Friday Night Football - Bombers at Leos: GDT

[Doublezero]

1 minute ago, TBURGESS said:

The ball placement is where the ball is when the foot goes out, not where the foot is when the foot goes out. Example: TD's. Lots of time the knee is down in the field of play, while the ball is over the goal line. That's a TD every time. 

You can't see the right foot on the TV feed. Does the all 24 have an angle that shows both the foot and ball? 

When the foot goes out the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is at that point. Can you show me where it says in the CFL rule book that placement is based on where the ball goes out and not the foot? I understand that this would apply to a goal-line play. In that instance it is only when the ball that crosses the plane of the goal that a score is recorded - that's whey you get players diving and extending the ball for the corner marker - like Sheed did so amazingly last year. But I'm not sure that applies anywhere else on the field. As I said, on the sideline for example, at the instant a player steps out of bounds the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is because the play is dead. In this case, VA had already stepped out of bounds. The ball was still moving in the air during his stretch but that's irrelevant.

[Booch]

8 minutes ago, Doublezero said:

When the foot goes out the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is at that point. Can you show me where it says in the CFL rule book that placement is based on where the ball goes out and not the foot? I understand that this would apply to a goal-line play. In that instance it is only when the ball that crosses the plane of the goal that a score is recorded - that's whey you get players diving and extending the ball for the corner marker - like Sheed did so amazingly last year. But I'm not sure that applies anywhere else on the field. As I said, on the sideline for example, at the instant a player steps out of bounds the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is because the play is dead. In this case, VA had already stepped out of bounds. The ball was still moving in the air during his stretch but that's irrelevant.

correct....if u step out first...then extend ball out it is where foot goes out.....but if you extend ball over the plane of the sideline before u step out ...behind the ball...placement was where ball went out....not foot....in the BC game you can clearly see he stepped out prior to extending his arm out to the marker....hence why it was placed where foot touched out of bounds

[TBURGESS]

31 minutes ago, Doublezero said:

When the foot goes out the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is at that point. Can you show me where it says in the CFL rule book that placement is based on where the ball goes out and not the foot? I understand that this would apply to a goal-line play. In that instance it is only when the ball that crosses the plane of the goal that a score is recorded - that's whey you get players diving and extending the ball for the corner marker - like Sheed did so amazingly last year. But I'm not sure that applies anywhere else on the field. As I said, on the sideline for example, at the instant a player steps out of bounds the play is dead. Doesn't matter where the ball is because the play is dead. In this case, VA had already stepped out of bounds. The ball was still moving in the air during his stretch but that's irrelevant.

When the foot goes out, the play is dead, but it's not marked where the foot went out. It's marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. 

Extend the ball before the foot goes out, it's where the extension of the ball is. Extend the ball after the foot goes out, you don't get the extension, it's still where the ball was when the foot touches the out of bounds. 

I took a quick look at the rule book and I didn't find anything definitive regarding marking the ball at the foot when going out of bounds or where the ball is when the foot goes out of bounds.  

Think of TD's on the sidelines. Player dives while his foot is in the field of play. Ball goes over the line = TD. Player dives, when his foot has touched the sideline = no TD. Neither case needs the players foot to go over the goal line. In both cases, the ball is marked where the ball is when the player touches the sidelines, not where the foot touches. 

Lets say the VAJ dove instead of pushed the ball forward. If he stepped on the out of bounds line before he dove, he wouldn't get the field advantage of the dive. If he started the dive before he touched the boundary, then he gets where he lands, assuming a head first dive. 

[SpeedFlex27]

On 2023-10-09 at 5:34 PM, JohnnyAbonny said:

For fun, what’s everyone’s knowledge level of involvement playing or being around the football? 
For myself I’m basically just a fan. I never had the frame to play the game past minor bantam (15). 
Dad played/coached HS and Junior ball.
I’ve been going to Bomber games him since I was 3, taught me a lot from a very young age about how to watch football, especially the defensive backfield. 
My expert area would be more so when it comes to the history of the game. I’m a massive history nerd on all levels, and I’d put my memory vault up against anyone in the world (besides maybe Stats Junkie) 

And your family taught me as well. Was my neighbour your Grandfather? 

