Kicking Discussion

[Wideleft]

On 2022-08-13 at 11:58 AM, Noeller said:

Heard about his mouthing off on a podcast the other day and I laughed. As if he has anything to say to anyone.... 

He's not wrong about that kick though.  Didn't appear to even make it half way through the end zone.

Again - I'm just talking about that specific kick. 

[bearpants]

On 2022-08-13 at 10:53 AM, Noeller said:

Bluto knows what's up.... 

 

 

I'm impressed Walby managed to spell MARC LIEGGHIO's first AND last name wrong in the same tweet...

[Tracker]

On 2022-08-14 at 3:01 PM, do or die said:

In the first half....

Then, it doesn't count, does it?

[SpeedFlex27]

On 2022-08-13 at 1:08 PM, Zach Schnitzer said:

Oh I didn’t notice the snap was wide!!!! Did anyone else see that??

Yeah, I saw something amiss with that snap.

[Arnold_Palmer]

On 2022-08-15 at 11:33 AM, bearpants said:

I'm impressed Walby managed to spell MARC LIEGGHIO's first AND last name wrong in the same tweet...

A little off the mark with that one..

[TrueBlue4ever]

So, thinking about the end of regulation, and wondering why this was not discussed more. Should O’Shea have called for a punt instead? Aside from the “who wants to win that way?” argument, (and is it really a valid argument?) should O’Shea take any heat for not taking the best option to win? Remember Ken Miller trying this and the punter couldn’t kick it through the end zone, but also remember Lui Passaglia deliberately shanking a field goal out the side of the end zone to win a game in Winnipeg on the last play by one point. Is it a cheap way to win, or smart tactics if the rules allow it? Thoughts? (and this is not just entirely 20/20 hindsight - I did say to my wife in the stands just before the kick “why don’t they just punt for the single?” -did no one else think this?)

Edited August 17, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[GCn20]

9 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

So, thinking about the end of regulation, and wondering why this was not discussed more. Should O’Shea have called for a punt instead? Aside from the “who wants to win that way?” argument, (and is it really a valid argument?) should O’Shea take any heat for not taking the best option to win? Remember Ken Miller trying this and the punter couldn’t kick it through the end zone, but also remember Lui Passaglia deliberately shanking a field goal out the side of the end zone to win a game in Winnipeg on the last play by one point. Is it a cheap way to win, or smart tactics of the rules allow it? Thoughts? (and this is not just entirely 20/20 hindsight - I did say to my wife in the stands just before the kick “why don’t they just punt for the single?” -did no one else think this?)

The punt would have had to be a boomer. 55 yards in the air to be sure it wasn't fielded. Not exactly a gimme, in fact pretty unlikely. Not sure why people are considering this a better option than a 32 yard FG.

[Noeller]

 You have to show faith in your 90% kicker to make a 32 yarder. There's absolutely no reason not to. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

33 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The punt would have had to be a boomer. 55 yards in the air to be sure it wasn't fielded. Not exactly a gimme, in fact pretty unlikely. Not sure why people are considering this a better option than a 32 yard FG.

To be a 32 yard field goal, ball would be on the 25 yard line. Punt distance is measured from the line of scrimmage, not from where the punter kicks it, so Liegghio’s 47 yard average means he is actually kicking the ball another 10 yards or so from where he stands. It was 45 yards from the line of scrimmage to the back of the end zone, and 26 yards (plus whatever angle distance) to kick it out of bounds in the end zone to the side. 26 yard punt should be pretty automatic. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

25 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 You have to show faith in your 90% kicker to make a 32 yarder. There's absolutely no reason not to. 

But why do you “have to show faith?” Show faith In his ability to punt for the game winning single. It’s like those who argued that running the clock to zero in the last minute was bad because it showed no faith in the offence to go for the TD by throwing the ball and potentially leaving time on the clock. Should the coach not tactically play the best odds to win the game? Was the punt not the better tactical play odds-wise? Is it just the optics of “winning cheap”? And should it matter?

I can understand the idea that it could psychologically affect a kicker if his coach doesn’t trust him to kick a 32 yard game winner, but O’Shea can totally frame it as “yes we trust him, which is why we put him out to kick an important 45 yarder earlier rather than punt, but this was about getting the point we need to win. If we trailed by 1 or 2, I make a different decision”. And how is Liegghio’s psyche now that he has missed those 2 kicks? Which is more damaging to his confidence? Just asking, appreciate the counter-arguments from you and would love you to expand if you want to. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Fatty Liver]

27 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 You have to show faith in your 90% kicker to make a 32 yarder. There's absolutely no reason not to. 

