Free Agent Exodus

[Floyd]

yeah but this is entirely a different thing we're talking about here. Your original point was that it was easier to lose Muamba than say an o-linemen, I disagreed simply because you can set your ratio anyway you want. The biggest thing screwing the Bombers ratio right now is their choice at safety busting and them using an american there. The plan was clearly a LB and safety on D and that's not working. Honestly I'd rather they used a defensive lineman as the 2nd NI on D but I guess they don't have anyone they feel is a full time guy there, but then again they gotta be as full time there as Cauchy is.

 

Well, this is the legacy of the Mack era...  Mack scouts a a new talent and we cut a vet before the replacement has proven anything.  We sit and watch while the new guys 'grows into' the position.  Repeat.

[rebusrankin]

Hypothetical, if both Mulumba and Bilikudi come to camp in 2014 that could be 2 NIs on the DL who could start. That would be huge. Any good NI FA OL?

[iso_55]

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

[Mark H.]

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

 

Except that many of our NI OL are unproven. Muamba is an MLB who has proven he can be effective at his position.

 

If we lose him and don't have an NI for the starting safety position, we'll need at least 4 NIs on the OL. Who would they be?

[SPuDS]

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

we can lose any canadian player... its gonna hurt. losing muamba who is an ST monster and a ratio buster who plays a traditional non imp position as well as an american is a painful painful blow.. easily as painful as losing labatte. how you cant see this astounds me, seeing that you follow the cfl so closely.. muamba is a rarity.. he is an exception... we have essentially built our ratio around him..

not an easy thing to just lose and go "oh ok, throw an american there.. we can just balance it out later.." we lose an american in a skill spot when we do that..

[17to85]

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

Who replaces Muamba as the top NI on the team? Until you answer that your argument falls flat.

[Atomic]

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

Who replaces Muamba as the top NI on the team? Until you answer that your argument falls flat.

Watson when healthy... Otherwise, Greaves or Kohlert I suppose.

Hard times.

[iso_55]

 

Right now... we can lose Muamba. We can also replace him easier thaan it was to replace Brendan LaBatte. It won't be easy but it won't be that hard either. Most Canadian starters are on the OL on most teams, Bombers included. So the teams load up there. It would be foolish to play, say... 4 Americans on the OL & use Canadians elsewhere.

Who replaces Muamba as the top NI on the team? Until you answer that your argument falls flat.

 

That's what our scouts get paid the big bucks for... As you said, our top NI doesn't have to be Muamba. If he leaves they'll have to replace him anyway with an American, I'd guess. For 2014, the ratio would then be changed around to reflect Muamba's gone. How  many starting Canadian MLBs are there in the CFL?

[DR. CFL]

One other issue teams deal with in terms of their starting NIMPS is having a viable backup at the starters spot. If Muamba goes down the next guy in at that spot is Labbe. We all know the sentiment of him as a starting MAC. That has to be part of any plan when placing your starting NIPs. Do you have ta major fall off when you have to sub for him? Hence the challenge at DL, MAC, corner.

[OldSchoolBlue]

 

 

I'm pretty sure Henoc would be considered among the better NIs in the league and he's young and getting better.

He's one of our sure fire starters.

Can we easily dismiss him and say buh bye. I don't think so.

We have to fight to keep him.

Fight to keep him, yes. But again, if he doesn't want to be here well we need to move on. We have to focus on the future. Would I like him to be in our future, yes. If Muamba's agent holds the Bombers up for ranson or as leverage to get more money off another team then let him go. We can easily replace a Canadian MLB with an American without missing a beat. On the OL, losing a Canadian like Labatte hurts a lot more than if we lost Muamba as the OL is considered a Canadian position & MLB an American one. You build your Canadian talent from the OL out...

 

 

See, this is a theory that will soon get debunked.  There is some great Canadian talent out there in every position.  It doesn't matter if it's o-line, receiver, linebacker.  You build your Canadian talent by finding quality Canadians at any position.  