Edited October 13, 2023 by SpeedFlex27

[Doublezero]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

When the foot goes out, the play is dead, but it's not marked where the foot went out. It's marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. 

Extend the ball before the foot goes out, it's where the extension of the ball is. Extend the ball after the foot goes out, you don't get the extension, it's still where the ball was when the foot touches the out of bounds. 

I took a quick look at the rule book and I didn't find anything definitive regarding marking the ball at the foot when going out of bounds or where the ball is when the foot goes out of bounds.  

Think of TD's on the sidelines. Player dives while his foot is in the field of play. Ball goes over the line = TD. Player dives, when his foot has touched the sideline = no TD. Neither case needs the players foot to go over the goal line. In both cases, the ball is marked where the ball is when the player touches the sidelines, not where the foot touches. 

Lets say the VAJ dove instead of pushed the ball forward. If he stepped on the out of bounds line before he dove, he wouldn't get the field advantage of the dive. If he started the dive before he touched the boundary, then he gets where he lands, assuming a head first dive. 

Let's keep it simple. The play is over when either 1) the player, or 2) the ball, goes out of bounds. So in this case, placement depends whether 1) the foot, or 2) the ball goes out of bounds first. If a player steps out of bounds first the spot is where he stepped out. If the ball goes out of bounds first (while the player remains in-bounds) then the spot is where the ball went out of bounds. In this case VA stepped out of bounds before the ball went out of bounds. Therefore the spot is where his foot was, since the play is dead at that point. There can never be a case where the placement of the spot is where the ball went out if the player previously stepped out.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Doublezero

[JohnnyAbonny]

11 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

And your family taught me as well. Was my neighbour your Grandfather? 

My grandfather’s brother, Doug. 
Granddad was a huge fan too. 
They both moved here from Virden after the war and started going to games at Osborne Stadium. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by JohnnyAbonny

[TBURGESS]

14 hours ago, Doublezero said:

Let's keep it simple. The play is over when either 1) the player, or 2) the ball, goes out of bounds. So in this case, placement depends whether 1) the foot, or 2) the ball goes out of bounds first. If a player steps out of bounds first the spot is where he stepped out. If the ball goes out of bounds first (while the player remains in-bounds) then the spot is where the ball went out of bounds. In this case VA stepped out of bounds before the ball went out of bounds. Therefore the spot is where his foot was, since the play is dead at that point. There can never be a case where the placement of the spot is where the ball went out if the player previously stepped out.

It's simple, but you've got it wrong. The placement is always where the ball is, not where the foot is when the player is down, or out, or in the endzone.

You can't advance the ball after you or the ball are down or out. 

If the ball goes out first, it's where the ball is. If the foot goes out first, it's still where the ball is. 

[Booch]

15 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It's simple, but you've got it wrong. The placement is always where the ball is, not where the foot is when the player is down, or out, or in the endzone.

You can't advance the ball after you or the ball are down or out. 

If the ball goes out first, it's where the ball is. If the foot goes out first, it's still where the ball is. 

not if foot is out before ball crosses plane of the sideline....as the the ball carrier is determined out of bounds already...thats the key part of the "stretch" tactic...player needs to still be in field of play

Edited October 13, 2023 by Booch

[Dodge and Burn]

16 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

When the foot goes out, the play is dead, but it's not marked where the foot went out. It's marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. 

Extend the ball before the foot goes out, it's where the extension of the ball is. Extend the ball after the foot goes out, you don't get the extension, it's still where the ball was when the foot touches the out of bounds. 

I took a quick look at the rule book and I didn't find anything definitive regarding marking the ball at the foot when going out of bounds or where the ball is when the foot goes out of bounds.  

