NHL Owner Subsidies

[SpeedFlex27]

9 hours ago, Wideleft said:

I hate the True North chant.  Don't understand why so many people are shouting support for extremely wealthy people who are taking their hard-earned money to watch a very mediocre hockey team.

Gets even worse when you hear it at your kids' science fair awards.

Without these extremely wealthy people who take peoples hard earned money we wouldn't have an NHL team now, would we? I never understood the hatred for people who were wealthy.  

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Without these extremely wealthy people who take peoples hard earned money we wouldn't have an NHL team now, would we? I never understood the hatred for people who were wealthy.  

Millionaire good billionaire bad. Yeah it’s a silly sentiment. 
 I don’t like hockey or care for the jets, I think the jets only impact on the bombers is negative. But I respect true north for making their franchise work, I know it wasn’t easy early on especially getting the nhl on board. 

[Wideleft]

4 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Without these extremely wealthy people who take peoples hard earned money we wouldn't have an NHL team now, would we? I never understood the hatred for people who were wealthy.  

Without huge tax breaks and gifted lottery revenue, these extremely wealthy people would not have returned the team to Winnipeg.

 

The city and province are expected to provide True North Sports & Entertainment with $13.4 million worth of subsidies in 2015, according to city budget documents, as well as the terms of the revenue-sharing deal struck between the province and the Shark Club, True North’s gaming centre at Cityplace mall.

The largest government-enabled source of cash for the Winnipeg Jets is a $6.79-million projected rebate of the 10 per cent city tax levied on events held at the MTS Centre. This refund is up $390,000 from 2015, thanks to increased revenue projections for the arena in 2016.

True North is also in line to receive a city business-tax refund worth $232,000 as well as a break on city and provincial property taxes expected in the vicinity of $890,000. For tax-portioning purposes, provincial legislation allows the MTS Centre to be treated as recreational space, as opposed to commercial land.

True North is also expected to receive an estimated $5.49 million worth of revenue from 140 gaming machines at the Shark Club. Under the terms of the deal between True North and Manitoba Liquor & Lotteries, if the Shark Club generates less than $6.1 million a year in gaming revenue, True North gets to keep 90 per cent of the house, which works out to a maximum of $5.49 million.

If the revenue is somewhere between $6.1 million and $7.3 million, True North receives a flat payout of $5.5 million. And if the machines generate more than $7.3 million, True North gets to keep 75 per cent of that first $7.3 million — $5.48 million — plus 20 per cent of any revenue beyond $7.3-million. Manitoba Liquor & Lotteries takes the rest of the cash under all three scenarios.

 

David Thomson, the 3rd Baron Thomson of Fleet, is a Canadian businessman, media magnate, art collector who has a net worth of $50 billion. David Thomson is the Chairman of the Thomson Reuters corporation and his family is the richest in Canada. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Wideleft

[TrueBlue4ever]

3 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

Without huge tax breaks and gifted lottery revenue, these extremely wealthy people would not have returned the team to Winnipeg.

So why begrudge someone else for the breaks they get? Jets generate a lot of revenue for the city in terms of tourism and rise the international profile of the city. Are you personally hard done by because they get some tax relief?

[Wideleft]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

So why begrudge someone else for the breaks they get? Jets generate a lot of revenue for the city in terms of tourism and rise the international profile of the city. Are you personally hard done by because they get some tax relief?

The less tax the rich pay, the more the rest of us plebes pay.

[blue_gold_84]

31 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

The less tax the rich pay, the more the rest of us plebes pay.

Have our taxes gone up in Winnipeg because of the breaks given to TNSE since the Jets returned in 2011?

[Wideleft]

12 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Have our taxes gone up in Winnipeg because of the breaks given to TNSE since the Jets returned in 2011?

Have other programs and infrastructure suffered from underfunding?

[blue_gold_84]

1 hour ago, Wideleft said:

Have other programs and infrastructure suffered from underfunding?

I don't know. You seem to know more about this topic than I or others here do, so I posed a question hoping for an answer. But you chose to reply by posing a question, so I'll just leave it at that. 

FWIW, I completely agree that when the rich don't pay, we have to instead (which speaks to a much larger societal issue).

[Wideleft]

17 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

I don't know. You seem to know more about this topic than I or others here do, so I posed a question hoping for an answer. But you chose to reply by posing a question, so I'll just leave it at that. 

FWIW, I completely agree that when the rich don't pay, we have to instead (which speaks to a much larger societal issue).

It's not a simple question to answer or quantify.  Since there are city and provincial tax breaks/revenue offered to True North, you'd have to examine increases in each municipality as well as city wards as well as increased user fees.  Someone, somewhere had to make up the difference given to True North and/or programs were cut.

Katz proposed a 3.5% property tax increase in 2012 (the year after the Jets return), but I can't find info to confirm it passed (yet).

Found it:

The City of Winnipeg’s property-tax freeze has ended after 14 years, as city council has proposed a 3.5 per cent hike on residential and commercial property taxes in 2012.

