Bye Week Thread: Complacency, Budget & Leadership,

[wbbfan]

3 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

RAPTORS, BLUEJAYS, LEAFS

argos

The thing about that is each really has its own niche with in Toronto. Especially the raptors and jays. Leafs are what they are. But the demographic at a raptors game is very very different. Even the jays to an extent. 
 The Argos lost their niche. But the lions also lost theirs and have done a great job of getting it back with out going to a grey cup. Problem is mlse is a deadbeat owner. They’ve had the Argos for 5 years and things have only gotten much worse. 

[pw13]

44 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Problem is mlse is a deadbeat owner. They’ve had the Argos for 5 years and things have only gotten much worse. 

I disagree. The decline of the Argos goes back 40 years and has had many factors, including (for much of it) neglectful or in some cases abusive ownership. MLSE is far from perfect, and there's still a gigantic hill to climb. But IMO the Argos are in better shape market-wise than they were five years ago. Attendance is trending up and merch sales appear to be way up. (Plus there is a much bigger and better assortment of merch, for what that's worth.) MLSE has put a good mgmt group in place on the football side and appears to be serious about building the team into a perennial contender.

 

[17to85]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

The thing about that is each really has its own niche with in Toronto. Especially the raptors and jays. Leafs are what they are. But the demographic at a raptors game is very very different. Even the jays to an extent. 
 The Argos lost their niche. But the lions also lost theirs and have done a great job of getting it back with out going to a grey cup. Problem is mlse is a deadbeat owner. They’ve had the Argos for 5 years and things have only gotten much worse. 

They've tried nothing and they're all out of ideas.

19 minutes ago, pw13 said:

Attendance is trending up

One of the fans got a girlfriend he's taking to games now?

[SpeedFlex27]

If MLSE wanted to promote the Argos they could but don't want to. They own the Leafs, Raptors, Bluejays & Toronto FC. They could cross promote. They could do a lot of things but don't. Except ***** that the Argos doesn't grow in value. Or that they want to join the XFL. I like how BC owner Doman told Tannenbaum to suck it up & quit complaining. 

[GCJenks]

Best way to support the team on a bye week…

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160730161700491&set=a.77696030490&type=3

[wbbfan]

48 minutes ago, pw13 said:

I disagree. The decline of the Argos goes back 40 years and has had many factors, including (for much of it) neglectful or in some cases abusive ownership. MLSE is far from perfect, and there's still a gigantic hill to climb. But IMO the Argos are in better shape market-wise than they were five years ago. Attendance is trending up and merch sales appear to be way up. (Plus there is a much bigger and better assortment of merch, for what that's worth.) MLSE has put a good mgmt group in place on the football side and appears to be serious about building the team into a perennial contender.

 

That’s factually inaccurate. The Argos had more good years than bad attendance wise in the 90s with a lul post flutie and a 2000s bounce back. The 93-95 argos especially struggled to compete with the jays post back to back ships. The late 90s post flutie era did the same when the raptors came to town. 

the only thing that’s gotten better in the to market in 5 years is how good the Argos are at lying about attendance. 
 

mlse didn’t do any thing management wise. Pinball was running it and changed positions as he had in the past depending on his ability to devote time to the team. He put dinwiddie in place and they built this team. That’s got nothing to do with mlse. 
 Mlse came into a team that was consistently hosting a home play off game every other year and they won 4 games in back to back years. 
 They have a team that should be a contender now. Last year was a surprise win and this is the first year of them being a serious contender. 

[pw13]

15 hours ago, wbbfan said:

That’s factually inaccurate. The Argos had more good years than bad attendance wise in the 90s with a lul post flutie and a 2000s bounce back. The 93-95 argos especially struggled to compete with the jays post back to back ships. The late 90s post flutie era did the same when the raptors came to town. 

the only thing that’s gotten better in the to market in 5 years is how good the Argos are at lying about attendance. 
 

mlse didn’t do any thing management wise. Pinball was running it and changed positions as he had in the past depending on his ability to devote time to the team. He put dinwiddie in place and they built this team. That’s got nothing to do with mlse. 
 Mlse came into a team that was consistently hosting a home play off game every other year and they won 4 games in back to back years. 
 They have a team that should be a contender now. Last year was a surprise win and this is the first year of them being a serious contender. 

