Religious Beliefs

[Mark H.]

Religious beliefs are a topic that is often raised on these boards, mostly with a negative slant

Given what goes on in many circles, that's understandable but also unfair

As a person of faith, I have just a few things to air out

1. The Bible is unlike many other texts, but at the same time it's similar to many other texts

2. If you're looking at it as an ancient, irrelevant text - you are going to find that point of view

3. If you're looking for sex, violence and patriarchy - you are going to find them

4. But if you're looking for applicable life lessons - you will find them

5. If you're looking for peace and love - you will find them

I think we're capable of having a respectful discourse on this topic.  And, who knows, some learning just might happen.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

Religious beliefs are a topic that is often raised on these boards, mostly with a negative slant

Given what goes on in many circles, that's understandable but also unfair

As a person of faith, I have just a few things to air out

1. The Bible is unlike many other texts, but at the same time it's similar to many other texts

2. If you're looking at it as an ancient, irrelevant text - you are going to find that point of view

3. If you're looking for sex, violence and patriarchy - you are going to find them

4. But if you're looking for applicable life lessons - you will find them

5. If you're looking for peace and love - you will find them

I think we're capable of having a respectful discourse on this topic.  And, who knows, some learning just might happen.

I have studied the bible and read it several times as well as researched Christian theologists' views on it. As per your statement, there is value is many, not all, of the concepts proposed in it. Fundamentalists do a great disservice when they say and teach that the Bible is the only perfect unalterable word of God. This sets them and their churches up for ridicule as this is easily disproven. This does not faze the true believers one whit. The consensus among rational theologians is that about a third of both the old and new Testaments is provably wrong, and about another third is questionable. That leaves about a third that has significant credibility. Even the "four pillars" of Christianity -the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John do not escape scrutiny and criticism.

First off, there is significant evidence that Yeshua Ben-Yusof existed, much as described in the gospels along with the activities reported. But the Christian movement was fraught with divisions and conflict right from Day One. Much of what He taught has been edited, altered and deleted according to the dictates of the authorities of the churches and states of the time. 

Of all the teaching of the Last Adam, the value of His ministry is best described in "Do unto others as you would have done to you".

[Mark H.]

14 minutes ago, Tracker said:

First off, there is significant evidence that Yeshua Ben-Yusof existed, much as described in the gospels along with the activities reported. But the Christian movement was fraught with divisions and conflict right from Day One. Much of what He taught has been edited, altered and deleted according to the dictates of the authorities of the churches and states of the time. 

Absolutely. The Bible is not the word of God - the Bible contains the word of God. Once one realizes and accepts this truth - then and only then can value be found in the text.  See, it's not the parts that may be errant or are hard to decipher that give me pause, but rather those that are easily understood and hard to live up to.

[SpeedFlex27]

Religion is the reason we are where we are now as a society. Almost every war was started because of religion. If we had no religion the world would be a much better place. 

[rebusrankin]

27 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Religion is the reason we are where we are now as a society. Almost every war was started because of religion. If we had no religion the world would be a much better place. 

World War 1, World War 2, Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War 91, Boer War, US Civil War, American Revolution, Mexican American War, 100 Years War, which one was started by religion?

[Mark H.]

2 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Religion is the reason we are where we are now as a society. Almost every war was started because of religion. If we had no religion the world would be a much better place. 

Yes, religious wars are and have been a huge issue.

No, not everything about our current society is bad - there is a lot of good.

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Religion is the reason we are where we are now as a society. Almost every war was started because of religion. If we had no religion the world would be a much better place. 

Oil and money also causes wars.  If we had no oil or money the world would be a much better place.   

 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Oil and money also causes wars.  If we had no oil or money the world would be a much better place.   

 

Religion has caused more war, suffering & death than anything related to O & G. 

[Brandon]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Religion has caused more war, suffering & death than anything related to O & G. 

Yes but O & G has also caused wars so the world would be a better place without them as well.   

Religion has also caused many great things with love and peace ,  so why only focus on the negative?   

[rebusrankin]

I'm straying a little off topic so I'll say this once and then let it go, yes religion can be blamed for some wars but the desire for power and wealth have been a far greater cause of war then religion.

5 hours ago, Brandon said:

Yes but O & G has also caused wars so the world would be a better place without them as well.   

Religion has also caused many great things with love and peace ,  so why only focus on the negative?   

Such as orphanages, hospitals, public education, numerous charities and several  scientific discoveries?

[Tracker]

I suggest that religion per se is not the problem. Neither is power, wealth, politics, sexuality, education or food etc. etc. Our abuse of these is more a symptom of our desires to aggrandize ourselves at the expense of others, as opposed to accepting that we are all drawn from the same Source and must return to the same. A corollary of this is none of us are any greater than the other and, as Schroedinger, proposed, there is really only One of us- that we are cells in the body of our Creator. Any harm we do another will ultimately be ultimately be visited upon us.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

[Wilbur]

People can believe whatever they want to believe. Only thing that irks me is when people try to use it as a rationalization for something or try to push it on others. I will be honest and say my brother is an atheist and I am very much on the fence myself tbh. However, we both have never poked fun at someone for their religious beliefs and never will.

We all need to cope with life in one way or the other.

[Noeller]

2 hours ago, Tracker said:

Nothing new here. If the LGBTQ community did not exist, these same bigots would be railing against gays, Muslims, Hindus, vegans and/or the "wrong" kind of Christians.

it's so funny... when I moved down to Winkler many years ago, I was surprised to learn how many different Mennonite churches there were within the town. I asked a relatively enlightened co-worker, who was a member of one of the churches, what that was all about and he said "different interpretations of the same text (bible)"..... it's really just so crazy to me that this is a thing. Peace, love and respect for all living things...... what more do you need to interpret than that? 

