Congrats to the GOAT! Harris breaks 10k yards

[TrueBlue4ever]

5 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Is he worth a second round draft pick?

Given my opinion of the quality and utility of the CFL draft in general, sure. 

[Mark F]

3 hours ago, Mr. Perfect said:

Oliveria averaged 4.8 yards a carry last game on 15 carries.

second half he got it going... broke tackles, also I think the o line was pushing the d backwards pretty well

and crunched it out on ground at end of game.

wonder if harris no helmet carries means he is a mike sellers fan.. just realized... same number, same running style.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Mark F

[Geebrr]

There is another thread to talk about our current RBs. 
 

 

[Stickem]

Sellers 33.....what a monster......a run-a-way train when he got going....Green and white littered everywhere as the old clip shows.....a run the riders never forgot...

[SpeedFlex27]

13 hours ago, Mr. Perfect said:

Oliveria averaged 4.8 yards a carry last game on 15 carries. That's a very solid average. We should have pounded the rock more (and with Johnny too) given the passing game and time of possession were hurting last game against Edmonton.

It wasn't good when you consider the defense they played against. Probably the worst in the CFL. Do you really think Oliveira will even be a factor vs the Stamps who have a very good front 7?

[Mr. Perfect]

9 hours ago, Geebrr said:

There is another thread to talk about our current RBs. 
 

 

There is another thread to talk about non back to back champs news.

[JuranBoldenRules]

On 2022-07-26 at 7:33 AM, bearpants said:

If that's your plan... what is your proposal for adjusting the ratio?... a third starter on D?... starting a rookie rifles WR?.... another Canadian on the O-line?

Based on the options... playing Brady/Johnny at RB is the best bet for the ratio.

Wouldn’t be difficult at all.  We have an import back on the roster already.  Utilization has been pretty bad.  We had two imports on O last week who played less than 10 snaps combined while our kick returner was out there all night.

Sub in import back, sub out import receiver.  Pretty simple.  Our need is more on the Canadian side right now but is basically alleviated when Demski comes back.  Yeah Olivieira and Augustine can be role players, although Augustine doesn’t seem very durable as a runner or pass protector based on the looks we’ve had.  Looked a lot better when Streveler was QB and we weren’t doing drop back passing much.

[Jesse]

21 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Wouldn’t be difficult at all.  We have an import back on the roster already.  Utilization has been pretty bad.  We had two imports on O last week who played less than 10 snaps combined while our kick returner was out there all night.

Sub in import back, sub out import receiver.  Pretty simple.  Our need is more on the Canadian side right now but is basically alleviated when Demski comes back.  Yeah Olivieira and Augustine can be role players, although Augustine doesn’t seem very durable as a runner or pass protector based on the looks we’ve had.  Looked a lot better when Streveler was QB and we weren’t doing drop back passing much.

Worst case, you could throw Johnny outside. I don't know why we're forcing a square peg in a round hole when it come to the run game.

[Tracker]

On 2022-07-25 at 10:02 PM, Noeller said:

I remember the exact same things being said last year about our kicking game. And they figured it out. They'll figure this out too. 

Agreed. The team has enough Canadian starters 9or maybe used to have) that plugging an import in as the running back should be doable. Surely to goodness, Goveia, McManus and Co ought to be able to find a beast of a runner.

[TrueBlue4ever]

I wonder if part of the running issue is Buck’s playbook? He seems to be calling the plays as if he still has Andrew Harris to run up the middle and drag tacklers on every play.