That's a pretty inaccurate accusation of factual inaccuracy. Here are the actual facts:

Argos' announced attendance began declining in 1977, blipped up in 1982, began dropping again in 1983, blipped up in 1989-90 (when SkyDome was new, and those numbers were viewed very suspiciously by media covering the team during Harry Ornest's two years as owner). Up (for real) in 1991, then began declining again. Up slightly in Flutie's two seasons (to crowds not much bigger than today's). Big increase in 2004-5-6-7, but the widespread belief was that Cynamon and Sokolowski papered the house. Downward trend ever since, but now tracking upwards for three consecutive years.

You can accuse MLSE of "lying" about attendance, but -- presumably unlike you -- I go to every Argo home game and I can tell you the crowds have been much bigger this year than last year.  

Maybe you'd like further evidence: Toronto Argonauts All-Time Attendance on CFLdb Statistics

As for the second part of your rant, again "factually inaccurate." Pinball was not "running it"; he was completely uninvolved before Bill Manning (MLSE appointee) convinced him to return to the team as GM. Yes, Pinball hired Dinwiddie, but to suggest MLSE had "nothing to do with" any of this is utterly ridiculous. 

If you'd like to educate yourself better about the modern history of the Argos, I suggest you read these books:

Bouncing Back: From National Joke to Grey Cup Champs (lulu.com)

Year of the Rocket – Sutherland House Publishing (sutherlandhousebooks.com)

          

[Booch]

1 hour ago, pw13 said:

That's a pretty inaccurate accusation of factual inaccuracy. Here are the actual facts:

Argos' announced attendance began declining in 1977, blipped up in 1982, began dropping again in 1983, blipped up in 1989-90 (when SkyDome was new, and those numbers were viewed very suspiciously by media covering the team during Harry Ornest's two years as owner). Up (for real) in 1991, then began declining again. Up slightly in Flutie's two seasons (to crowds not much bigger than today's). Big increase in 2004-5-6-7, but the widespread belief was that Cynamon and Sokolowski papered the house. Downward trend ever since, but now tracking upwards for three consecutive years.

You can accuse MLSE of "lying" about attendance, but -- presumably unlike you -- I go to every Argo home game and I can tell you the crowds have been much bigger this year than last year.  

Maybe you'd like further evidence: Toronto Argonauts All-Time Attendance on CFLdb Statistics

As for the second part of your rant, again "factually inaccurate." Pinball was not "running it"; he was completely uninvolved before Bill Manning (MLSE appointee) convinced him to return to the team as GM. Yes, Pinball hired Dinwiddie, but to suggest MLSE had "nothing to do with" any of this is utterly ridiculous. 

If you'd like to educate yourself better about the modern history of the Argos, I suggest you read these books:

Bouncing Back: From National Joke to Grey Cup Champs (lulu.com)

Year of the Rocket – Sutherland House Publishing (sutherlandhousebooks.com)

          

pretty sure nobody here cares about the Argo modern history....they are a sad sack city in support of the team....pretty much facts...with a population of that size in the greater area they should be packing that lil stadium

[HardCoreBlue]

2 hours ago, pw13 said:

That's a pretty inaccurate accusation of factual inaccuracy. Here are the actual facts:

Argos' announced attendance began declining in 1977, blipped up in 1982, began dropping again in 1983, blipped up in 1989-90 (when SkyDome was new, and those numbers were viewed very suspiciously by media covering the team during Harry Ornest's two years as owner). Up (for real) in 1991, then began declining again. Up slightly in Flutie's two seasons (to crowds not much bigger than today's). Big increase in 2004-5-6-7, but the widespread belief was that Cynamon and Sokolowski papered the house. Downward trend ever since, but now tracking upwards for three consecutive years.

You can accuse MLSE of "lying" about attendance, but -- presumably unlike you -- I go to every Argo home game and I can tell you the crowds have been much bigger this year than last year.  

