CFL - 2023 Regular Season - Discussion Thread

[GCn20]

1 minute ago, Fatty Liver said:

Walters announced during the off-season the 3rd QB would not be competing with Brown for the 2nd position but would be given a "Strev. like package" to work with.  7 games gone and we've seen none of that package yet, which could be helpful diversifying the offence.

In fairness, Prukop has only been here a couple weeks and who knows maybe Pigrome just couldn't execute the package we wanted from him.

2 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

I said this at the time. I got a bunch of responses about good Prukop is at short yardage. Something Darrin Bauming has been saying for a year and a half and people parrot. 

Are you suggesting Prukop is not good at short yardage?

[Fatty Liver]

4 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

I said this at the time. I got a bunch of responses about good Prukop is at short yardage. Something Darrin Bauming has been saying for a year and a half and people parrot. 

Prukop performed very well for most of last season, yet nobody was thrilled when he initially signed and he's not going to  sell any additional tickets.  Piggy lifted people out of their seats the first time he touched the ball, that much is frickin' obvious.  Colonel Tom wasn't no dummy.

[rebusrankin]

https://3downnation.com/2023/07/24/edmonton-elks-release-tobi-antigha-maurice-ffrench/

Would Antigha work as a rotational DE?

[GCn20]

3 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

https://3downnation.com/2023/07/24/edmonton-elks-release-tobi-antigha-maurice-ffrench/

Would Antigha work as a rotational DE?

He would be a good add for WIL and teams right now too. Some multi-position depth that is likely gonna come cheap if we want him. He's serviceable at both DE and WIL....I would be tempted.

Edited July 24, 2023 by GCn20

[wbbfan]

48 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I do agree that SY QB is a head scratcher. Always was to me. It's worked out for us but I would rather have a 3rd QB in development instead. Find a bonafide number 3 that is worthy of developing. We are one hit away from him being our backup. That being said, I honestly don't think the Bombers saw Pigrome in that way. We know he can run. Can he read a defence? Does he understand our game? Does he seem to be learning it? Does he have the arm? He hasn't answered a single question on my list and we are grousing about him as the one who got away. Seems very premature to me.

You’re right. He may not be able to do those things. In fact I would say he almost certainly lacks at those now. The question is can you develop those skills. At his age you should be able to polish him some. Where as prukop, is well past that point. 
 Even if it’s a chance of upside that’s more than no chance of upside, for the same ability. 
 

59 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Perhaps...or maybe he was a locker room cancer causing trouble because he didn't like his role? Can you say for sure that wasn't the case? Maybe, he was an ill fit in the QB room. All I'm saying is that we don't know. Pigrome and Prukop are probably about equal in ability. Maybe it was just that Prukop was a way better fit. Maybe, the Bombers coaches just saw something in Pigrome that leads them to believe his ceiling is a lot lower than what many think. Who knows. Certainly not you or I when it comes to something like that.

It is not drinking the koolaid to know that there is more to football than straight up skill evaluation. Gimme a break with that cock and bull. Don't lecture about drinking the koolaid when someone points out that Pigrome might be nothing more than a shiny bauble. You got a hate on for MOS roster management right now...I get that....but drinking the koolaid. FFS...smh.

Or maybe that 'upside" just isn't there.

I don’t think there is a chance we would’ve brought him in if that was the case. Players go through a lot of vetting with old coaches and team mates before getting signed. Especially guys on the NL for a year plus. 
 Also if he was toxic, he wouldn’t have made it out of mini camp, tc or through two pre season games and onto the active roster. No chance. 
 

I think it’s pure and simple familiarity breeding laziness. 

3 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

https://3downnation.com/2023/07/24/edmonton-elks-release-tobi-antigha-maurice-ffrench/

Would Antigha work as a rotational DE?

 

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

He would be a good add for WIL and teams right now too. Some multi-position depth that is likely gonna come cheap if we want him.

To me he’s replacement level. Fly in any imp and you won’t do worse. I wouldn’t give him reps over a young guy personally. 

[GCn20]

3 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

You’re right. He may not be able to do those things. In fact I would say he almost certainly lacks at those now. The question is can you develop those skills. At his age you should be able to polish him some. Where as prukop, is well past that point. 
 Even if it’s a chance of upside that’s more than no chance of upside, for the same ability. 
 

