CFL - 2023 Regular Season - Discussion Thread

[Fatty Liver]

21 minutes ago, KshyGuy said:

I think the argument that is being made here, and that the Bombers were a 3rd place team, Streveler was at least somewhat injured (and underwhelming as a non-gadget player) and the depth QB was Sean McGuire. If you don't pick up Collaros, maybe you grab another QB instead and not have to trot him out there, but McGuire with his one career start, 15-36 for 221 yards that includes 1 TD against 4 interceptions doesn't really inspire much confidence. 

I don't remember, was McGuire the actual #2 or was it Streveler?

Edited July 26, 2023 by Fatty Liver

[Bigblue204]

24 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

I don't remember, was McGuire the actual #2 or was it Streveler?

strev

[Booch]

33 minutes ago, M.Silverback said:

I'm with you on semi-pleased. Davis has declined, but he's better as a rotational player than our current depth. What's Walters' plan? Considering depth and overall talent level, where does our D-line rank? Five teams who are better? Four at best, possibly six? We need an upgrade in talent and added depth. Doesn't feel like a Grey Cup winning talent level D-line at present. Or entire defense for that matter.

well when you break it down....by numbers you are mistaken...Its more  depth thing right now, and rotation issue...due to said depth, and if not fixed...will prob wear the Dline down

currently we rank 1st sacks...we have played 1 more game than BC but the other teams are well behind us...we give up the lowest 1st down yardage in league....1st in comp. % against and 2nd in pass yards per game...a lot which can be linked to the dline play, as QB's are obviously not getting the time to make reads, or stand in there and deliver the ball....we also are 2nd in QB efficiency against as well...another thing which is a direct link to the dline play. and are middle of the road in rush yards against.

So our starting Dline guys....save for a flip flop of Lawson from Thomas, and when Haba was in are doing their job and upgrade in talent is a mis-informed comment......Its the total lack of depth behind them on the game day roster, and zero of it on the PR which is the issue, and pretty much playing with fire until we address it

 

[TBURGESS]

3 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

ummm. I hate to break it you. But in 2019 the Bombers...WITH Collaros were 3rd in the west. We went on the road to cgy then regina. Collaros played a huge part in both games and I'm not sure the outcome is the same if Nichols plays. BUT the Defence gave up how many TDs to ssk....in ssk? That was the start of the greatest Defence the CFL has ever seen. Without Collaros, the Bombers maaaaybe still had a chance at getting to the GC. Without the Defence playing the way they did, there is absolutely zero chance. 

I would post Collaros stats throughout the 2019 GC run, to show how steady, but unremarkable they were. But I can't find them because the CFL website is hot garbage.

My original post states that we were 3rd with or without Collaros in 2019.

The 2019 Bombers didn't have Collaros until the last game of the year. We went on the road to CGY only because we won the last game WITH Collaros. Without him, we don't win that game so we go to Regina, not Calgary. We didn't have a healthy Nichols or a healthy Strev, so we'd be starting a rookie QB in his 2nd career start in a playoff game in Regina. We barely beat Regina in the playoffs that year WITH Collaros, the chances of winning with a rookie QB are almost zero. 

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, KshyGuy said:

West Semi Final -- 11 of 21 for 193 yards and a TD
West Final  -- 17 of 25 for 267 yards and a TD
Grey Cup --  17 of 23 for 170 yards

 

I think the argument that is being made here, and that the Bombers were a 3rd place team, Streveler was at least somewhat injured (and underwhelming as a non-gadget player) and the depth QB was Sean McGuire. If you don't pick up Collaros, maybe you grab another QB instead and not have to trot him out there, but McGuire with his one career start, 15-36 for 221 yards that includes 1 TD against 4 interceptions doesn't really inspire much confidence. 

We wouldn't have used McGuire. We would have continued to trot out Streveler on a broken foot and that would not have gone well.

[Bigblue204]

Just now, TBURGESS said:

My original post states that we were 3rd with or without Collaros in 2019.