One thing I feel LaPolice did well was adapt the playbook to suit the talents of his players, even if it sacrificed explosive big plays for ball control, low turnovers, and more wins with less gaudy stats as a result. Have a QB like Khari Jones and a receiver like Stegall? Set up deep isolation routes to get Milt one on one where he can dominate. Got a scat back like Roberts who can’t be tackled easily? Run toss plays to get him in space outside the tackles where he can make people miss. Get a less mobile QB in Nichols who can’t scramble much but can run through his progessions rapidly? Develop a quick read, short pass game. Get a dual threat back in Harris with a strong o-line and solid blocking receivers? Centre an offence around his running and catching ability and use him extensively to win the time of possession battle and keep the big play, heavy rotation defence fresh. Got a bruising option-style QB in Streveler whose passing skills are a bit raw? Incorporate him as a running option with enough passing (or receiving) options to keep defences off-balance. Got a burner with great speed but unpolished route running like Lucky Whitehead in his rookie year? Design plays to get the ball in his hands as fast as possible and let his natural quickness and vision take over.

I can see where Oliviera might physically be seen as fitting the Harris mould, but he is not (yet) reading and hitting the holes as fast as Harris did, and he is not often surviving first contact. And Augustine in very limited use has shown good effectiveness on toss plays outside the tackles, but Buck seems hesitant to call those plays more than once a game of that. I am in the “let Augustine get more reps” camp, but give him a playbook that gives him the best chance to succeed. And maybe getting Oliviera outside the pile might allow him the chance to make moves in open space with more time rather than needing that one key, one second opening up the middle to make the play work. I’d like to see some more varied run calls with the existing personnel we have now before we abandon them for new blood. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Mr. Perfect]

Great interview with Derek Taylor on Winnipeg Sports Talk yesterday. As many probably recall, DT often did "deep dive" type stats when he was with TSN. In his tracking this year, and looking back at last year he discovered the following:

Percentage of runs that Bomber running backs were hit in the backfield in 2021: 13 percent

Going into the Edmonton game, Bomber running backs have been hit in the backfield 31 percent of the time.

I'm sorry, but that's a staggering difference - so it's not like our current running backs have forgotten over an off-season how to run the ball. Both showed reasonably well last season when Andrew Harris was fat/out of shape and injury prone. The loss of Couture and Desjarlais plays a huge part as well, and absolutely there's been times when Augustine and Oliveria have missed open lanes - I've yelled at my TV this year when it's happened. However, to place run game struggles solely on them just isn't an accurate train of thought whatsoever, and the figures by DT proves that.

[Geebrr]

Andrew Harris has done more in 2 games this year than our RBs combined all year.

GOAT

[17to85]

7 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

One thing I feel LaPolice did well was adapt the playbook to suit the talents of his players,

Wrong.

[bearpants]

7 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I wonder if part of the running issue is Buck’s playbook? He seems to be calling the plays as if he still has Andrew Harris to run up the middle and drag tacklers on every play.

One thing I feel LaPolice did well was adapt the playbook to suit the talents of his players, even if it sacrificed explosive big plays for ball control, low turnovers, and more wins with less gaudy stats as a result. Have a QB like Khari Jones and a receiver like Stegall? Set up deep isolation routes to get Milt one on one where he can dominate. Got a scat back like Roberts who can’t be tackled easily? Run toss plays to get him in space outside the tackles where he can make people miss. Get a less mobile QB in Nichols who can’t scramble much but can run through his progessions rapidly? Develop a quick read, short pass game. Get a dual threat back in Harris with a strong o-line and solid blocking receivers? Centre an offence around his running and catching ability and use him extensively to win the time of possession battle and keep the big play, heavy rotation defence fresh. Got a bruising option-style QB in Streveler whose passing skills are a bit raw? Incorporate him as a running option with enough passing (or receiving) options to keep defences off-balance. Got a burner with great speed but unpolished route running like Lucky Whitehead in his rookie year? Design plays to get the ball in his hands as fast as possible and let his natural quickness and vision take over.

I can see where Oliviera might physically be seen as fitting the Harris mould, but he is not (yet) reading and hitting the holes as fast as Harris did, and he is not often surviving first contact. And Augustine in very limited use has shown good effectiveness on toss plays outside the tackles, but Buck seems hesitant to call those plays more than once a game of that. I am in the “let Augustine get more reps” camp, but give him a playbook that gives him the best chance to succeed. And maybe getting Oliviera outside the pile might allow him the chance to make moves in open space with more time rather than needing that one key, one second opening up the middle to make the play work. I’d like to see some more varied run calls with the existing personnel we have now before we abandon them for new blood. 