[Wideleft]

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

it's so funny... when I moved down to Winkler many years ago, I was surprised to learn how many different Mennonite churches there were within the town. I asked a relatively enlightened co-worker, who was a member of one of the churches, what that was all about and he said "different interpretations of the same text (bible)"..... it's really just so crazy to me that this is a thing. Peace, love and respect for all living things...... what more do you need to interpret than that? 

Tax-free money?

[Tracker]

2 minutes ago, Noeller said:

it's so funny... when I moved down to Winkler many years ago, I was surprised to learn how many different Mennonite churches there were within the town. I asked a relatively enlightened co-worker, who was a member of one of the churches, what that was all about and he said "different interpretations of the same text (bible)"..... it's really just so crazy to me that this is a thing. Peace, love and respect for all living things...... what more do you need to interpret than that? 

Intolerance has nothing to do with belief or spirituality. There are and always have been those in every social group whose identity is so fragile that it must be continuously reinforced that they and they alone have The Answer and everyone else is "other"- essentially sub-human and therefore not the chosen. The greatest teachings within religion and without speak of the great unity of humans- that we are all drawn from the same source and to do harm to others is to do harm to all.

[GCn20]

4 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Intolerance has nothing to do with belief or spirituality. There are and always have been those in every social group whose identity is so fragile that it must be continuously reinforced that they and they alone have The Answer and everyone else is "other"- essentially sub-human and therefore not the chosen. The greatest teachings within religion and without speak of the great unity of humans- that we are all drawn from the same source and to do harm to others is to do harm to all.

Even in our native traditional teachings we share those same teachings with christianity....as it was meant to be. Not once humans subjected it to their interpretation for gain and greed.

[Tracker]

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

Even in our native traditional teachings we share those same teachings with christianity....as it was meant to be. Not once humans subjected it to their interpretation for gain and greed.

Again, we come to the point where some "Christians" choose to believe that their interpretations of the Bible or even doctrine not part of Christian tradition entitles then to superiority over unbelievers. Yeshua, who is commonly called Jesus is recorded as saying that His greatest teaching was that we should love one another as He loved us.

[Mark H.]

17 hours ago, Tracker said:

Again, we come to the point where some "Christians" choose to believe that their interpretations of the Bible or even doctrine not part of Christian tradition entitles then to superiority over unbelievers. Yeshua, who is commonly called Jesus is recorded as saying that His greatest teaching was that we should love one another as He loved us.

Which is the main reason why there so many churches today.  The original intent of the reformation, was to get back to what the scriptures were really teaching.  But everything was already so corrupt, that it only took hold in very small groups.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

Which is the main reason why there so many churches today.  The original intent of the reformation, was to get back to what the scriptures were really teaching.  But everything was already so corrupt, that it only took hold in very small groups.

Even before Yeshua died, there was friction among His followers. Some believed that they should completely secede from the traditional Jewish faith and practices but others believed that they ought to be just another sect of Judaism, following of circumcision diet and other rules. After His crucifixion, there came open hostilities and a schism. Such is humankind.

[Mark H.]

3 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Even before Yeshua died, there was friction among His followers. Some believed that they should completely secede from the traditional Jewish faith and practices but others believed that they ought to be just another sect of Judaism, following of circumcision diet and other rules. After His crucifixion, there came open hostilities and a schism. Such is humankind.

Yes.  That is the root of the rift between Christianity and Judaism.  People were forced to choose one or the other - or be persecuted

Literally, the persecuted became the persecuted. (I prefer the German: die Verfolgten werden die Verfolger)

[Tracker]

Just now, Mark H. said:

Yes.  That is the root of the rift between Christianity and Judaism.  People were forced to choose one or the other - or be persecuted

Literally, the persecuted became the persecuted. (I prefer the German: die Verfolgten werden die Verfolger)

To underline your point: once Rome officially became "Christian", the human sacrifices in the arenas switched from Christians to pagans and watched with the same gusto.

[Dan38]

20 hours ago, Tracker said:

To underline your point: once Rome officially became "Christian", the human sacrifices in the arenas switched from Christians to pagans and watched with the same gusto.

  You need to read a bit more history. There were no pagan martyrs after Constantine made Christianity a state religion. Was there persecution ? Yes but it was not against people as much as it was against temples. Temples were either destroyed outright or made into Churches. There was a capital punishment against pagans but no documentation exists that it was ever carried out and considering the morals of Christianity it is highly unlikely it ever was. The Romans wrote EVERYTHING down.

 

 No atheist, no agnostic and no scientist can prove there is no God.  Believers on the other hand believe they have enough evidence to prove there is a God.

That's as simple as I can put it. I wish no ill will on atheists or believers.

[the watcher]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:53 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

Religion is the reason we are where we are now as a society. Almost every war was started because of religion. If we had no religion the world would be a much better place. 

I hear this often but I totally disagree.  In my opinion MOST wars aren't started over religion but rather the combatants invoke God on their side once a war has started for other reasons. 

[the watcher]

Dan 38 said.   " 

Temples were either destroyed outright or made into Churches. 

This is a very  common thing when a particular culture is replaced. If really came home to me when I was in the York Minster in England. Touring below ground you can see it is built on an Anglo-Saxon church, a Viking temple, and a " pagan site. So,  if you want people to come to your church and embrace your religion ( which helps you control them ) then you put it where they are use to going.  It's not a thing that is discussed much but it seems to be a common practice.

Edited June 24, 2023 by the watcher