The 2019 Bombers didn't have Collaros until the last game of the year. We went on the road to CGY only because we won the last game WITH Collaros. Without him, we don't win that game so we go to Regina, not Calgary. We didn't have a healthy Nichols or a healthy Strev, so we'd be starting a rookie QB in his 2nd career start in a playoff game in Regina. We barely beat Regina in the playoffs that year WITH Collaros, the chances of winning with a rookie QB are almost zero. 

I'm not sure what the significance is of going to regina then cgy compared to what actually happened...? 

I'm not saying Collaros didn't play an important role. I'm saying, when it comes to the actual playoff games, the defense played a far more important role in winning those games than Collaros.
Yes if there is no Collaros, chances are slim we win (Though I'd argue the only way this team didn't have a vet QB signed late was with a healthy Nichols...and in that instance, I think there's a chance the BB still win it.)  but if the Defense gives up even 1 more TD in Regina, the game plays out differently. Remember earlier in OCT the bombers lost to SSK pretty bad. If THAT defense showed up in CGY we don't go to SSK. And if THAT defense shows up in the GC, Hamilton ends their drought, not us.

[TBURGESS]

26 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

I'm not sure what the significance is of going to regina then cgy compared to what actually happened...? 

I'm not saying Collaros didn't play an important role. I'm saying, when it comes to the actual playoff games, the defense played a far more important role in winning those games than Collaros.
Yes if there is no Collaros, chances are slim we win (Though I'd argue the only way this team didn't have a vet QB signed late was with a healthy Nichols...and in that instance, I think there's a chance the BB still win it.)  but if the Defense gives up even 1 more TD in Regina, the game plays out differently. Remember earlier in OCT the bombers lost to SSK pretty bad. If THAT defense showed up in CGY we don't go to SSK. And if THAT defense shows up in the GC, Hamilton ends their drought, not us.

Rookie QB isn't likely to win in either Regina or Calgary, but the Regina crowd would have made it even harder. 

Rookie QB isn't winning no matter how good the defense played.

Your 'argument' that we'd have signed a different vet QB is bunk. We got Collaros at the very last minute we were allowed to make a trade. There wasn't any other available vet QB to get. 

The Collaros TD play in the last game of the year changed the mind set from "here we go again" to "Now we've got hope". No Collaros = No hope.

[17to85]

Streveler played and played well significant portions of the playoffs including that game in Regina. It wasn't all collaros. You said initially he was the big difference maker, I disagree,  it was the changes to the D that were the big difference maker because those guys were straight up dominant in that 2019 run. They ruined Dane Evans career they were so good.

[Noeller]

3 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Streveler played and played well significant portions of the playoffs including that game in Regina. It wasn't all collaros. You said initially he was the big difference maker, I disagree,  it was the changes to the D that were the big difference maker because those guys were straight up dominant in that 2019 run. They ruined Dane Evans career they were so good.

Broke Evans and finished off BLM.... that was the end of him, that playoff game. 

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Broke Evans and finished off BLM.... that was the end of him, that playoff game. 

Hell let's throw in "breaking" faj too. 

[Noeller]

Dark Side just going around taking the will to live from guys....... **** 'em....

[JCon]

4 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Dark Side just going around taking the will to live from guys....... **** 'em....

You have to make some sacrifices (Evans, BLM, Faj) in order to bring someone back from the other side (Collaros). 

[kelownabomberfan]

8 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Dark Side just going around taking the will to live from guys....... **** 'em....

[Noeller]

12 minutes ago, JCon said:

You have to make some sacrifices (Evans, BLM, Faj) in order to bring someone back from the other side (Collaros). 

do what you gotta do to collect all the stones! 

[Bigblue204]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Rookie QB isn't likely to win in either Regina or Calgary, but the Regina crowd would have made it even harder. 

Rookie QB isn't winning no matter how good the defense played.

Your 'argument' that we'd have signed a different vet QB is bunk. We got Collaros at the very last minute we were allowed to make a trade. There wasn't any other available vet QB to get. 

The Collaros TD play in the last game of the year changed the mind set from "here we go again" to "Now we've got hope". No Collaros = No hope.

