Bombers @ LOLKs: Week Of Aug 10 Thread

[Booch]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Problem that hasn’t been analyzed as fully in the whole “roster management” debate is that these moves aren’t made in a vacuum, and most every roster switch requires a counter measure. So if you pull Jackson for Fox as an example, we now have no fullback on the roster, since Miller is still hurt. So one possibility is that Jackson is used as the DA because of ratio rules and we need that Canadian  starter on the roster on offence. Or we make another counter measure like benching Bailey for O’Leary-Orange. 

Now I don’t pretend to have the answers here, would be happy to  have others explain a scenario that works that keeps players at every position and factors in the ratio requirements. Easy to say we need another DL or that Jake Thomas should be sat, but it isn’t as simple as that with the Canadian ratio rules or the snap limit and eligibility years required for the DA. Fortunately the powers that be have found a way to manage it adequately enough to keep us winning a lot more than not. 

Two random questions for those more in the know. First, I don’t see where Jamal Parker had any more significant college experience returning punts than McCrae (Parker had only 2 punt returns in his 4 year career in college, McCrae zero) but certainly had more experience as a kick returner (which McCrae also did, but in a more limited capacity). So the first question is: is there any significant difference in fielding punts vs kickoffs?  I’ve certainly seen specialists in each area, and some like Grant handle both jobs very well, but are there any factors that make one more technically difficult than the other?

Second question regarding fatigue and the need for rotational players. Are certain positions more prone to players getting gassed than others? If so, which ones and why? I have my ideas but want to hear from those in the know. Thanks in advance. 

Burtenshaw is back...who could do it...Heck we have used Gray there, and we have had several games with no full back even listed. Jackson burning a DA spot at that position has no bearing, or is not caused by anything else ratio wise...We start 8 canadians...6 on offence..2 on defence....so if there is only 1 declared to be a defensive starting Canadian, which is whatwe have done....then Thomas can come out all game and be replaced by FOX...Haba...Gurbutt....and extra DB...hence why the burning of a DA on a FB is even more pointless all thigs considered.\

Also factor i if Osh would put aside his stubbornness of that new rule...which all teams but  us use, we would be even more well set up to really dominate and have fresh legs coming in and out .

Parker had 2 college returns, but was the in game back-up...so practiced it often I am told, and it is apparent watching the 2 guys field kicks...and fielding kicks vs a punt is like night and day and some guys just cant comfortably do it...and to risk things with a guy not comfortable at it...when 80 percent of punts are fielded inside your 20 yard line is playing with fire when there is no need too...especially when the guy better at it can do so much on defence, while the other is sure nice on offence....but not needed nearly as much...we have too many guys as it is to spread the ball around as it is, and why take away targets from Lawler...Schoen...Demski....not necessary

Dline is the spot that needs the most rotation, as you are playing a guessing game, in pursuit, and being reactive...O-line not so much as they are being the aggressor and know the play call and the responsibility...it's a huge difference

 

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Problem that hasn’t been analyzed as fully in the whole “roster management” debate is that these moves aren’t made in a vacuum, and most every roster switch requires a counter measure. So if you pull Jackson for Fox as an example, we now have no fullback on the roster, since Miller is still hurt. So one possibility is that Jackson is used as the DA because of ratio rules and we need that Canadian  starter on the roster on offence. Or we make another counter measure like benching Bailey for O’Leary-Orange. 

Now I don’t pretend to have the answers here, would be happy to  have others explain a scenario that works that keeps players at every position and factors in the ratio requirements. Easy to say we need another DL or that Jake Thomas should be sat, but it isn’t as simple as that with the Canadian ratio rules or the snap limit and eligibility years required for the DA. Fortunately the powers that be have found a way to manage it adequately enough to keep us winning a lot more than not. 

Two random questions for those more in the know. First, I don’t see where Jamal Parker had any more significant college experience returning punts than McCrae (Parker had only 2 punt returns in his 4 year career in college, McCrae zero) but certainly had more experience as a kick returner (which McCrae also did, but in a more limited capacity). So the first question is: is there any significant difference in fielding punts vs kickoffs?  I’ve certainly seen specialists in each area, and some like Grant handle both jobs very well, but are there any factors that make one more technically difficult than the other?