The city’s 2012 operating budget calls for $900 million in city spending this year on all city services, from policing to insect control. That’s an increase of $53 million over the 2011 operating budget.

The property-tax hike will raise $14.8 million to help cover the spending increase.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/2012/02/28/citys-tax-freeze-thaws

Edited September 13, 2022 by Wideleft

[Rich]

20 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

It's not a simple question to answer or quantify.  Since there are city and provincial tax breaks/revenue offered to True North, you'd have to examine increases in each municipality as well as city wards as well as increased user fees.  Someone, somewhere had to make up the difference given to True North and/or programs were cut.

Katz proposed a 3.5% property tax increase in 2012 (the year after the Jets return), but I can't find info to confirm it passed (yet).

Found it:

The City of Winnipeg’s property-tax freeze has ended after 14 years, as city council has proposed a 3.5 per cent hike on residential and commercial property taxes in 2012.

The city’s 2012 operating budget calls for $900 million in city spending this year on all city services, from policing to insect control. That’s an increase of $53 million over the 2011 operating budget.

The property-tax hike will raise $14.8 million to help cover the spending increase.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/2012/02/28/citys-tax-freeze-thaws

As you said it is not a simple question to answer and even that report doesn't come close to painting the full picture.

True North does get a tax refund from the tax charged on tickets (along with gaming revenue and tax breaks on the arena), but there is no guarantee that money would be going to the city if the Jets weren't there.  The downtown is dying with many abandoned buildings.  Would there be tax revenue on the block of real estate without the Jets there? Hard to say, but I suspect things are only going to continue to get worse for downtown with hybrid work models.

The majority of cities now a days will give tax breaks to professional sports teams.  It is a reality of todays sports climate.  If enough people support it, it will continue.  If enough people are against it, the team will leave.  

Pretty sure the Jets don't make a lot of profit on their balance sheet year to year with the economic realities of having the team in Winnipeg.  You aren't really subsidizing rich peoples pockets with more money, you are subsidizing to keep the NHL entertainment in the city.    Owners make money as the value of the franchise rises.  They will pay taxes on that if / when they sell.

[Wideleft]

19 minutes ago, Rich said:

As you said it is not a simple question to answer and even that report doesn't come close to painting the full picture.

True North does get a tax refund from the tax charged on tickets (along with gaming revenue and tax breaks on the arena), but there is no guarantee that money would be going to the city if the Jets weren't there.  The downtown is dying with many abandoned buildings.  Would there be tax revenue on the block of real estate without the Jets there? Hard to say, but I suspect things are only going to continue to get worse for downtown with hybrid work models.

The majority of cities now a days will give tax breaks to professional sports teams.  It is a reality of todays sports climate.  If enough people support it, it will continue.  If enough people are against it, the team will leave.  

Pretty sure the Jets don't make a lot of profit on their balance sheet year to year with the economic realities of having the team in Winnipeg.  You aren't really subsidizing rich peoples pockets with more money, you are subsidizing to keep the NHL entertainment in the city.    Owners make money as the value of the franchise rises.  They will pay taxes on that if / when they sell.

Thompson is sitting on $50 Billion.  He doesn't need my help for his shiny toy, nor should he threaten to leave if he doesn't get a break.

I'm all for returning to Blue Bomber talk.

[Rich]

26 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

Thompson is sitting on $50 Billion.  He doesn't need my help for his shiny toy, nor should he threaten to leave if he doesn't get a break.

I'm all for returning to Blue Bomber talk.

It is not your money.  And why would you get a say as to whether he should stay or leave?  You can choose whether or not you pay to support the Jets.  You can choose who you elect who makes the decisions to provide subsidies or not. 

There is no reason for him to keep a team here when it loses money and doesn't get similar tax advantages that other cities will offer.  

Again, it comes down to what a majority of people want in a democratic society.  

[rebusrankin]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

As you said it is not a simple question to answer and even that report doesn't come close to painting the full picture.

True North does get a tax refund from the tax charged on tickets (along with gaming revenue and tax breaks on the arena), but there is no guarantee that money would be going to the city if the Jets weren't there.  The downtown is dying with many abandoned buildings.  Would there be tax revenue on the block of real estate without the Jets there? Hard to say, but I suspect things are only going to continue to get worse for downtown with hybrid work models.

The majority of cities now a days will give tax breaks to professional sports teams.  It is a reality of todays sports climate.  If enough people support it, it will continue.  If enough people are against it, the team will leave.  

Pretty sure the Jets don't make a lot of profit on their balance sheet year to year with the economic realities of having the team in Winnipeg.  You aren't really subsidizing rich peoples pockets with more money, you are subsidizing to keep the NHL entertainment in the city.    Owners make money as the value of the franchise rises.  They will pay taxes on that if / when they sell.

Jets have made a profit each year that they have been here. True North is making $ on the team.

[Wideleft]

54 minutes ago, Rich said:

It is not your money.  And why would you get a say as to whether he should stay or leave?  You can choose whether or not you pay to support the Jets.  You can choose who you elect who makes the decisions to provide subsidies or not. 