Well now we have a legitimate reason to doubt our faith.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Fatty Liver said:

Well now we have a legitimate reason to doubt our faith.

A single swallow does not mean it is spring. And yes, I am referring to a bird.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Tracker

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

But why do you “have to show faith?”

Because it's a routine play from a routine distance and your guy is kicking 90%. 

You don't over think things in that situation.  They played the entire last few plays to kick the field goal. All it came down to was he flat out missed. Nothing more. If he was that much of a bag of nerves on a straight forward field goal what might have happened trying to get cute on a punt?

[Fatty Liver]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Because it's a routine play from a routine distance and your guy is kicking 90%. 

You don't over think things in that situation.  They played the entire last few plays to kick the field goal. All it came down to was he flat out missed. Nothing more. If he was that much of a bag of nerves on a straight forward field goal what might have happened trying to get cute on a punt?

It'll be interesting to see if Collaros changes tactics and goes hard for the TD if the same scenario comes up again.  I can't recall another time when he played for the F.G..

[TrueBlue4ever]

38 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

It'll be interesting to see if Collaros changes tactics and goes hard for the TD if the same scenario comes up again.  I can't recall another time when he played for the F.G..

The first game of the year against Ottawa. Brown marched them down to the 21 with passing then 2 running plays to burn the clock and kick the field goal. So not Collaros himself but the team played for the FG, I imagine Zach would have run the same plays if he was in.

[bearpants]

Some people are waaaay over-analyzing how this game ended... the Bombers did everything right and Liegghio just missed the kick... that's all... hopefully he gets another shot at a game winning kick in the regular season...  that way, either he redeems himself or we know we need kicking insurance for the playoffs.

[TrueBlue4ever]

Question: What is easiest? (A) to punt a ball 26 yards for a single point out the side of the end zone (b)  kick a 32 yard field goal, (c) punt a ball 45 yards through the back of the end zone for a single (d) kick the ball off a tee from 52 yards through the end zone for a single (e) kick the ball off a tee 33 yards out the side of the end zone for a single point (f) punt or kick it into the end zone and let your cover team pin the returner for the single point (g) go for the touchdown? What gives us the best chance of winning, and should anything else matter beyond that (like how it looks, what it says psychologically)?

[Tracker]

7 hours ago, bearpants said:

Some people are waaaay over-analyzing how this game ended... the Bombers did everything right and Liegghio just missed the kick... that's all... hopefully he gets another shot at a game winning kick in the regular season...  that way, either he redeems himself or we know we need kicking insurance for the playoffs.

Uh, no. Bombers were struggling right from the kickoff and only Collaros' stellar usual performance kept them in the game. The ice was cracking throughout the game and it finally gave way on Liegghio's  missed kicks. 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

7 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Question: What is easiest? (A) to punt a ball 26 yards for a single point out the side of the end zone (b)  kick a 32 yard field goal, (c) punt a ball 45 yards through the back of the end zone for a single (d) kick the ball off a tee from 52 yards through the end zone for a single (e) kick the ball off a tee 33 yards out the side of the end zone for a single point (f) punt or kick it into the end zone and let your cover team pin the returner for the single point (g) go for the touchdown? What gives us the best chance of winning, and should anything else matter beyond that (like how it looks, what it says psychologically)?

Did the team practice any of the stuff you mentioned other than the FGs?

In many of those situations you mentioned- all the returner has to do is punt it back out.

 

Go with what you know. Once you start introducing all these new factors in, your success rate starts to drop.

 

If he made the kick (either between the uprights or out the end) would we even be entertaining any of these other options?

[TrueBlue4ever]

12 minutes ago, Wanna-B-Fanboy said:

Did the team practice any of the stuff you mentioned other than the FGs?

In many of those situations you mentioned- all the returner has to do is punt it back out.

 

Go with what you know. Once you start introducing all these new factors in, your success rate starts to drop.

 

If he made the kick (either between the uprights or out the end) would we even be entertaining any of these other options?

Yes, Liegghio practices punting and aiming for the sidelines a lot too. And there are hundreds of “what ifs” in a game that would change the discussion, but the hard reality is that we didn’t make the kick, which is why we should entertain these other options, and maybe entertained them before the miss. Punting for the single point seems like the easiest way to score from that close in, the returner shouldn’t even have a chance to touch the ball given the distance. Other than the football “code” that it looks like a cheap way to win, what stops them from taking the easiest route to winning?