 

Saying the MLB position is an American position is like saying the RB is an Amercian position. It's an old-fashioned way of thinking in my mind. 

 

Now If you had said the word "primarily" I could have accepted that. 

 

 

Well yes and no. It's great to have a young NI starter like Muamba at a position typically taken by an import. The problem arises when he gets hurt, or needs to be spelled. There is a SIGNIFICANT dropoff between him and his backup. You have no depth at that position, and the opposition takes great advantage of that.   It's much easier to replace a NI OG with another in the hopper - the dropoff in talent is not nearly as bad.  

 

Ideally, we should be drafting Offensive linemen, receivers and special teams/safeties/DTs. With some luck you find a couple decent NI OT and start 4 NI on the Oline. Add 2 receivers and you have only one spot to fill. It's not 'old fashioned' it's smart.

[Mike]

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Henoc would be considered among the better NIs in the league and he's young and getting better.

He's one of our sure fire starters.

Can we easily dismiss him and say buh bye. I don't think so.

We have to fight to keep him.

Fight to keep him, yes. But again, if he doesn't want to be here well we need to move on. We have to focus on the future. Would I like him to be in our future, yes. If Muamba's agent holds the Bombers up for ranson or as leverage to get more money off another team then let him go. We can easily replace a Canadian MLB with an American without missing a beat. On the OL, losing a Canadian like Labatte hurts a lot more than if we lost Muamba as the OL is considered a Canadian position & MLB an American one. You build your Canadian talent from the OL out...

 

 

See, this is a theory that will soon get debunked.  There is some great Canadian talent out there in every position.  It doesn't matter if it's o-line, receiver, linebacker.  You build your Canadian talent by finding quality Canadians at any position.  

 

Saying the MLB position is an American position is like saying the RB is an Amercian position. It's an old-fashioned way of thinking in my mind. 

 

Now If you had said the word "primarily" I could have accepted that. 

 

 

Well yes and no. It's great to have a young NI starter like Muamba at a position typically taken by an import. The problem arises when he gets hurt, or needs to be spelled. There is a SIGNIFICANT dropoff between him and his backup. You have no depth at that position, and the opposition takes great advantage of that.   It's much easier to replace a NI OG with another in the hopper - the dropoff in talent is not nearly as bad.  

 

Ideally, we should be drafting Offensive linemen, receivers and special teams/safeties/DTs. With some luck you find a couple decent NI OT and start 4 NI on the Oline. Add 2 receivers and you have only one spot to fill. It's not 'old fashioned' it's smart.

 

 

Except when you do it properly, what you have is flexibility in your ratio so if Henoc gets hurt, you don't necessarily need a backup NI MLB, you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB.

 

For example, if Andrew Harris gets hurt in BC, they don't replace him with a NI RB, they simply adjust their ratio and dress another NI somewhere else. Same with Cornish in Calgary, Matt Walter is the game day backup but I doubt he'd be the weekly starter if Cornish got hurt. Same thing applies with Ted Laurent in Edmonton. Andre Durie in Toronto. etc etc

[OldSchoolBlue]

Except when you do it properly, what you have is flexibility in your ratio so if Henoc gets hurt, you don't necessarily need a backup NI MLB, you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB.

 

For example, if Andrew Harris gets hurt in BC, they don't replace him with a NI RB, they simply adjust their ratio and dress another NI somewhere else. Same with Cornish in Calgary, Matt Walter is the game day backup but I doubt he'd be the weekly starter if Cornish got hurt. Same thing applies with Ted Laurent in Edmonton. Andre Durie in Toronto. etc etc

 

Agreed, except that the drop off in talent when 'you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB' can pretty steep. Not so much when you go from NI OG to NI OG, if you've been drafting and developing NI OGs.   