I don’t think there is a chance we would’ve brought him in if that was the case. Players go through a lot of vetting with old coaches and team mates before getting signed. Especially guys on the NL for a year plus. 
 Also if he was toxic, he wouldn’t have made it out of mini camp, tc or through two pre season games and onto the active roster. No chance. 
 

I think it’s pure and simple familiarity breeding laziness. 

Hey, let me be clear, I have given a bunch of scenarios on why the Bombers might have let him go. I most certainly am not discounting the possibility that this was a blunder either. Just not willing to concede that at this point as a certainty that's all. I think we have to wait and see on this one and time will tell.

Like I said earlier, I don`t get the SY specialist thing. I am certainly not suggesting that Prukop is our ideal number 3, Far from it. I would love to see the next gen Bomber and league MOP sitting in our number 3 right now. That being said, none of us have a hot clue whether Pigrome was that guy or not.

Edited July 24, 2023 by GCn20

[wbbfan]

3 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Hey, let me be clear, I have given a bunch of scenarios on why the Bombers might have let him go. I most certainly am not discounting the possibility that this was a blunder either. Just not willing to concede that at this point as a certainty that's all. I think we have to wait and see on this one and time will tell.

I get it. For me, it’s a reverse onus on mos. He’s made soo many bad roster management moves and hand cuffed our depth soo much that he doesn’t get any benefit of the doubt. When it comes to culture and his drive and commitment sure. 
He made that weird jump from sts coach to hc and was bad at roster construction and management. And he hasn’t improved at those facets at all. 

[Mark F]

1 hour ago, Geebrr said:

I said this at the time. I got a bunch of responses about good Prukop is at short yardage. Something Darrin Bauming has been saying for a year and a half and people parrot. 

it is on the surface, odd to have a player who only carrries the ball a few times a game, to get a first down. third and short.

the play is highly predictable.... 9 time in 10 they run into the line.

put in an actual ball carrier to do this. a running back, receiver, kick returner.   if they bust through, they could score from anywhere.  prukop will get caught. 

do something different once in a while.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mark F

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, Mark F said:

it is on the surface, odd to have a player who only carrries the ball a few times a game, to get a first down. third and short.

the play is highly predictable.... 9 time in 10 they run into the line.

put in an actual ball carrier to do this. a running back, receiver, kick returner.   if they bust through, they could score from anywhere.  prukop will get caught. 

do something different once in a while.

I think a strong kr/rb especially an athletic ni is the perfect guy to train for these kinds of roles. 

[Pepper_Brooks]

The coaches devote 60+ hours a week to working closely with the players and reviewing game and practice film. Our exposure to the players is limited to brief media clips and a 3-hour game each week. It would be asinine to presume that we possess even a fraction of the insight into player personnel decisions that the coaching staff has.

[TrueBlue4ever]

4 hours ago, wbbfan said:

I get it. For me, it’s a reverse onus on mos. He’s made soo many bad roster management moves and hand cuffed our depth soo much that he doesn’t get any benefit of the doubt. When it comes to culture and his drive and commitment sure. 
He made that weird jump from sts coach to hc and was bad at roster construction and management. And he hasn’t improved at those facets at all. 

It’s broad inflammatory generalizations like this that make me largely dismiss this and any claim about our roster management “problem”.  Don’t know how any coach could be bad at roster construction and never improve at all (as you say), and in the same breath go from 5-13 to winning 10+ games for 6 straight seasons and counting, 3 straight Grey Cup appearances and back-to-back wins. Bad rosters lose games, good ones win championships. And it’s not like our win was a surprise one-off in a sea of failure.

I can get into the “this was a strange cut keeping this guy over that one” debates, but some of the language used seems so over the top that the argument loses a lot of its validity. It’s like Mike’s “is this the year fans turn on OSH?” question was taken as a challenge by some on this board to be first in line to be able to say “I told you so” with any loss. Arguments like “putrid”, “he will inevitably lead us to a loss again”, “totally useless”, and “we win despite him” are so full of hyperbole that it’s hard to take them seriously. 