Think of TD's on the sidelines. Player dives while his foot is in the field of play. Ball goes over the line = TD. Player dives, when his foot has touched the sideline = no TD. Neither case needs the players foot to go over the goal line. In both cases, the ball is marked where the ball is when the player touches the sidelines, not where the foot touches. 

Lets say the VAJ dove instead of pushed the ball forward. If he stepped on the out of bounds line before he dove, he wouldn't get the field advantage of the dive. If he started the dive before he touched the boundary, then he gets where he lands, assuming a head first dive. 

I agree with you. Ugh. 😁

[TBURGESS]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

not if foot is out before ball crosses plane of the sideline....as the the ball carrier is determined out of bounds already...thats the key part of the "stretch" tactic...player needs to still be in field of play

A foot out = End of Play. Marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. Sideline's don't have any special marking rules, it's always marked where the ball is, never where the foot is

[Booch]

8 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

A foot out = End of Play. Marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. Sideline's don't have any special marking rules, it's always marked where the ball is, never where the foot is

if foot touched at 5 yard line...ball still in field of play....then crosses out at 6...spotted at 5.....no ambiguity there at all...I ref football....so kind of know a bit of how to spot a ball...well used to ref I should clarify

Edited October 13, 2023 by Booch

[JCon]

Just now, Booch said:

if fot touched at 5 yard line...ball still in field of play....then crosses out at 6...spotted at 5.....no ambiguity there at all...I ref football....so kind of know a bit of how to spot a ball

Yes, but he's a lawyer, rules expert, CBA expert, et al. So checkmate. 

[Booch]

Just now, JCon said:

Yes, but he's a lawyer, rules expert, CBA expert, et al. So checkmate. 

oh damn

 

[Stickem]

3 minutes ago, Booch said:

oh damn

 

I'm just glad he's not a ref.....everyone on the field would go dizzy waiting for ball placement

[Geebrr]

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

Yes, but he's a lawyer, rules expert, CBA expert, et al. So checkmate. 

He is right though. 
 

The ball is marked where it was when the player stepped out of bounds, not where the foot is.  It is why players extend for the pylon before going out of bounds/down. If it was where your foot was - why would you bother?  
 

Regardless - Adams was clearly OOB before he extended for extra yards. 

[Doublezero]

34 minutes ago, Geebrr said:

He is right though. 
 

The ball is marked where it was when the player stepped out of bounds, not where the foot is.  It is why players extend for the pylon before going out of bounds/down. If it was where your foot was - why would you bother?  
 

Regardless - Adams was clearly OOB before he extended for extra yards. 

But if your foot is out of bounds, as you say, the play is dead, regardless of where the ball is. And as you say Adams was OOB before the stretch, hence placement at the point where he stepped out and ended the play. You could have 10 foot long arms and extend all you like but the ball would not be placed 10 feet ahead of where you stepped out. And of course the endzone pylon is different than the sideline. The pylon is considered to be in bounds, since the goal line stretches to infinity. As long as the player remains in bounds he can stretch for the goal line pylon and if the ball touches the pylon it's a TD! The amazing thing about Rasheed Bailey's pylon-diving TD last year was that he floated through the air for the final 5 yards before the ball reached the pylon And because he did not touch the ground with any part of his body, despite being over the plane of the sideline, it was a TD! Tom Higgins explains the rule https://www.cfl.ca/2009/08/19/td-attempts-is-the-pylon-in-play/

[Doublezero]