[Mike]

 

Except when you do it properly, what you have is flexibility in your ratio so if Henoc gets hurt, you don't necessarily need a backup NI MLB, you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB.

 

For example, if Andrew Harris gets hurt in BC, they don't replace him with a NI RB, they simply adjust their ratio and dress another NI somewhere else. Same with Cornish in Calgary, Matt Walter is the game day backup but I doubt he'd be the weekly starter if Cornish got hurt. Same thing applies with Ted Laurent in Edmonton. Andre Durie in Toronto. etc etc

 

Agreed, except that the drop off in talent when 'you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB' can pretty steep. Not so much when you go from NI OG to NI OG, if you've been drafting and developing NI OGs.   

 

 

I don't necessarily agree.

 

The drop off is usually going to be steep in any situation. If you're capable enough to start as a Canadian in this league, you rarely sit on the bench.

[17to85]

You will always have a drop off when you go from top NIs to backup NIs no matter where they play. Labbe is as good a backup to Muamba as you'll find out there (Stephan if he's not hurt seems decent enough too) The problem here is that outside of Muamba none of the NIs have stepped up to that top teir level. Watson has but he likes to get hurt a ton. 

[iso_55]

One other issue teams deal with in terms of their starting NIMPS is having a viable backup at the starters spot. If Muamba goes down the next guy in at that spot is Labbe. We all know the sentiment of him as a starting MAC. That has to be part of any plan when placing your starting NIPs. Do you have ta major fall off when you have to sub for him? Hence the challenge at DL, MAC, corner.

Very true. That is a big problem when a Canadian plays in a position that is usually American. Calgary is a good example. With Jon Cornish their starting tailback they have a backup Canadian tailback in Matt Walter who is able to step in & play as his backup. If Cornish went down & they didn't have Matt, an American would go in Cornish's place & another American would have to come out somewhere else. If Walter wasn't around, the Stamps would have a problem. In Winnipeg, with Muamba starting at MLB, Labbe is the backup. While the drop in play is significant, he is valuable as it means the ratio isn't messed with if Muamba goes down.

[Floyd]

Canadian positions are now 3-4 OL, 1-2 receivers, Safety and something else

 

Unless you have a real star at one of the alternate positions, you really should be focusing on 4 NI OL - we have had several chances to change our ratio and instead played sub-par Americans.

 

The only reason losing Muamba would not hurt as much is that this team needs a total rebuild anyway.

[HardCoreBlue]

 

 

 

 

Well as indicated by the Sun article today a number of players, as expected are not going to resign now and will test the market. This really comes as no surprise, and you can't really blame them given the chaotic atmosphere they have been subjected to.

Typical Sun headline...hardly an exodus!....not so sure it is about the chaotic atmosphere...more like MONEY!

 

 

The lack of winning and negative atmosphere plays as large a roll in attracting and retaining players as money does .. what incentive does a top tier free agent have to stay in (or come to) Winnipeg when there's little chance of making the playoffs (and making the extra coin associated with a post season birth)?  If two contracts are being considered, both offering similar money, what would entice someone to join an organization that's constantly under the microscope and in a state of continual change?

 

Loyalty, Commitment, We're in this together? Or is that a thing of the past.

 

It's certainly a nice sentiment, and how much an individual values such things will vary from player to player. One thing is for sure though: these guys aren't signing with any team out of the kindness of their hearts. They need to get paid, and making the playoffs is a big part of maximizing your earning potential. Fact is, as long as the Bombers are in a tailspin they'll have a harder time attracting (or retaining) quality players with options.

 

That has really nothing to do with Loyalty and Commitment. Because if it did what you're suggesting by making this statement (and even with your remark it varies) is that well-compensated professional athletes place loyalty and commitment very low on their priority list which is simply not true. Some, and I repeat some professional athletes and the organizations they represent achieve the best of both worlds (compensation and loyalty/commitment). With the Bombers, hard to say how it's going with this. I try to remain optimistic that we have the right people in places (or are looking for them) to build this type of culture.  