Second question regarding fatigue and the need for rotational players. Are certain positions more prone to players getting gassed than others? If so, which ones and why? I have my ideas but want to hear from those in the know. Thanks in advance. 

The DA has no requirements for experience or snap count.  Only rule is they have to sub in for another American.  The Bombers haven't been using the nationalized player rule since Grant has been out.  The DA is what was formerly called the Designated Import.

They haven't used Jackson on offense more than 10 snaps a game when he's dressed and they have 7 OL dressed.

They have Augustine who should be able to function as a second back to throw a block, line up off the tackle and come across to throw a split block on an end backside, arc block backside. They bring in Demski or Bailey or Wolitarsky often when they go max protect.  To me they want Jackson on the roster more for special teams reasons and it's an incredible luxury.  Somewhat unreasonable given how thin the DL is on the roster particularly with Jeffcoat's ongoing injury issues.

Defensive players should be going full speed from snap to whistle every play.  You need way more subs there than on offense where you're really subbing guys to give different looks more than anything else.  Running backs might need a break, receivers if they have a big play or take a hit, but for the most part guys like Schoen, Lawler might leave the field for 3-4 snaps in a whole game.

Balls kicked off a tee have way less spin than a ball kicked off a drop, especially as the punters have worked on developing that, something that comes natural to the guys who are rugby/Aussie Rules players.  Ball kicked off a tee is tumbling end over end, a ball kicked of a drop could be spinning a variety of ways and they all break differently.  They have to decide where and when to catch it, have some eyes on the coverage but mostly on the ball.  Spiral punts (basically what anyone would do if you tossed them a ball and told them to punt it, assuming they hit it square, hold ball vertical) a lot of guys can catch on the run, but you see from watching McCrae and Parker the past few games they haven't caught any on the run, think Parker maybe did once but also let the ball hit the turf a bunch of times.  A lot of the punters now are doing drop punts which is straight out of rugby.  They rotate the opposite of the spiral punt and is what the NFL wants for those kicks to pin teams inside the 10 because it should hit the turf and bounce back into the field, not into the endzone.  Punter will hold the ball horizontal and basically drop it down to their toe.

A lot of the issues with catching the ball in general is what you see with punts.  Need to catch with hands, secure in arms, not let it get into shoulder pads that's when you see the bobble.  Need to track the ball and look it in, obviously not easy when you're going to get cranked.

[JuranBoldenRules]

The other guy that would be easy to replace and leave McCrae on as a useful tailback (don't think Augustine is at all) is Darby.  You have Parker on as a special teams ace and backup across the secondary with some role in different packages.

Parker on for Darby

Fox on for Jackson

Then you keep McCrae on, you can use Augustine as more of a 2 back, fullback type because if you needed another tailback to fill in you have McCrae who would sub in for a receiver in that case with BOLO getting some reps.

 

[Booch]

at this moment...with all our offensive guys healthy we wouldn't even need Mcrae...I'd like to see Haba when healthy, or Garbutt now in his spot to see how a rotation of the Jeffs...Fox and Walker and Thomas/Lawson and Haba and Garbutt...and truth be told...Those 8....would give defenses fits, as everyone would be fresh.

Too bad Leggs didnt work out as having to DA and American at kicker limits your roster

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 minute ago, Booch said:

at this moment...with all our offensive guys healthy we wouldn't even need Mcrae...I'd like to see Haba when healthy, or Garbutt now in his spot to see how a rotation of the Jeffs...Fox and Walker and Thomas/Lawson and Haba and Garbutt...and truth be told...Those 8....would give defenses fits, as everyone would be fresh.

Too bad Leggs didnt work out as having to DA and American at kicker limits your roster

I think we do need McCrae for a few reasons.  He's the backup tailback.  He's the only guy we can line up in the backfield who is going to widen out the D, even if they use Demski as a tailback at times.  They'll be pretty sad if Oliviera goes down and they have to play most of a game with Augustine.  Need to do better to integrate McCrae into run game.

