CFL - 2023 Regular Season - Discussion Thread

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, Mark F said:

I have a question:

how many offensive plays do the  Bombers have in their playbook that they actually use in a game?

 

signals maybe?

Likely 100-150 pass plays and 40-50 run plays. Now how many are installed in a game?  Half ish. Probably 20 or so of the passing plays and 12-15 of the run plays are bread and butter installed every week. The majority of the rest are situational.

So when you build your play book in the off season you have a group of plays to beat specific coverage. Defence plays cover 3 buzz mable, you have a pack of plays to beat that. Some of that will be used in a cover 1 or cover 7 scheme say, but alignment and personal packs change. 
 In the run you have specific plays to use if the dl is run stunting (twisting dts) to try and steal an extra gap with out an extra body. Or if the dts read the C and when he crosses one the other wraps back to get back in the way etc. 

Other than that you have packages that develop over the year. So you have bread and butter but then you have some mayo, pepperoni, mustard etc plays to use in the future when teams adjust to your bread and butter. 

The bombers are very modular, they run the same pass and run concepts out of different formations  we might run our dagger concept out of 11 formation with a wr like Bailey tight or they might run it out of bunches  or 4x1 etc. we don’t tip our play with rb or formation alignment. We will also use one alignment with motion or zero motion (moving to a new spot at the snap) to get into another look. 
 

the Signals are used to relate terminology. So it’s possible to intercept and translate to steal the play. It’s happened a lot in the cfl and nfl over the past 25 years. But the signals often change every week because of this now. This is also why you see use of different ways to signal in plays. Couple years ago Hamilton I think even used the flash cards. 

 

[Mark F]

@wbbfan

 

thankyou.

[wbbfan]

7 hours ago, GCn20 said:

People seem to think that a play book remains static throughout the year, and it most certainly does not and most definitely changes drastically year to year. Desjarlais might be able to point out some chinks in the armour at a personnel level on the OL, things he knows certain guys struggle with more, but that's about it. Pigrome is quite literally useless to his new team, in regards to play book. We have built a ton of new plays since the insertion of McCrae that Piggy wouldn't know, and existing plays are now seeing progressions built off of them. No team runs the exact same play book all year...you can't...there is too much film.

The big thing you get from old players is tendencies, what guys struggle with, and how certain guys/alignment/movement can tip plays. Like how in the chip Kelly offence at Oregon if the rb was left of the qb the run would be out side zone with the play side on the opposite side of the rb. (Rb crosses QBs face) and if he was behind it was insider zone read etc. this did change over time as chip added new wrinkles and runs that broke the tendency.

 If you aren’t a team that’s great at film, inside info won’t be worth any thing. If your the pats, you get every thing you could possibly want from tape. Those tapes might be from practice though. Lol. 

[Noeller]

This is amazing stuff and the reason this is the only message board for Bombers and CFL diehards.

[wbbfan]

13 minutes ago, Noeller said:

This is amazing stuff and the reason this is the only message board for Bombers and CFL diehards.

We have a great wealth of guys on here who bring tremendous content in all kinds of forms. And the community only seems to grow here. Its amazing what Zach has built in such a short time with the podcast especially. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

Everyone is basically running the same stuff.  Teams have a handful of iso routes, and a bunch of 2 and 3 man route concepts for pass.  Everyone runs a version of zone read now with a handful of downhill running plays, iso (back going to a certain gap) or zone (directional blocking read by back).  For the run scheme, it's all rooted in Mike Shanahan's concepts from Denver and San Fran (as OC and head coach) with the zone read evolving as a mix with the spread offense which really started in the Northeast.  Lapo is from that tree, one of the guys who brought it (more read plays, QB run, zone read as base) north along with Hufnagel when he came back.  For the pass scheme it's all based off the Spread and the Air Raid.  There's less and less West Coast (Trestman style) offense around by the year.  West Coast is more prescribed, Air Raid stuff is more adjustable to the coverage.  If you pull out a numbered route tree and show it to someone who's grown up playing football in this era it's like showing them a magazine or a rotary phone.  It's all adjustable routes and route combos now.

Tendencies are what is different.  If it's 2nd and 6, this guy likes to call this.  This QB wants to run this.  There's not really any secrets.  It's calling the right play to isolate the right guy and winning the play.

Edited July 12, 2023 by JuranBoldenRules

[HardCoreBlue]

36 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Everyone is basically running the same stuff.  Teams have a handful of iso routes, and a bunch of 2 and 3 man route concepts for pass.  Everyone runs a version of zone read now with a handful of downhill running plays, iso (back going to a certain gap) or zone (directional blocking read by back).  For the run scheme, it's all rooted in Mike Shanahan's concepts from Denver and San Fran (as OC and head coach) with the zone read evolving as a mix with the spread offense which really started in the Northeast.  Lapo is from that tree, one of the guys who brought it (more read plays, QB run, zone read as base) north along with Hufnagel when he came back.  For the pass scheme it's all based off the Spread and the Air Raid.  There's less and less West Coast (Trestman style) offense around by the year.  West Coast is more prescribed, Air Raid stuff is more adjustable to the coverage.  If you pull out a numbered route tree and show it to someone who's grown up playing football in this era it's like showing them a magazine or a rotary phone.  It's all adjustable routes and route combos now.