 

[HardCoreBlue]

 

 

 

 

 

Well as indicated by the Sun article today a number of players, as expected are not going to resign now and will test the market. This really comes as no surprise, and you can't really blame them given the chaotic atmosphere they have been subjected to.

Typical Sun headline...hardly an exodus!....not so sure it is about the chaotic atmosphere...more like MONEY!

 

 

The lack of winning and negative atmosphere plays as large a roll in attracting and retaining players as money does .. what incentive does a top tier free agent have to stay in (or come to) Winnipeg when there's little chance of making the playoffs (and making the extra coin associated with a post season birth)?  If two contracts are being considered, both offering similar money, what would entice someone to join an organization that's constantly under the microscope and in a state of continual change?

 

Loyalty, Commitment, We're in this together? Or is that a thing of the past.

 

It's certainly a nice sentiment, and how much an individual values such things will vary from player to player. One thing is for sure though: these guys aren't signing with any team out of the kindness of their hearts. They need to get paid, and making the playoffs is a big part of maximizing your earning potential. Fact is, as long as the Bombers are in a tailspin they'll have a harder time attracting (or retaining) quality players with options.

 

That has really nothing to do with Loyalty and Commitment. Because if it did what you're suggesting by making this statement (and even with your remark it varies) is that well-compensated professional athletes place loyalty and commitment very low on their priority list which is simply not true. Some, and I repeat some professional athletes and the organizations they represent achieve the best of both worlds (compensation and loyalty/commitment). With the Bombers, hard to say how it's going with this. I try to remain optimistic that we have the right people in places (or are looking for them) to build this type of culture.  

 

And to add one more thing, for the people who think winning solves all of this are dead wrong. Because losing also shows a lot about a person's character and if their first reaction is to jump ship then I say need a boost . . .

 

 

[MOBomberFan]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as indicated by the Sun article today a number of players, as expected are not going to resign now and will test the market. This really comes as no surprise, and you can't really blame them given the chaotic atmosphere they have been subjected to.

Typical Sun headline...hardly an exodus!....not so sure it is about the chaotic atmosphere...more like MONEY!

 

 

The lack of winning and negative atmosphere plays as large a roll in attracting and retaining players as money does .. what incentive does a top tier free agent have to stay in (or come to) Winnipeg when there's little chance of making the playoffs (and making the extra coin associated with a post season birth)?  If two contracts are being considered, both offering similar money, what would entice someone to join an organization that's constantly under the microscope and in a state of continual change?

 

Loyalty, Commitment, We're in this together? Or is that a thing of the past.

 

It's certainly a nice sentiment, and how much an individual values such things will vary from player to player. One thing is for sure though: these guys aren't signing with any team out of the kindness of their hearts. They need to get paid, and making the playoffs is a big part of maximizing your earning potential. Fact is, as long as the Bombers are in a tailspin they'll have a harder time attracting (or retaining) quality players with options.

 

That has really nothing to do with Loyalty and Commitment. Because if it did what you're suggesting by making this statement (and even with your remark it varies) is that well-compensated professional athletes place loyalty and commitment very low on their priority list which is simply not true. Some, and I repeat some professional athletes and the organizations they represent achieve the best of both worlds (compensation and loyalty/commitment). With the Bombers, hard to say how it's going with this. I try to remain optimistic that we have the right people in places (or are looking for them) to build this type of culture.  

 

And to add one more thing, for the people who think winning solves all of this are dead wrong. Because losing also shows a lot about a person's character and if their first reaction is to jump ship then I say need a boost . . .

 

 

Certainly loyalty and commitment and so on factor in to every players decision to choose where to play. So do other things such as 'can I realistically be a starter?', or 'does this team have a terrible coaching staff?' or  'does this team have a hope in hell of making the playoffs?'.