Maybe you'd like further evidence: Toronto Argonauts All-Time Attendance on CFLdb Statistics

As for the second part of your rant, again "factually inaccurate." Pinball was not "running it"; he was completely uninvolved before Bill Manning (MLSE appointee) convinced him to return to the team as GM. Yes, Pinball hired Dinwiddie, but to suggest MLSE had "nothing to do with" any of this is utterly ridiculous. 

If you'd like to educate yourself better about the modern history of the Argos, I suggest you read these books:

Bouncing Back: From National Joke to Grey Cup Champs (lulu.com)

Year of the Rocket – Sutherland House Publishing (sutherlandhousebooks.com)

          

Blah Blah Blah argos suck Blah Blah Blah Hope they thrive for the health of the league Blah Blah Blah

That's what I read.

 

[pw13]

Nice to see such a high level of discussion here.

[bluto]

45 minutes ago, pw13 said:

Nice to see such a high level of discussion here.

FWIW, I have both of Paul's books in the provided links. They each tell a fascinating story about a bizarre time and place in the lore of a storied team.

I don't know if any MBB posters will part with their hard-earned to get them, but they're a great read for any CFL fan.

[17to85]

2 hours ago, pw13 said:

Nice to see such a high level of discussion here.

**** the argos and their fan

[HardCoreBlue]

2 hours ago, pw13 said:

Nice to see such a high level of discussion here.

Don't be so serious, it's all in good fun.

High level discussions do happen here now and then.

For example we've been tossing around how much do the argos and their fan suck?

I make the case they royally suck no matter what but others here suggest their GC win last year, the increase in their attendance and their 12-1 record might not fully support my claim.

I think we're both right.

 

 

 

[wbbfan]

5 hours ago, pw13 said:

That's a pretty inaccurate accusation of factual inaccuracy. Here are the actual facts:

Argos' announced attendance began declining in 1977, blipped up in 1982, began dropping again in 1983, blipped up in 1989-90 (when SkyDome was new, and those numbers were viewed very suspiciously by media covering the team during Harry Ornest's two years as owner). Up (for real) in 1991, then began declining again. Up slightly in Flutie's two seasons (to crowds not much bigger than today's). Big increase in 2004-5-6-7, but the widespread belief was that Cynamon and Sokolowski papered the house. Downward trend ever since, but now tracking upwards for three consecutive years.

You can accuse MLSE of "lying" about attendance, but -- presumably unlike you -- I go to every Argo home game and I can tell you the crowds have been much bigger this year than last year.  

Maybe you'd like further evidence: Toronto Argonauts All-Time Attendance on CFLdb Statistics

As for the second part of your rant, again "factually inaccurate." Pinball was not "running it"; he was completely uninvolved before Bill Manning (MLSE appointee) convinced him to return to the team as GM. Yes, Pinball hired Dinwiddie, but to suggest MLSE had "nothing to do with" any of this is utterly ridiculous. 

If you'd like to educate yourself better about the modern history of the Argos, I suggest you read these books:

Bouncing Back: From National Joke to Grey Cup Champs (lulu.com)

Year of the Rocket – Sutherland House Publishing (sutherlandhousebooks.com)

          

It illustrates what I said about the 90s and early 2ks lol. 
The Argos attendance of 2-3k last year couldn't go significantly down.

Again, you’re wrong. (Is that better?) pinball hasn’t been un involved with the Argos at any point since he retired. Holding what must be the longest continual employement in the cfl today being an Argo in one form or another since 1989. 
he coached sporadically between 2000 and 2007 while also serving on and off as club president gm and ceo at different times while just being ceo and gm in 2008. 09-2019 he was the vice chairman of the board. 19 forward he was the gm again. 
Maybe check his write up on the Argos site or wiki or the cfl lol. Instead of lulu.com and a book about rocket Ishmail. 
 

No, it isn’t. Pinball is entirely responsible for Dinwiddie. 
 