If they are going to use 8 DL they'll need an end or two in that group to be capable special teams players.  If we ever get to 8 it will be with Hansen, not 2 designated imports

[Booch]

6 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

I think we do need McCrae for a few reasons.  He's the backup tailback.  He's the only guy we can line up in the backfield who is going to widen out the D, even if they use Demski as a tailback at times.  They'll be pretty sad if Oliviera goes down and they have to play most of a game with Augustine.  Need to do better to integrate McCrae into run game.

If they are going to use 8 DL they'll need an end or two in that group to be capable special teams players.  If we ever get to 8 it will be with Hansen, not 2 designated imports

Haba played the teams....Gurbutt was on them today from what I watched....so I'm sure they will be fine there as well

And in game if BO goes down...we can get by with Augustine and a run game by committee anyway...and fact of the matter, once Grant is back he is likely off the roster anyway....so may as well do some things now with him off, and see what results are.

We aren't gonna sot Bailey/lawler or Schoen for Mcrae....Miller will do what Jackson does....and better....so the smart money would be to add a dlineman with Jacksons spot...considering we have played games without Jackson and did jut fine with the limited full back package

Edited August 7, 2023 by Booch

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, Booch said:

at this moment...with all our offensive guys healthy we wouldn't even need Mcrae...I'd like to see Haba when healthy, or Garbutt now in his spot to see how a rotation of the Jeffs...Fox and Walker and Thomas/Lawson and Haba and Garbutt...and truth be told...Those 8....would give defenses fits, as everyone would be fresh.

Too bad Leggs didnt work out as having to DA and American at kicker limits your roster

This is a great point. The touches that would go to him should go to Demski and Bailey. 

[Booch]

9 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

This is a great point. The touches that would go to him should go to Demski and Bailey. 

yup....right now....its a luxury we dont really need...defense will be better served with an impact body

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

Just watched the recap of BanjoBowl 2019 and the Offence that we field today is so superior to that one (possible exception being the OLine) that it would make your head spin. 

Even then, with Streveler (for Nichols), Augustine (for Harris), Peterman and the rest, we wiped the field with the Riders. 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Pete Catan's Ghost

[Booch]

Just now, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

Just watched the recap of BanjoBowl 2019 and the Offence that we field today is so superior to that one (possible exception being the OLine) that it would make your head spin. 

Even then, Streveler (for Nichols), Augustine (for Harris), Peterman and the rest, we wiped the field with the Riders. 

 

yeah...we have had quite the evolution

[TrueBlue4ever]

2 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

The DA has no requirements for experience or snap count.  Only rule is they have to sub in for another American.  The Bombers haven't been using the nationalized player rule since Grant has been out.  The DA is what was formerly called the Designated Import.

They haven't used Jackson on offense more than 10 snaps a game when he's dressed and they have 7 OL dressed.

They have Augustine who should be able to function as a second back to throw a block, line up off the tackle and come across to throw a split block on an end backside, arc block backside. They bring in Demski or Bailey or Wolitarsky often when they go max protect.  To me they want Jackson on the roster more for special teams reasons and it's an incredible luxury.  Somewhat unreasonable given how thin the DL is on the roster particularly with Jeffcoat's ongoing injury issues.

Defensive players should be going full speed from snap to whistle every play.  You need way more subs there than on offense where you're really subbing guys to give different looks more than anything else.  Running backs might need a break, receivers if they have a big play or take a hit, but for the most part guys like Schoen, Lawler might leave the field for 3-4 snaps in a whole game.

Balls kicked off a tee have way less spin than a ball kicked off a drop, especially as the punters have worked on developing that, something that comes natural to the guys who are rugby/Aussie Rules players.  Ball kicked off a tee is tumbling end over end, a ball kicked of a drop could be spinning a variety of ways and they all break differently.  They have to decide where and when to catch it, have some eyes on the coverage but mostly on the ball.  Spiral punts (basically what anyone would do if you tossed them a ball and told them to punt it, assuming they hit it square, hold ball vertical) a lot of guys can catch on the run, but you see from watching McCrae and Parker the past few games they haven't caught any on the run, think Parker maybe did once but also let the ball hit the turf a bunch of times.  A lot of the punters now are doing drop punts which is straight out of rugby.  They rotate the opposite of the spiral punt and is what the NFL wants for those kicks to pin teams inside the 10 because it should hit the turf and bounce back into the field, not into the endzone.  Punter will hold the ball horizontal and basically drop it down to their toe.