Tendencies are what is different.  If it's 2nd and 6, this guy likes to call this.  This QB wants to run this.  There's not really any secrets.  It's calling the right play to isolate the right guy and winning the play.

Your last sentence is gold.

[bearpants]

8 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Tendencies are what is different.  If it's 2nd and 6, this guy likes to call this.  This QB wants to run this.  There's not really any secrets.  It's calling the right play to isolate the right guy and winning the play.

You often hear guys say it's all about execution... it doesn't matter if the defense knows exactly what's coming... if you execute, you'll get it done... Exhibit 1A: 4th quarter drive by the Bomber last Friday night

[wbbfan]

8 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Everyone is basically running the same stuff.  Teams have a handful of iso routes, and a bunch of 2 and 3 man route concepts for pass.  Everyone runs a version of zone read now with a handful of downhill running plays, iso (back going to a certain gap) or zone (directional blocking read by back).  For the run scheme, it's all rooted in Mike Shanahan's concepts from Denver and San Fran (as OC and head coach) with the zone read evolving as a mix with the spread offense which really started in the Northeast.  Lapo is from that tree, one of the guys who brought it (more read plays, QB run, zone read as base) north along with Hufnagel when he came back.  For the pass scheme it's all based off the Spread and the Air Raid.  There's less and less West Coast (Trestman style) offense around by the year.  West Coast is more prescribed, Air Raid stuff is more adjustable to the coverage.  If you pull out a numbered route tree and show it to someone who's grown up playing football in this era it's like showing them a magazine or a rotary phone.  It's all adjustable routes and route combos now.

Tendencies are what is different.  If it's 2nd and 6, this guy likes to call this.  This QB wants to run this.  There's not really any secrets.  It's calling the right play to isolate the right guy and winning the play.

100% cfl offences are extremely stagnant and have been for a while. The biggest difference you see is what routes teams target in those concepts and some teams/QBs are better at taking what’s available. The collaros to lawler 20 yard out is a good example of that. 
 

plop certainly came from that time and era but doesn’t have direct lineage connecting to shanahan, which shows. His playbook is stuck in 90s mode too lol. He used to lean heavily on the mike leach air raid screen pass package too. 

5 minutes ago, bearpants said:

You often hear guys say it's all about execution... it doesn't matter if the defense knows exactly what's coming... if you execute, you'll get it done... Exhibit 1A: 4th quarter drive by the Bomber last Friday night

Especially in the cfl. You just can’t stop offence any more. You slow it down and try to contain it as best as you can. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

22 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

100% cfl offences are extremely stagnant and have been for a while. The biggest difference you see is what routes teams target in those concepts and some teams/QBs are better at taking what’s available. The collaros to lawler 20 yard out is a good example of that. 
 

plop certainly came from that time and era but doesn’t have direct lineage connecting to shanahan, which shows. His playbook is stuck in 90s mode too lol. He used to lean heavily on the mike leach air raid screen pass package too. 

Especially in the cfl. You just can’t stop offence any more. You slow it down and try to contain it as best as you can. 

Lapo from the northeast zone read tree like Chip Kelly.

[GCn20]

11 hours ago, wbbfan said:

The big thing you get from old players is tendencies, what guys struggle with, and how certain guys/alignment/movement can tip plays. Like how in the chip Kelly offence at Oregon if the rb was left of the qb the run would be out side zone with the play side on the opposite side of the rb. (Rb crosses QBs face) and if he was behind it was insider zone read etc. this did change over time as chip added new wrinkles and runs that broke the tendency.

 If you aren’t a team that’s great at film, inside info won’t be worth any thing. If your the pats, you get every thing you could possibly want from tape. Those tapes might be from practice though. Lol. 

You can bet your bottom dollar that in a 9 team league with lots of player movement each year that our coordinators are pretty damn good at changing up signals and making their plays hard to pick up pre-snap through subtle changes week in and week out.....especially in situations where we are facing a player we just released, or spent a lot of time with us. Further to that....even if we had a guy intimately familiar with the ins and outs of our play book to pass that knowledge to his new DC, and then his new DC coach everyone up on it in the span of 3 days would be pretty damn tough.

11 hours ago, wbbfan said:

The big thing you get from old players is tendencies, what guys struggle with, and how certain guys/alignment/movement can tip plays. Like how in the chip Kelly offence at Oregon if the rb was left of the qb the run would be out side zone with the play side on the opposite side of the rb. (Rb crosses QBs face) and if he was behind it was insider zone read etc. this did change over time as chip added new wrinkles and runs that broke the tendency.

 If you aren’t a team that’s great at film, inside info won’t be worth any thing. If your the pats, you get every thing you could possibly want from tape. Those tapes might be from practice though. Lol. 

Yea, I think Couture being a former centre would know a lot more of our OL tendencies than Desjarlais at OG. Also, Desjarlais would be a couple years removed from the Bombers so his memory of such things may not be as good.