Praise for LaPo?.... surely this won't cause a stir 😁

[bearpants]

On 2022-07-27 at 8:42 AM, JuranBoldenRules said:

Wouldn’t be difficult at all.  We have an import back on the roster already.  Utilization has been pretty bad.  We had two imports on O last week who played less than 10 snaps combined while our kick returner was out there all night.

Sub in import back, sub out import receiver.  Pretty simple.  Our need is more on the Canadian side right now but is basically alleviated when Demski comes back.  Yeah Olivieira and Augustine can be role players, although Augustine doesn’t seem very durable as a runner or pass protector based on the looks we’ve had.  Looked a lot better when Streveler was QB and we weren’t doing drop back passing much.

I agree with you on that... it just sounds like Speed is talking about a full on change to the starters... not just different players in sub-packages

[Booch]

5 hours ago, Mr. Perfect said:

Great interview with Derek Taylor on Winnipeg Sports Talk yesterday. As many probably recall, DT often did "deep dive" type stats when he was with TSN. In his tracking this year, and looking back at last year he discovered the following:

Percentage of runs that Bomber running backs were hit in the backfield in 2021: 13 percent

Going into the Edmonton game, Bomber running backs have been hit in the backfield 31 percent of the time.

I'm sorry, but that's a staggering difference - so it's not like our current running backs have forgotten over an off-season how to run the ball. Both showed reasonably well last season when Andrew Harris was fat/out of shape and injury prone. The loss of Couture and Desjarlais plays a huge part as well, and absolutely there's been times when Augustine and Oliveria have missed open lanes - I've yelled at my TV this year when it's happened. However, to place run game struggles solely on them just isn't an accurate train of thought whatsoever, and the figures by DT proves that.

saw that....but also not soley on the oline...it takes just a half second of tentative running to cause that as well....and thats been the issue more than anything in my opinion...over thinking...if u noticed after the T.O game our backs in B.C hit holes full speed and hard...no diddlin around, and prob from getting a refresher up close look at AH and how he hit holes....and they need to continue that....we miss Couture tho 100 percent, as our guy now...although decent gets over powered a lot...and has lost control for run game causing the trouble in the middle...and our guards if overcompensating a wee bit for it, are compromising their role...and well u see the results

[JuranBoldenRules]

4 hours ago, bearpants said:

I agree with you on that... it just sounds like Speed is talking about a full on change to the starters... not just different players in sub-packages

The whole "starters" thing is meaningless.  There's like a half dozen guys on any team who aren't playing on O or D and half of them are QB's or kickers.

12 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I wonder if part of the running issue is Buck’s playbook? He seems to be calling the plays as if he still has Andrew Harris to run up the middle and drag tacklers on every play.

One thing I feel LaPolice did well was adapt the playbook to suit the talents of his players, even if it sacrificed explosive big plays for ball control, low turnovers, and more wins with less gaudy stats as a result. Have a QB like Khari Jones and a receiver like Stegall? Set up deep isolation routes to get Milt one on one where he can dominate. Got a scat back like Roberts who can’t be tackled easily? Run toss plays to get him in space outside the tackles where he can make people miss. Get a less mobile QB in Nichols who can’t scramble much but can run through his progessions rapidly? Develop a quick read, short pass game. Get a dual threat back in Harris with a strong o-line and solid blocking receivers? Centre an offence around his running and catching ability and use him extensively to win the time of possession battle and keep the big play, heavy rotation defence fresh. Got a bruising option-style QB in Streveler whose passing skills are a bit raw? Incorporate him as a running option with enough passing (or receiving) options to keep defences off-balance. Got a burner with great speed but unpolished route running like Lucky Whitehead in his rookie year? Design plays to get the ball in his hands as fast as possible and let his natural quickness and vision take over.