 

We agree that those factors play a role, we disagree on how important they are to the vast majority of players, American or otherise. Money talks, and there is a direct corrolation between a teams success on the field and an individual players earning potential. Did Philip Hunt display a lack of loyalty to the Bombers by signing in the NFL for more money? Would Akeem Foster have chosen to come to Winnipeg if he wasn't traded here first? I bet he's choked up that he's all but lost a playoff pay cheque, and all the positive thinking in the world won't replace those dollar bills.

[TrueBlue]

 

Except when you do it properly, what you have is flexibility in your ratio so if Henoc gets hurt, you don't necessarily need a backup NI MLB, you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB.

 

For example, if Andrew Harris gets hurt in BC, they don't replace him with a NI RB, they simply adjust their ratio and dress another NI somewhere else. Same with Cornish in Calgary, Matt Walter is the game day backup but I doubt he'd be the weekly starter if Cornish got hurt. Same thing applies with Ted Laurent in Edmonton. Andre Durie in Toronto. etc etc

 

Agreed, except that the drop off in talent when 'you just slot another NI in somewhere else and play an American at MLB' can pretty steep. Not so much when you go from NI OG to NI OG, if you've been drafting and developing NI OGs.   

 

 

This stems from the argument about whether or not when you draft, you draft based on need, or based on the best player available, which I won't get into. 

 

I am just saying that on 42 man roster, you have 3 QBs, and 19 imports, leaving 20 non-imports.  What position those 20 non-imports play, I could really care less about, as long as it fields you the best possible team.  And as Mike concluded, if your roster management is good, if a non-import comes out, you have go the flexibility to move another non-import into another position. 

[Mike]

 

One other issue teams deal with in terms of their starting NIMPS is having a viable backup at the starters spot. If Muamba goes down the next guy in at that spot is Labbe. We all know the sentiment of him as a starting MAC. That has to be part of any plan when placing your starting NIPs. Do you have ta major fall off when you have to sub for him? Hence the challenge at DL, MAC, corner.

Very true. That is a big problem when a Canadian plays in a position that is usually American. Calgary is a good example. With Jon Cornish their starting tailback they have a backup Canadian tailback in Matt Walter who is able to step in & play as his backup. If Cornish went down & they didn't have Matt, an American would go in Cornish's place & another American would have to come out somewhere else. If Walter wasn't around, the Stamps would have a problem. In Winnipeg, with Muamba starting at MLB, Labbe is the backup. While the drop in play is significant, he is valuable as it means the ratio isn't messed with if Muamba goes down.

 

 

Calgary is not a good example at all because it proves the point I made, not the one you're trying to make. When Cornish missed a game with a thigh injury, it wasn't Walter that started for him. It was Jonathan Williams and they shuffled the rest of their lineup to accommodate it.

[HardCoreBlue]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as indicated by the Sun article today a number of players, as expected are not going to resign now and will test the market. This really comes as no surprise, and you can't really blame them given the chaotic atmosphere they have been subjected to.

Typical Sun headline...hardly an exodus!....not so sure it is about the chaotic atmosphere...more like MONEY!

 

 

The lack of winning and negative atmosphere plays as large a roll in attracting and retaining players as money does .. what incentive does a top tier free agent have to stay in (or come to) Winnipeg when there's little chance of making the playoffs (and making the extra coin associated with a post season birth)?  If two contracts are being considered, both offering similar money, what would entice someone to join an organization that's constantly under the microscope and in a state of continual change?

 

Loyalty, Commitment, We're in this together? Or is that a thing of the past.

 

It's certainly a nice sentiment, and how much an individual values such things will vary from player to player. One thing is for sure though: these guys aren't signing with any team out of the kindness of their hearts. They need to get paid, and making the playoffs is a big part of maximizing your earning potential. Fact is, as long as the Bombers are in a tailspin they'll have a harder time attracting (or retaining) quality players with options.