[GCn20]

10 hours ago, Noeller said:

This is amazing stuff and the reason this is the only message board for Bombers and CFL diehards.

Stop the hate. Any message board that is Bombers and CFL related that has traffic is a damn good thing for our team and our league. Not sure why you are feeling threatened by any of them? People wanna talk Bombers, and that is a good thing. Some like the conversations light, breezy and moderated others want to dive deep and be able to speak more freely. There is no right or wrong.

[TrueBlue4ever]

18 hours ago, Noeller said:

I must be in a good section or something because everyone is great about when to make noise. 

[wbbfan]

27 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

You can bet your bottom dollar that in a 9 team league with lots of player movement each year that our coordinators are pretty damn good at changing up signals and making their plays hard to pick up pre-snap through subtle changes week in and week out.....especially in situations where we are facing a player we just released, or spent a lot of time with us. Further to that....even if we had a guy intimately familiar with the ins and outs of our play book to pass that knowledge to his new DC, and then his new DC coach everyone up on it in the span of 3 days would be pretty damn tough.

Yea, I think Couture being a former centre would know a lot more of our OL tendencies than Desjarlais at OG. Also, Desjarlais would be a couple years removed from the Bombers so his memory of such things may not be as good.

Pretty much. Since the pats and don mathews als got busted stealing signals it’s been much tighter. 
 The Argos beat us with excellent film study game planning and execution. The Leo’s I think had help from couture, though that by no means discredits their performance or excuses ours. It’s the same thing really. 
 

I don’t think the RBs are in a position to exploit film, insider info, or any thing else really. They are hands full prepping a rookie qb to start against a defence that is very tough on QBs. 

4 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Imo it’s more about when to be loud. If a team isn’t prepared for the silent snap count and to audible by signals they pooped the bed already. Being loud when the qb is trying to relay the play is much more advantageous. 
 We’ve tracked procedure calls but no one talks about it WRs and QBs being confused and not on the same page. 

[GCn20]

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Pretty much. Since the pats and don mathews als got busted stealing signals it’s been much tighter. 
 The Argos beat us with excellent film study game planning and execution. The Leo’s I think had help from couture, though that by no means discredits their performance or excuses ours. It’s the same thing really. 
 

I don’t think the RBs are in a position to exploit film, insider info, or any thing else really. They are hands full prepping a rookie qb to start against a defence that is very tough on QBs. 

Imo it’s more about when to be loud. If a team isn’t prepared for the silent snap count and to audible by signals they pooped the bed already. Being loud when the qb is trying to relay the play is much more advantageous. 
 We’ve tracked procedure calls but no one talks about it WRs and QBs being confused and not on the same page. 

Agreed on all points.

[Bigblue204]

Leo's didn't beat the Bombers because of Couture knowledge of the play book. They beat em cause Collaros had time for 1 read before he was on his ass. And there was no insider info telling Betts to take take a goat to the woodshed. They got beat because they didn't show up.

But yes the time for fans to get loud is when the oppositions O is walking out on the field,  or back to the huddle. Don't wait for them to break the huddle.

[Jesse]

55 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Leo's didn't beat the Bombers because of Couture knowledge of the play book. They beat em cause Collaros had time for 1 read before he was on his ass. And there was no insider info telling Betts to take take a goat to the woodshed. They got beat because they didn't show up.

But yes the time for fans to get loud is when the oppositions O is walking out on the field,  or back to the huddle. Don't wait for them to break the huddle.

Betts is something else so far this season.

[JuranBoldenRules]

Trevor Harris is PFF's top graded offensive player of the week.  QB of a team that won a game 12-11 because of a special teams gaffe.  Apparently scoring points is not a strong part of the criteria for offense.

[Booch]

I dont put too much...if any consideration for that grading they do to be honest

[HardCoreBlue]

53 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Betts is something else so far this season.

And it looks like he's having tons of fun. Man he'd look good in Blue and Gold. 

[JCon]

26 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Trevor Harris is PFF's top graded offensive player of the week.  QB of a team that won a game 12-11 because of a special teams gaffe.  Apparently scoring points is not a strong part of the criteria for offense.

This is Harris' career in a nutshell. Puts up yards but little in terms of points. 

[Booch]

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

This is Harris' career in a nutshell. Puts up yards but little in terms of points. 

and wins

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Trevor Harris is PFF's top graded offensive player of the week.  QB of a team that won a game 12-11 because of a special teams gaffe.  Apparently scoring points is not a strong part of the criteria for offense.

And their ol was no1 too. You know your metrics are junk when lol. 
 

1 hour ago, JCon said:

This is Harris' career in a nutshell. Puts up yards but little in terms of points. 

I kind of want to see him with plop. Some ones head would explode. 

[rebusrankin]

They have Montreal's OL rated highly. Same one that has allowed 22 sacks in 4 games. Not saying sacks are the be all, end all but 5.5 a game allowed is a sign of issues.

[JCon]

3 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

They have Montreal's OL rated highly. Same one that has allowed 22 sacks in 4 games. Not saying sacks are the be all, end all but 5.5 a game allowed is a sign of issues.