They had to play the regina crowd either way...? 
No one is arguing a rookie QB would have won.
Bunk is pretending you know who else Walters was targeting
I'm not basing things on feelings, I'm basing it on stats and facts.

[TBURGESS]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Streveler played and played well significant portions of the playoffs including that game in Regina. It wasn't all collaros. You said initially he was the big difference maker, I disagree,  it was the changes to the D that were the big difference maker because those guys were straight up dominant in that 2019 run. They ruined Dane Evans career they were so good.

Collaros was THE difference maker in 2019 and going forward. Without him we're back to being just another mid-tier team with a punchers chance in the playoffs. 

40 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

They had to play the regina crowd either way...? 
No one is arguing a rookie QB would have won.
Bunk is pretending you know who else Walters was targeting
I'm not basing things on feelings, I'm basing it on stats and facts.

They don't get past the first round of the playoffs without Collaros. That would be Regina if they don't win the last game of the season and they don't win that one without Collaros.

Anyone arguing that Collaros wasn't THE difference maker is arguing that a rookie QB would have won, because not having Collaros = Rookie QB. 

I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying outright that Collaros was the only available vet QB at the time we got him. Which other vet QB do you think was available at or slightly past the trade deadline?

I'm not basing things on feelings either. Even you admit that a rookie QB wouldn't have won, so it's a fact that No Collaros = No playoff wins in 2019. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TBURGESS

[Noeller]

2 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Collaros was THE difference maker in 2019 and going forward. Without him we're back to being just another mid-tier team with a punchers chance in the playoffs. 

They don't get past the first round of the playoffs without Collaros. That would be Regina if they don't win the last game of the season and they don't win that one without Collaros.

Anyone arguing that Collaros wasn't THE difference maker is arguing that a rookie QB would have won, because not having Collaros = Rookie QB. 

I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying outright that Collaros was the only available vet QB at the time we got him. Which other vet QB do you think was available at the trade deadline?

I'm not basing things on feelings either. Even you admit that a rookie QB wouldn't have won, so it's a fact that No Collaros = No playoff wins in 2019. 

I'm not arguing either side of this, but the straight facts from that time were that they reached out to Toronto about Collaros first and were rebuffed, so they went to both Drew Willy and Kevin Glenn, and both said no.... then at the "11th hour", after Toronto cleaned house, they doubled back to see if a deal could be done for Collaros. Toronto said yes, fully expecting to get him back in the off-season........ and the rest is history. 

[Bigblue204]

25 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Collaros was THE difference maker in 2019 and going forward. Without him we're back to being just another mid-tier team with a punchers chance in the playoffs. 

They don't get past the first round of the playoffs without Collaros. That would be Regina if they don't win the last game of the season and they don't win that one without Collaros.

Anyone arguing that Collaros wasn't THE difference maker is arguing that a rookie QB would have won, because not having Collaros = Rookie QB. 

I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying outright that Collaros was the only available vet QB at the time we got him. Which other vet QB do you think was available at or slightly past the trade deadline?

I'm not basing things on feelings either. Even you admit that a rookie QB wouldn't have won, so it's a fact that No Collaros = No playoff wins in 2019. 

No one is arguing against NO Collaros = NO playoff wins.

I'm saying, when it comes to the actual games that were played in the playoffs. The Defence was a larger factor in the victories than the Offense. The stats show that. Take Collaros' name out of it and look at the qb stats and tell me that's a fantastic game for a qb. Like others have said, he managed the game. He did not dominate it. The defense was a dominate factor in all 3 games. 

You literally said no collaros = no hope. Hope is a feeling.

 

[17to85]

4 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Rookie QB isn't likely to win in either Regina or Calgary, but the Regina crowd would have made it even harder. 

Streveler wasn't a rookie and had already won games in the cfl before... AND did more to win in calgary than collaros did anyway. 

 

The way the D was playing that post season no doubt  in my mind they could have won if they had to go with just streveler. If they hadn't improved the D though no way collaros would have won. Would have been no difference than the years Nichols was good in the post season and lost anyway because the D couldn't  seal the deal. 