In the interest of expanding the discussion and giving you some benefit of the doubt (more than you will give O’Shea) I can agree that some cuts seem odd (I figured Caleb Thomas would have hung around after the pre-season, and pulling the plug on Pigrome at first blush seemed like a knee-jerk rush to judgment when Prukop shook loose), but can you identify a player cut in camp in any of the past few years who another team has scooped up and gone on to be a regular player, or a star, or better than what we have starting for us? I ask legitimately, I have not tracked it enough to remember who would stand out as a complete whiff by the coaches. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrueBlue4ever

[ShyGuy]

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Short yardage as a full time dedicated roster spot is insane as well. In the cfl you need all the qb depth you can get. In general in football your qb fortunes can turn on a dime and your franchise with it. 
 Qb sneak is the easiest damn play in football. It’s 99% ol and 1% not messing up. Holder on fg kicks, long snapper etc are way more important. 

I dont think football coaches with a legitimate MVP quarterback stay up at night working about QB Depth. I always fondly remember someone asking the Colts OC why their Peyton's backups didn't get more reps, "Fellas, if 18 goes down we're ******, and we don't practice ******." Probably pretty similar to how everyone feels about Collaros.

 

[17to85]

So the staff does some odd things like dress people to stand on the sidelines all game... but other things are massively overblown.  For example most people would have just dropped Richie walker in preseason yet here we are seeing him play pretty well... so the coaches do have some kind of clue we as fans don't.  

Again there's some flaws but not nearly as significant as fans make it out to be after a couple losses early in the year.

[wbbfan]

3 hours ago, Pepper_Brooks said:

The coaches devote 60+ hours a week to working closely with the players and reviewing game and practice film. Our exposure to the players is limited to brief media clips and a 3-hour game each week. It would be asinine to presume that we possess even a fraction of the insight into player personnel decisions that the coaching staff has.

Not when other teams scout our cuts and do extremely well. Also, cfl teams don’t have extensive practice film. 90% of all film teams have is from tsn cameras. They get un cut and wide angles etc we don’t get. But teams are lucky to have one guy with a cam out side of that  

 

2 hours ago, KshyGuy said:

I dont think football coaches with a legitimate MVP quarterback stay up at night working about QB Depth. I always fondly remember someone asking the Colts OC why their Peyton's backups didn't get more reps, "Fellas, if 18 goes down we're ******, and we don't practice ******." Probably pretty similar to how everyone feels about Collaros.

 

teams that don’t develop the next QBs quickly sink back to the bottom of the standings. Dynasties ALL develop their next qb. The guy who replaced Peyton was pretty good too  

 

2 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

It’s broad inflammatory generalizations like this that make me largely dismiss this and any claim about our roster management “problem”.  Don’t know how any coach could be bad at roster construction and never improve at all (as you say), and in the same breath go from 5-13 to winning 10+ games for 6 straight seasons and counting, 3 straight Grey Cup appearances and back-to-back wins. Bad rosters lose games, good ones win championships. And it’s not like our win was a surprise one-off in a sea of failure.

I can get into the “this was a strange cut keeping this guy over that one” debates, but some of the language used seems so over the top that the argument loses a lot of its validity. It’s like Mike’s “is this the year fans turn on OSH?” question was taken as a challenge by some on this board to be first in line to be able to say “I told you so” with any loss. Arguments like “putrid”, “he will inevitably lead us to a loss again”, “totally useless”, and “we win despite him” are so full of hyperbole that it’s hard to take them seriously. 

In the interest of expanding the discussion and giving you some benefit of the doubt (more than you will give O’Shea) I can agree that some cuts seem odd (I figured Caleb Thomas would have hung around after the pre-season, and pulling the plug on Pigrome at first blush seemed like a knee-jerk rush to judgment when Prukop shook loose), but can you identify a player cut in camp in any of the past few years who another team has scooped up and gone on to be a regular player, or a star, or better than what we have starting for us? I ask legitimately, I have not tracked it enough to remember who would stand out as a complete whiff by the coaches. 

it’s pretty easy really. We had a stretch of some of the best drafts in history that saw us pumping out excellent starters with rounds 1-3 including rolling over TON of high end ni ol. Book end that with the greatest qb come back of all time and two of the best imo tackles of an era and fantastic cfl free agent pick ups like biggie Willy and a few dbs. The 19/21 rosters were insanely deep. We had back ups and multiple starters jump to the nfl. More than the previous 20 years worth of teams. 

22 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So the staff does some odd things like dress people to stand on the sidelines all game... but other things are massively overblown.  For example most people would have just dropped Richie walker in preseason yet here we are seeing him play pretty well... so the coaches do have some kind of clue we as fans don't.  