There is no reason for him to keep a team here when it loses money and doesn't get similar tax advantages that other cities will offer.  

Again, it comes down to what a majority of people want in a democratic society.  

My money is part of the generous tax relief the Jets receive.  If the Jets lose money here and a 50 billionaire can't absorb that (or write off losses), then it shouldn't be here.

I'd be interested to see polling that says the majority of Manitobans support the True North gravy train deal.  I don't think the majority of Manitobans even care about the Jets.

[Noeller]

4 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I don't think the majority of Manitobans even care about the Jets.

I mean.......c'mon........

[Wideleft]

5 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I mean.......c'mon........

Majority is 50+%.  They can't sell out a small arena and you can't tell me they average 635,000 TV viewers either (and don't forget their regional broadcast extends beyond Manitoba).  For some reason, I can't find their TV viewership numbers.

I doubt 50% care about the NHL and interest is waning as people get older.

[TrueBlue4ever]

Just a reminder of what True North generates in income FOR the city, since some are upset about the tax breaks and what they TAKE. I’d wager without the tax they put back in (which is triple what their tax break is according to the sources provided by both sides) then the “plebes” would have higher taxes. 
 

No, I don’t think the numbers are all that simple, but this is more than just rich guys fleecing the city and leaving the common guy to pay all the bills that some would say it is. 
 

https://www.tnse.com/news/true-norths-economic-impact/

Edited September 13, 2022 by TrueBlue4ever

[kelownabomberfan]

6 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Just a reminder of what True North generates in income FOR the city, since some are upset about the tax breaks and what they TAKE. I’d wager without the tax they put back in (which is triple what their tax break is according to the sources provided by both sides) then the “plebes” would have higher taxes. 
 

No, I don’t think the numbers are all that simple, but this is more than just rich guys fleecing the city and leaving the common guy to pay all the bills that some would say it is. 
 

https://www.tnse.com/news/true-norths-economic-impact/

Wealthy people are always to be hated at all costs, no matter what the actual facts are.

I wish kids would yell "True North" at science fairs in Kelowna, that would be cool.

[Goalie]

6 hours ago, Wideleft said:

Majority is 50+%.  They can't sell out a small arena and you can't tell me they average 635,000 TV viewers either (and don't forget their regional broadcast extends beyond Manitoba).  For some reason, I can't find their TV viewership numbers.

I doubt 50% care about the NHL and interest is waning as people get older.

I'll tell you right now,  interest ain't waning. Maybe in playing it more because it's Hella expensive,  equipment is pricey. But every kid in my kids school wears Jets clothing, they have like a Jets day. Jets have appeared at schools through zoom during reading weeks. Jets are insanely popular with kids. 

I love the Bombers but BRO, the CFL is nothing compared to the NHL. They can't sell out cuz covid rules and because the team sucked. The Bombers don't sell out every game and they are back to back. More ppl in Winnipeg Manitoba And Canada care about the Jets. Its just reality 

[bustamente]

Don't forget that Chipman is still carrying a heavy debt from the purchase of the team, but he also has more revenue streams that Jets 1.0 could of only dreamed of.

[rebusrankin]

20 minutes ago, bustamente said:

Don't forget that Chipman is still carrying a heavy debt from the purchase of the team, but he also has more revenue streams that Jets 1.0 could of only dreamed of.

He's still carrying a heavy debt from a $170 million purchase from 11 years ago. For a sports team, that's peanuts. Also what percentage does he own and how much is owned by Thompson aka the guy worth tens of billions?

[bustamente]

Thompson's company does not own as much as people think, remember his ownership stake is because of the property that he owned I could be wrong but I don't think he put any money into buying the team

[Rich]

10 minutes ago, bustamente said:

Thompson's company does not own as much as people think, remember his ownership stake is because of the property that he owned I could be wrong but I don't think he put any money into buying the team

His original stake was because of the property, but there were also other investors that Chipman and Thompson bought out over time before buying the Jets.   Don't think it is public knowledge how much of that money came from who.

[Wideleft]

12 hours ago, bustamente said:

Don't forget that Chipman is still carrying a heavy debt from the purchase of the team, but he also has more revenue streams that Jets 1.0 could of only dreamed of.

The Corporation carries debt.  Not Chipman.

12 hours ago, Goalie said:

I'll tell you right now,  interest ain't waning. Maybe in playing it more because it's Hella expensive,  equipment is pricey. But every kid in my kids school wears Jets clothing, they have like a Jets day. Jets have appeared at schools through zoom during reading weeks. Jets are insanely popular with kids. 

I love the Bombers but BRO, the CFL is nothing compared to the NHL. They can't sell out cuz covid rules and because the team sucked. The Bombers don't sell out every game and they are back to back. More ppl in Winnipeg Manitoba And Canada care about the Jets. Its just reality 

That's not the debate.  Here we are on a sports fan message board telling people how popular sports is.  

If you get out of the silo, you'd be surprised at how many people don't care about pro sports - never mind the Jets and Bombers.