[Fatty Liver]

46 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I'm not arguing either side of this, but the straight facts from that time were that they reached out to Toronto about Collaros first and were rebuffed, so they went to both Drew Willy and Kevin Glenn, and both said no.... then at the "11th hour", after Toronto cleaned house, they doubled back to see if a deal could be done for Collaros. Toronto said yes, fully expecting to get him back in the off-season........ and the rest is history. 

The Argos have certainly built an impressive roster over the last few years, who is the real architect, Pinball, Dinwiddie or John Murphy?

[TBURGESS]

46 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

No one is arguing against NO Collaros = NO playoff wins.

I'm saying, when it comes to the actual games that were played in the playoffs. The Defence was a larger factor in the victories than the Offense. The stats show that. Take Collaros' name out of it and look at the qb stats and tell me that's a fantastic game for a qb. Like others have said, he managed the game. He did not dominate it. The defense was a dominate factor in all 3 games. 

You literally said no collaros = no hope. Hope is a feeling.

 

You're arguing that the defense was a larger factor while agreeing the No Collaros = No playoff wins. Therefore: Without Collaros how good the defense was doesn't matter. 

A feeling that the Bombers got when Collaros made that amazing TD throw in the last game of the season. 

25 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Streveler wasn't a rookie and had already won games in the cfl before... AND did more to win in calgary than collaros did anyway. 

 

The way the D was playing that post season no doubt  in my mind they could have won if they had to go with just streveler. If they hadn't improved the D though no way collaros would have won. Would have been no difference than the years Nichols was good in the post season and lost anyway because the D couldn't  seal the deal. 

Streveler wasn't starting because he was injured. If we had to go with Strev and only Strev, he wouldn't have lasted the first game, let alone a second or a third. You want the difference to be the defence, but without Collaros it would have been a wasted effort.

[Bigblue204]

13 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

You're arguing that the defense was a larger factor while agreeing the No Collaros = No playoff wins. Therefore: Without Collaros how good the defense was doesn't matter. 

A feeling that the Bombers got when Collaros made that amazing TD throw in the last game of the season. 

Streveler wasn't starting because he was injured. If we had to go with Strev and only Strev, he wouldn't have lasted the first game, let alone a second or a third. You want the difference to be the defence, but without Collaros it would have been a wasted effort.

Lol it goes both ways. If the defense doesn't play well they don't win either lol. So all things being equal. As in, the defense playing well and Collaros on the team. Which side of the ball was the most influential in the 3 games?

You're talking about hypotheticals...if collaros wasn't here...if Streveler started....if if if. I'm talking facts, backed up by stats. 

[kelownabomberfan]

2 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Lol it goes both ways. If the defense doesn't play well they don't win either lol. So all things being equal. As in, the defense playing well and Collaros on the team. Which side of the ball was the most influential in the 3 games?

You're talking about hypotheticals...if collaros wasn't here...if Streveler started....if if if. I'm talking facts, backed up by stats. 

I still open up the 2019 Grey Cup once in awhile to watch Dane Evans walking off the field crying at half time.  That game had some of the best Defence I've ever seen.  The DL played like starving dogs and Evans was a flat-iron steak.

[17to85]

35 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

If we had to go with Strev and only Strev, he wouldn't have lasted the first game, let alone a second or a third

Bullshit,  he put the hard miles on his busted ankle and kept going because he was that kind of warrior.

[TBURGESS]

14 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

Lol it goes both ways. If the defense doesn't play well they don't win either lol. So all things being equal. As in, the defense playing well and Collaros on the team. Which side of the ball was the most influential in the 3 games?

You're talking about hypotheticals...if collaros wasn't here...if Streveler started....if if if. I'm talking facts, backed up by stats. 

The whole argument is hypothetical on both sides.

Stats don't tell the whole story. For example a 5 yard offensive play is a nothing burger stats wise, but it may be a TD or continue a drive at a major point in the game or extend a drive or help to drain the clock. Maybe it's a QB threading the needle. Maybe it's a receiver making a spectacular catch. Maybe it's a tipped ball at the LOS that still gets caught. 

All things being equal, a great defensive game will be over shadowed by bad QB play. For example: The Dinwiddie GC.