 

That has really nothing to do with Loyalty and Commitment. Because if it did what you're suggesting by making this statement (and even with your remark it varies) is that well-compensated professional athletes place loyalty and commitment very low on their priority list which is simply not true. Some, and I repeat some professional athletes and the organizations they represent achieve the best of both worlds (compensation and loyalty/commitment). With the Bombers, hard to say how it's going with this. I try to remain optimistic that we have the right people in places (or are looking for them) to build this type of culture.  

 

And to add one more thing, for the people who think winning solves all of this are dead wrong. Because losing also shows a lot about a person's character and if their first reaction is to jump ship then I say need a boost . . .

 

 

Certainly loyalty and commitment and so on factor in to every players decision to choose where to play. So do other things such as 'can I realistically be a starter?', or 'does this team have a terrible coaching staff?' or  'does this team have a hope in hell of making the playoffs?'.

 

We agree that those factors play a role, we disagree on how important they are to the vast majority of players, American or otherise. Money talks, and there is a direct corrolation between a teams success on the field and an individual players earning potential. Did Philip Hunt display a lack of loyalty to the Bombers by signing in the NFL for more money? Would Akeem Foster have chosen to come to Winnipeg if he wasn't traded here first? I bet he's choked up that he's all but lost a playoff pay cheque, and all the positive thinking in the world won't replace those dollar bills.

 

Fair enough, we don't see it the same way. I appreciate your point about money, I'm not that niave nor pollyana, it talks in any profession not just sport. However, it's not as simple as you put it with your correlation. There are players who have actually taken pay cuts and/or have made compromises (which include a variety of things sometimes centred around their families) to stick with their teams so I don't know if using the word VAST is the most appropriate word to use. Let's say Money usually wins at the end of the day. To your point about Akeem, don't know because I'm not in his head but first impressions tell me he's glad he's getting a chance to play that MAY overide him 'choking up' about losing a playoff cheque. Short term pain for long term gain maybe in his circumstance.  

[iso_55]

 

 

One other issue teams deal with in terms of their starting NIMPS is having a viable backup at the starters spot. If Muamba goes down the next guy in at that spot is Labbe. We all know the sentiment of him as a starting MAC. That has to be part of any plan when placing your starting NIPs. Do you have ta major fall off when you have to sub for him? Hence the challenge at DL, MAC, corner.

Very true. That is a big problem when a Canadian plays in a position that is usually American. Calgary is a good example. With Jon Cornish their starting tailback they have a backup Canadian tailback in Matt Walter who is able to step in & play as his backup. If Cornish went down & they didn't have Matt, an American would go in Cornish's place & another American would have to come out somewhere else. If Walter wasn't around, the Stamps would have a problem. In Winnipeg, with Muamba starting at MLB, Labbe is the backup. While the drop in play is significant, he is valuable as it means the ratio isn't messed with if Muamba goes down.

 

 

Calgary is not a good example at all because it proves the point I made, not the one you're trying to make. When Cornish missed a game with a thigh injury, it wasn't Walter that started for him. It was Jonathan Williams and they shuffled the rest of their lineup to accommodate it.

 

Yeah true but i guess it does prove what I said. They had to take out an American to play Williams even though he & Walter split the playing time. Damn, I forgot about Williams.

[17to85]

It all comes down to taking guys who can play regardless of what position they play. You identify your 7 best NIs each week and they start, if someone is hurt then your next best NI goes in for him and you balance the ratio however it needs to be done. 

[Mark H.]

Canadian positions are now 3-4 OL, 1-2 receivers, Safety and something else

 

Unless you have a real star at one of the alternate positions, you really should be focusing on 4 NI OL - we have had several chances to change our ratio and instead played sub-par Americans.

 

The only reason losing Muamba would not hurt as much is that this team needs a total rebuild anyway.

 

That's not necessarily a reason to change the ratio...it could also be a reason to scout for better Americans.