A lot of the issues with catching the ball in general is what you see with punts.  Need to catch with hands, secure in arms, not let it get into shoulder pads that's when you see the bobble.  Need to track the ball and look it in, obviously not easy when you're going to get cranked.

Sorry, I was referring to DA as the “Nationalized American”, not the designated import position.  Is Jackson being used as the designated import or the Nationalized American (the latter is how I was interpreting Booch’s comments)? I don’t really get the point of the “designated import” ruling anyway. Why do you have to declare the spot?

[JuranBoldenRules]

53 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Sorry, I was referring to DA as the “Nationalized American”, not the designated import position.  Is Jackson being used as the designated import or the Nationalized American (the latter is how I was interpreting Booch’s comments)? I don’t really get the point of the “designated import” ruling anyway. Why do you have to declare the spot?

Jackson couldn't be the nationalized American as he doesn't have the CFL tenure.  The only guy we've declared so far in any game in that spot is Janarion Grant.  The nationalized American takes up one of the designated spots if it is used by teams.

Teams need 7 Canadian starters, so there's 16 American spots and a QB.  The other 4 non-QB Americans on the roster are "designated" meaning they can only sub in for another American when they come into the game on offense and defense.  They don't monitor subs on special teams.  Teams declare the number of Canadian starters they have on offense and defense (so if you start 6 on O and 1 on D you always have to have that number of Canadians on the field for O or D, you can have more but not less), along with their 4 designated Americans (imports).

[Noeller]

[Pepper_Brooks]

I do wish they'd incorporate the individuals from the 6 game IR within these press releases. This provides an inaccurate portrayal of our injury situation. That said all considered we're doing pretty well for this point of the season

[JuranBoldenRules]

59 minutes ago, Pepper_Brooks said:

I do wish they'd incorporate the individuals from the 6 game IR within these press releases. This provides an inaccurate portrayal of our injury situation. That said all considered we're doing pretty well for this point of the season

And why even list Parker if he's practicing?

[Super Duper Negatron]

3 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

And why even list Parker if he's practicing?

Game Status questionable, I suppose.

I agree with the coifed hound - the 6 gamers should be on there.

[Booch]

2 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

Game Status questionable, I suppose.

I agree with the coifed hound - the 6 gamers should be on there.

Injury report tho is just for practice eligible players....6 gamers are not eligible.....so don't get included....

[JuranBoldenRules]

4 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

Game Status questionable, I suppose.

I agree with the coifed hound - the 6 gamers should be on there.

I'm guessing they have to list someone.

McCrae, Jackson would all be questionable too.  Lawrence is practicing so he'd probably be easy to slam on there.

[Noeller]

Geno Lewis out this week: 
 

 

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

19 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Geno Lewis out this week: 
 

 

Lewis and Lawler should get together and buy Coach Jones some kind of appreciation gift. 

[bearpants]

On 2023-08-07 at 5:56 PM, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

Just watched the recap of BanjoBowl 2019 and the Offence that we field today is so superior to that one (possible exception being the OLine) that it would make your head spin. 

Even then, with Streveler (for Nichols), Augustine (for Harris), Peterman and the rest, we wiped the field with the Riders. 

 

Dammit I need to get a lot of work done today... but now I'm tempted to do something else

[Bigblue204]

33 minutes ago, bearpants said:

Dammit I need to get a lot of work done today... but now I'm tempted to do something else

I got a few reports I need to get done....some background banjo bowl might be in order!!

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

5 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

I got a few reports I need to get done....some background banjo bowl might be in order!!

The one long run by Streveler ranks up there with Mike Sellars best work…. As fine a piece of carnage as you’ll ever see. 

[Tracker]

15 hours ago, Noeller said:

Geno Lewis out this week: 
 

 

Oh, dear. Does that mean that the Ilks are likely to lose to the Bombers now?

[Wideleft]

54 minutes ago, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

The one long run by Streveler ranks up there with Mike Sellars best work…. As fine a piece of carnage as you’ll ever see. 

https://www.bluebombers.com/2019/09/07/streveler-is-a-man-on-a-mission/

(video)