Again there's some flaws but not nearly as significant as fans make it out to be after a couple losses early in the year.

And refuse to make use of a naturalized ni, or dress no back up cover guys, dbs, start dead weight lbers etc. 

 walker has become more productive and that’s great. But the problem still exists and is the same as last year when we had sayles who was even better. This D needs a nose. walker isn’t soo good that he offsets that loss. He’s gone from a none factor to good in a couple games. 
 

The last time we had a qb get hit soo frequently on a regular basis drew Willy happened. And the last time collaros was hit this much the world thought his career was over. 

[17to85]

Again, a lot of these issues are far overblown. We don't have a nose... is that a coach issue or a gm issue? Collaros is getting hit and the OL are struggling... well we got pieces on the roster to try and change that up, coaching to not make the switch, but also patience is part of what makes the coaches here good so, as fans we should have some patience.  

We lost some depth to the NFL, to other teams and to the salary cap, that hurts, so we can't blame the coaches entirely on that. 

As I said, it's not as bad as some of you guys want to make it seem. A lot of it simply boils down  to oshea has more patience. 

[Booch]

41 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So the staff does some odd things like dress people to stand on the sidelines all game... but other things are massively overblown.  For example most people would have just dropped Richie walker in preseason yet here we are seeing him play pretty well... so the coaches do have some kind of clue we as fans don't.  

Again there's some flaws but not nearly as significant as fans make it out to be after a couple losses early in the year.

Walker had a pretty good pre-season...and I actually commented that he had a bit more explosion/pop to his game and looked like transformed his body a bit...had a slow start but last 3 games has been good...Thomas and Bennett did jack **** in TC...and have done similar in the games so far, tho I will say last game was probably Bennett's best to date....but a 27 yr old rookie is always a dumb pick if its your first....man playing against boys...and wasting a DA spot on a fullback...when u had zero depth on defense, right after a game where that lack of depth had a major cause in the loss is not acceptable....and its not about patience....it was just plain dumb...If anyone can give an even remotely intelligent reason as to why he would do that...I'm all ears but that was a coaching gaff we were lucky to not suffer from 2 weeks in a row

Its not sky is falling bad, and end of the road/world.....but needs some serious looking at...Osh has his whole career as the HC made a lot of questionable roster moves and game day depth charts....yeah we won more than we lost....I'd call that lucky a fair bit, and a direct result of Walters giving the team some quality guys, at right time, in prime of their careers that made that happen....and yes...in spite of some questionable moves....no coach is perfect, and many have flaws they have always fell back on...Osh is no different, but he also has to step away from the coach Ritchie syndrome of clinging to vets he loved too long, or not letting emerging guys get a chance to shine...even in bit roles while the vets are still here

[SpeedFlex27]

7 hours ago, BigBlueFanatic said:

O’Shea’s own words, “it doesn’t have to look like last week, or last year.  It just has to look like a win”

Prukop may very well get back to excelling at his given role.  Pigrome seems to be doing the same but with that upside we now have no chance of seeing in blue and gold.

Yep & that's what ate at me all game yesterday watching Pigrome play for Ottawa. We gave up a promising prospect for a has been journeyman.

[wbbfan]

39 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Again, a lot of these issues are far overblown. We don't have a nose... is that a coach issue or a gm issue? Collaros is getting hit and the OL are struggling... well we got pieces on the roster to try and change that up, coaching to not make the switch, but also patience is part of what makes the coaches here good so, as fans we should have some patience.  

We lost some depth to the NFL, to other teams and to the salary cap, that hurts, so we can't blame the coaches entirely on that. 

As I said, it's not as bad as some of you guys want to make it seem. A lot of it simply boils down  to oshea has more patience. 