Edited August 18, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[Wideleft]

10 minutes ago, Wanna-B-Fanboy said:

Did the team practice any of the stuff you mentioned other than the FGs?

In many of those situations you mentioned- all the returner has to do is punt it back out.

 

Go with what you know. Once you start introducing all these new factors in, your success rate starts to drop.

 

If he made the kick (either between the uprights or out the end) would we even be entertaining any of these other options?

And if he missed the field goal through the end zone with no time left, he wouldn't have missed the OT field goal.  I know - I'm Captain Obvious...

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

33 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Yes, Liegghio practices punting and aiming for the sidelines a lot too. And there are hundreds of “what ifs” in a game that would change the discussion, but the hard reality is that we didn’t make the kick, which is why we should entertain these other options, and maybe entertained them before the miss. Punting for the single point seems like the easiest way to score from that close in, the returner shouldn’t even have a chance to touch the ball given the distance. Other than the football “code” that it looks like a cheap way to win, what stops them from taking the easiest route to winning?

Kick off... the opponent still lines up on the LoS... does the ball have to placed on the tee at the Los? 

I am not talking about cheap looking - I think that you go with what you practice and what is easiest- which is a 90% field goal success rate. I dont think any other choice yiu put up, has that high of a success rate.

[JuranBoldenRules]

8 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Question: What is easiest? (A) to punt a ball 26 yards for a single point out the side of the end zone (b)  kick a 32 yard field goal, (c) punt a ball 45 yards through the back of the end zone for a single (d) kick the ball off a tee from 52 yards through the end zone for a single (e) kick the ball off a tee 33 yards out the side of the end zone for a single point (f) punt or kick it into the end zone and let your cover team pin the returner for the single point (g) go for the touchdown? What gives us the best chance of winning, and should anything else matter beyond that (like how it looks, what it says psychologically)?

Punt is easiest for the defense to block, especially when they give no fucks about setting up a return.

If you want to kick it out of the side of the endzone you do it off the tee.  Prefontaine used to do this all the time as a kind of fake because he was a terrible placekicker, you can coffin corner a placekick and the ball is dead where it goes out of bounds, or you can drop it in the corner bouncing and let a returner figure it out.  Anyways in this case you want it to go out.

Like someone else said this all comes down to having practiced this or not.

The other option would be to run a play with some time left and have a receiver kick it through.  Throw a quick pass underneath, guy turns and kicks.  Usually see that if it's a bit deeper than you'd be comfortable FG range, or off a kickoff return (Calgary tried it down 41-40 last week after BC hit the go-ahead FG).

 

Really though should be able to hit a 32 yard FG....and if it's wide hammer it high and deep, cover it to trap the returner if it doesn't get past the touch line.

51 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Yes, Liegghio practices punting and aiming for the sidelines a lot too. And there are hundreds of “what ifs” in a game that would change the discussion, but the hard reality is that we didn’t make the kick, which is why we should entertain these other options, and maybe entertained them before the miss. Punting for the single point seems like the easiest way to score from that close in, the returner shouldn’t even have a chance to touch the ball given the distance. Other than the football “code” that it looks like a cheap way to win, what stops them from taking the easiest route to winning?

Easiest way to win would have been for the O to keep playing instead of wasting six snaps to bleed clock and set up a FG attempt....IMO.

[17to85]

8 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Question: What is easiest? (A) to punt a ball 26 yards for a single point out the side of the end zone (b)  kick a 32 yard field goal, (c) punt a ball 45 yards through the back of the end zone for a single (d) kick the ball off a tee from 52 yards through the end zone for a single (e) kick the ball off a tee 33 yards out the side of the end zone for a single point (f) punt or kick it into the end zone and let your cover team pin the returner for the single point (g) go for the touchdown? What gives us the best chance of winning, and should anything else matter beyond that (like how it looks, what it says psychologically)?

you can shank a kick off a tee or a punt just as easily as you can a field goal try. That's all that happened here. Guy whiffed on the kick. If they're tried to punt it through and he'd shanked it wouldn't the questions be more serious about why not just try the easy field goal? 

 

There's nothing much to say other than the kicker missed a kick he should make and he missed it because he completely mishit the ball. 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

he missed it because he completely mishit the ball. 

That has to be the UGLIEST kick I have ever witnessed in pro sports... and would rank in the top 10 of school yard pick up ball...