I can see where Oliviera might physically be seen as fitting the Harris mould, but he is not (yet) reading and hitting the holes as fast as Harris did, and he is not often surviving first contact. And Augustine in very limited use has shown good effectiveness on toss plays outside the tackles, but Buck seems hesitant to call those plays more than once a game of that. I am in the “let Augustine get more reps” camp, but give him a playbook that gives him the best chance to succeed. And maybe getting Oliviera outside the pile might allow him the chance to make moves in open space with more time rather than needing that one key, one second opening up the middle to make the play work. I’d like to see some more varied run calls with the existing personnel we have now before we abandon them for new blood. 

Lapo certainly couldn't scheme for the OL he had in 02-03 and that ended Khari's career prematurely.  Get the ball to Stegall isn't exactly genius stuff.

19 was the first year that the Bombers were above average in Red Zone efficiency with Lapo.  Give him credit for that and using Streveler to facilitate that.  Other than that his last tenure here was a horror show buttressed by Medlock's range, far above average special teams flipping the field and Richie Hall's defense turning the ball over at historic levels.  The problem was that Nichols couldn't run quick game.  The offense was hollowed out to Harris, both ground and air and deep shots.  In 17 and 18 Harris touched the ball almost half of offensive plays the Bombers ran.  Nichols couldn't move the ball and had no midrange game.  You can pretty clearly see the difference with a QB like Collaros who can pass.

Edited July 28, 2022 by JuranBoldenRules

[rebusrankin]

Haven't both Khari and Milt stated that they had such good chemistry that they often adlibbed plays, often to great success?

Interesting stat on how many times our backs have been hit in the backfield. How much is RB hesistation? How much is the OL loss of Couture and Desjarlais? How much of it is Bryant/Yoshi/Neuf playing nicked?

[Mike]

The thing I don’t get with the Oliviera/Augustine comparison re: their stats and performance is that so many people seem to ignore they are stylistically two different backs being asked to do two different things.

Johnny isn’t asked to get 3 yards. He isn’t asked to be in there to pass block. He’s a home run hitter and Brady is asked to slap singles and doubles.

[Geebrr]

It is interesting that the holes have suddenly closed up now that Harris is gone. 
 

Wonder if the two are correlated? He seems to just either read holes better or just make his own path. 
 

Our current RBs don’t really do either and are not really bringing anything to the table.

 

Not even factoring in how much better Harris is at picking up blocks and receiving. 

[Bigblue204]

4 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

It is interesting that the holes have suddenly closed up now that Harris is gone. (As well as 2 Olinemen)
 

Wonder if the two are correlated? He seems to just either read holes better or just make his own path. 
 

Our current RBs don’t really do either and are not really bringing anything to the table.

 

Not even factoring in how much better Harris is at picking up blocks and receiving. 

Harris being gone hurts for sure. But the difference in Oline play is a much bigger factor.

[17to85]

6 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Harris being gone hurts for sure. But the difference in Oline play is a much bigger factor.

I'd add in Tui Eli as well. At very least for the jumbo stuff. Makes a huge difference to lose 2/3s of your interior and the extra guy as well.

[Geebrr]

18 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Harris being gone hurts for sure. But the difference in Oline play is a much bigger factor.

That’s fine, but neither one of these guys has shown consistently what Harris brings even at age 35.

 

[Jesse]

42 minutes ago, Mike said:

The thing I don’t get with the Oliviera/Augustine comparison re: their stats and performance is that so many people seem to ignore they are stylistically two different backs being asked to do two different things.

Johnny isn’t asked to get 3 yards. He isn’t asked to be in there to pass block. He’s a home run hitter and Brady is asked to slap singles and doubles.

I see Brady for what he's been asked to do....he's not doing it well.

To that end, I would like to see Johnny do more of his thing. Especially against Calgary.

[Bigblue204]

26 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

That’s fine, but neither one of these guys has shown consistently what Harris brings even at age 35.

 

It's hard to show anything when you're getting smacked as soon as you get the ball.