Considering we brought in 4 different modes, it’s not the gm lol. 
 No, but any hc could’ve won with the 19 run and 21 gc roster. 
 It’s not patience when you’re dealing with a none pro quality player / none starter quality in this league. 
 We keep running out the same ol and people will change their tune, again, very quickly. Win going into a bye and people forget the massive bullet we dodged when collaros limping in ott  

 

23 minutes ago, Booch said:

Walker had a pretty good pre-season...and I actually commented that he had a bit more explosion/pop to his game and looked like transformed his body a bit...had a slow start but last 3 games has been good...Thomas and Bennett did jack **** in TC...and have done similar in the games so far, tho I will say last game was probably Bennett's best to date....but a 27 yr old rookie is always a dumb pick if its your first....man playing against boys...and wasting a DA spot on a fullback...when u had zero depth on defense, right after a game where that lack of depth had a major cause in the loss is not acceptable....and its not about patience....it was just plain dumb...If anyone can give an even remotely intelligent reason as to why he would do that...I'm all ears but that was a coaching gaff we were lucky to not suffer from 2 weeks in a row

Its not sky is falling bad, and end of the road/world.....but needs some serious looking at...Osh has his whole career as the HC made a lot of questionable roster moves and game day depth charts....yeah we won more than we lost....I'd call that lucky a fair bit, and a direct result of Walters giving the team some quality guys, at right time, in prime of their careers that made that happen....and yes...in spite of some questionable moves....no coach is perfect, and many have flaws they have always fell back on...Osh is no different, but he also has to step away from the coach Ritchie syndrome of clinging to vets he loved too long, or not letting emerging guys get a chance to shine...even in bit roles while the vets are still here

idk if Bennett took a step forward, or if he was just playing against some burned toast. But at this point I don’t hold much hope of him being a fraction as good as kongbo at any point in his time here. 

[Mark F]

I think the Grey Cups were helped a lot by arrival of Ringmaiden,

now , player wise, we are seeing the effect of him going to B.C.

we are losing ground, and B.C. is on the upswing.

losing him was unfortunate.

I also think willie J.  is in on too many plays.  wont be able to sustain the effort. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mark F

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

39 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Considering we brought in 4 different modes, it’s not the gm lol. 
 No, but any hc could’ve won with the 19 run and 21 gc roster. 
 

 

 

However, there's no shortage of players who credit Osh with the positive playing culture, and by extension, the reason why many have taken reduced $ to play here.

So, you may be right about any HC winning with our recent rosters, but those rosters wouldn't have been here with any coach.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Pete Catan's Ghost

[Pepper_Brooks]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Not when other teams scout our cuts and do extremely well. Also, cfl teams don’t have extensive practice film. 90% of all film teams have is from tsn cameras. They get un cut and wide angles etc we don’t get. But teams are lucky to have one guy with a cam out side of that  

These points don't invalidate the  information asymmetry that I was highlighting. It's foolish to assume that we possess any valuable insights into player personnel decisions that may not make sense at face value. Such thinking constitutes an logical fallacy.

[ShyGuy]

2 hours ago, wbbfan said:

 

teams that don’t develop the next QBs quickly sink back to the bottom of the standings. Dynasties ALL develop their next qb. The guy who replaced Peyton was pretty good too  

 

Different situation in the NFL obviously because you can get a QB in the draft, but Peyton and Luck were never on the same roster. Manning messing up his neck had the Colts suck for Luck, and Peyton was released to join the Broncos. Manning managed to get Osweiler a fat contract as his backup, and when he retired he was succeeded by Trever Simian, Paxton Lynch (remember him?!?) and then Case Keenum over the next 3 years... so not exactly anyone to write home about.

2 success stories I can actually think about in the NFL are Rivers to Herbert, and Smith to Mahomes. The NFL is quite a different beast though, the quality of QBs sitting on the bench is obviously far higher.

[17to85]

2 hours ago, Booch said:

date....but a 27 yr old rookie is always a dumb pick if its your first....man playing against boys.

On this point in particular they flat-out said they were picking with the hope he could full a rotational need and being older he might be more ready... so that was the plan that walters had. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they're not trying to get Kongo because clearly they want to get back to the kind of rotation they had with him. 

 

Also, you've hated Jake Thomas for years. 

[Booch]

As he's been sub far for them

[GCn20]

I just think that sometimes as fans we take a decision like starting Maruo (who played pretty well btw) and we isolate it and put it in a bubble, fill it with hot air until it becomes a "is this the year fans turn on MOS" type of thread. Great for discussion but overblown.

We are 5-2 with all 5 victories being by pretty decent margins. Yea...we crapped the bed in a couple games...and that's not something we are used to seeing, but we are in very decent shape through 7 games. Even in 2021, a year many of us hold up as maybe the greatest single season in Bomber history many of our victories came late in games and were pretty tight until we blew it open in the 4th Q..

Edited July 25, 2023 by GCn20