapos O still. 

[17to85]

20 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

the idea that LaPo “refused to use him past the line of scrimmage”.

It's not that,  it's that Lapo wanted him to do things dressler and demski did when the guy clearly isn't that kind of player. 

[Brandon]

21 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's not that,  it's that Lapo wanted him to do things dressler and demski did when the guy clearly isn't that kind of player. 

Not true,   he did run deep but as I said a million times before... Nichols never looked deep and defaulted to a dink and dunk.   Dude was wide open many times.     Why do you think last season Lawler was able to pile up all those yards ?  Cuz Zach actually keeps his eyes down the field and is able to move around a bit and throw on the run.  

[TrueBlue4ever]

17 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's not that,  it's that Lapo wanted him to do things dressler and demski did when the guy clearly isn't that kind of player. 

I think you are now fixating on the fly sweeps that Dressler and Demski ran as a comparable, which Whitehead also did with a good bit of success. But remember that D and D also ran deep patterns and converted with more success than Lucky did. The goal was to get the ball into Lucky’s hands and let his quick acceleration make people miss. Making him a punt returner and giving him quick easy short passes have him the touches to exploit his skills, because he was not succeeding at getting the ball in his hands consistently on the mid or long range plays.   

In theory, Janarion Grant should be the same “kind of player” as Whitehead - great early acceleration and vision to find holes in traffic from a smaller player who could be a deep threat given his speed. But we haven’t seen him morph into anything other than a  jet sweep option, so is Buck Pierce mis-using him or does he just not have the skill set (yet?) to be that kind of player? Maybe there is more to bring a deep threat than just sprinting down the field faster than everyone else on every play. Lucky would seem to agree given his comments about how he needed to learn route running. He did not have it in his first year with the Bombers, O’Shea chose to bench him in favour of a more gritty Bailey, and Walters opted not to re-sign him. 

[17to85]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

Not true,   he did run deep but as I said a million times before... Nichols never looked deep and defaulted to a dink and dunk.   Dude was wide open many times.     Why do you think last season Lawler was able to pile up all those yards ?  Cuz Zach actually keeps his eyes down the field and is able to move around a bit and throw on the run.  

And dressler and demski ran deep a bunch too. It's all about how lapo loves guys who are big yac guys. It's why demski and Harris were such good fits and why dressler was a good fit. He keeps looking for those guys. 

I don't know why people willfully blind themselves to the stuff lapo has been doing in this league for 2 decades.

[Noeller]

 

 

[JCon]

8 on the D Line. Rourke better be ready to run, cause they'll just blitz all game long. 

[Booch]

Yup like the addition of the extra dline guy again...hope to see an expanded role for McRae too...be interesting matchup for sure

[Noeller]