 

[pw13]

2 hours ago, wbbfan said:

It illustrates what I said about the 90s and early 2ks lol. 
The Argos attendance of 2-3k last year couldn't go significantly down.

Again, you’re wrong. (Is that better?) pinball hasn’t been un involved with the Argos at any point since he retired. Holding what must be the longest continual employement in the cfl today being an Argo in one form or another since 1989. 
he coached sporadically between 2000 and 2007 while also serving on and off as club president gm and ceo at different times while just being ceo and gm in 2008. 09-2019 he was the vice chairman of the board. 19 forward he was the gm again. 
Maybe check his write up on the Argos site or wiki or the cfl lol. Instead of lulu.com and a book about rocket Ishmail. 
 

No, it isn’t. Pinball is entirely responsible for Dinwiddie. 
 

 

I'm humbled to be so informed -- I trust you've been at BMO Field to scope out the crowds of 2-3k last year. I bow to your superior knowledge about all things Argo. Since you know so much, perhaps you could tell us what exactly the vice-chair of the Argos does? Also, thanks for the correction on spelling the Rocket's last name. Ashamed to say I got it wrong (Ismail, silly me) in the book. Also ashamed to say the book was about more than "Ishmail." Again, silly me.

 

       

3 hours ago, 17to85 said:

**** the argos and their fan

Wow, never heard that one before!  

[SpeedFlex27]

16 hours ago, Booch said:

pretty sure nobody here cares about the Argo modern history....they are a sad sack city in support of the team....pretty much facts...with a population of that size in the greater area they should be packing that lil stadium

We don't need a history lesson to see how bad Argo attendance is. We see it on TV at every one of their home games. And attendance up significantly? From 12,000 to 14,000. Yep, impressive. And, they sure do that "lack of attendance thing" right. By completely closing the upper deck on the side of the field opposite the cameras. Bravo, MLSE. Well done. Clap. Clap. Clap. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by SpeedFlex27

[GCn20]

The Argos biggest problem is that they are in Toronto. Just a wannabe NFL town.

[Booch]

15 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The Argos biggest problem is that they are in Toronto. Just a wannabe NFL town.

wannabe and never will be all wrapped into one nice lil package

 

[SpeedFlex27]

Two to 4 billion dollars for an expansion team as we know the NFL will never transfer an existing team to Toronto. Buffalo will never give up it's terrirorial rights to Southern Ontario. They love the Canadians putting their hard earned money down on Bills tickets too much to give that up. Another 2-3 billion (or more as it is built in Canada) for a state of the art 70,000 seat stadium. So, 5-7 billion for an NFL team. Get real. Even MLSE with the Canadian dollar so low doesn't have that kind of cash. 

[JCon]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Two to 4 billion dollars for an expansion team as we know the NFL will never transfer an existing team to Toronto. Buffalo will never give up it's terrirorial rights to Southern Ontario. They love the Canadians putting their hard earned money down on Bills tickets too much to give that up. Another 2-3 billion (or more as it is built in Canada) for a state of the art 70,000 seat stadium. So, 5-7 billion for an NFL team. Get real. Even MLSE with the Canadian dollar so low doesn't have that kind of cash. 

NFL does not allow corporate ownership. It would have to be an individual with that kind of coin. 

[JohnnyAbonny]

I for one appreciate @pw13’s perspective. 
In agreement of details or not, I’m a sucker for CFL history. 
I was going to say, I remember them getting decent crowds in 06-07, when we had a decent little rivalry going. Don’t remember hearing anything about C&S papering. 

[pw13]

5 hours ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

I for one appreciate @pw13’s perspective. 
In agreement of details or not, I’m a sucker for CFL history. 
I was going to say, I remember them getting decent crowds in 06-07, when we had a decent little rivalry going. Don’t remember hearing anything about C&S papering. 

Thanks for the kind words. As for C&S, it has never been confirmed, but I think it's almost certain they were papering the house. The crowds got way bigger all of a sudden when they took over, with no obvious reason.

  

[SpeedFlex27]

11 hours ago, JCon said:

NFL does not allow corporate ownership. It would have to be an individual with that kind of coin. 

Good luck with that.