Here’s a hypothetical that has to do with sidelines and out of bounds placement/decisions: Let’s say in the future it’s Bombers vs Argos. Sergio Castillo attempts a 55 yard FG that unfortunately goes wide and lands 10 yards deep into the end zone but near the sideline. It’s fielded there by Argos returner Javon Leake. He spots a seam along the sideline and because our kick coverage hasn’t been great this season he darts 120 yards up the sideline and is untouched all the way into the Bombers end zone. He does not step out of bounds as he gallops all that distance. But the guy is such a hotdog that as he runs up the sideline he taunts the Bombers by holding the ball over the sideline marker - well over the plane of the sideline and out of bounds as he is running. He does this for the entire length of the amazing return. What is the result? Is it Touchdown for the Argos because he didn't step OOB, or Single for the Bombers because the ball was over the plane of the sideline and considered OOB from the moment the hotdog stuck the ball out there? (Bombers win this game BTW)  

[Booch]

21 minutes ago, Doublezero said:

But if your foot is out of bounds, as you say, the play is dead, regardless of where the ball is. And as you say Adams was OOB before the stretch, hence placement at the point where he stepped out and ended the play. You could have 10 foot long arms and extend all you like but the ball would not be placed 10 feet ahead of where you stepped out. And of course the endzone pylon is different than the sideline. The pylon is considered to be in bounds, since the goal line stretches to infinity. As long as the player remains in bounds he can stretch for the goal line pylon and if the ball touches the pylon it's a TD! The amazing thing about Rasheed Bailey's pylon-diving TD last year was that he floated through the air for the final 5 yards before the ball reached the pylon And because he did not touch the ground with any part of his body, despite being over the plane of the sideline, it was a TD! Tom Higgins explains the rule https://www.cfl.ca/2009/08/19/td-attempts-is-the-pylon-in-play/

correct...if u step.....kneel....fall and hand touches...slide.....the ball is placed where u went out if you did not extend it out in front of u...and over the sideline prior to going out....totally undisputable....

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

Yes, but he's a lawyer, rules expert, CBA expert, et al. So checkmate. 

Adding the et al. Chef's kiss. 🙂

[Super Duper Negatron]

This argument is weird. TBurgess is arguing that the ball should be spotted where the ball was when the foot went out of bounds, and he is right. But Booch is arguing that point because its TBurgess, rather than the point he should be arguing, which is that even by that interpretation he didn't have the first down.

This board goes in circles sometimes. It makes me dizzy.

[TBURGESS]

Literally, no one is saying that you can extend the ball after you are marked out. 

1 hour ago, Booch said:

if foot touched at 5 yard line...ball still in field of play....then crosses out at 6...spotted at 5.....no ambiguity there at all...I ref football....so kind of know a bit of how to spot a ball...well used to ref I should clarify

You're right in that instance. (I've also reffed). Furthest point forward. It doesn't matter if it's the ball or the foot. 

Amend from: Marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. to Marked at the furthest point forward when the foot goes out.  Doesn't really change anything in the case of the play we're talking about, the ball was clearly ahead of the foot so it is the furthest point forward. 

If Adams was out before he extended the ball then it's still where the ball was when he went out. If Adams didn't extend the ball until after he was out then the mark was good.

I've seen zero evidence that his foot was out before he extended. Booch says he has, but can't or won't share that evidence & he says you can see it on the replay that I posted, which no one can because the right leg is behind Bighill's head. Best you can say is that you guess his foot was out behind Bighill's head. 

It's a Red Herring argument anyway. It's not where you mark the ball when you go out. It's where was the ball when Adams stepped out or touched the line.  

[Booch]

3 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Literally, no one is saying that you can extend the ball after you are marked out. 

You're right in that instance. (I've also reffed). Furthest point forward. It doesn't matter if it's the ball or the foot. 

Amend from: Marked where the ball is when the foot goes out. to Marked at the furthest point forward when the foot goes out.  Doesn't really change anything in the case of the play we're talking about, the ball was clearly ahead of the foot so it is the furthest point forward. 

If Adams was out before he extended the ball then it's still where the ball was when he went out. If Adams didn't extend the ball until after he was out then the mark was good.

I've seen zero evidence that his foot was out before he extended. Booch says he has, but can't or won't share that evidence & he says you can see it on the replay that I posted, which no one can because the right leg is behind Bighill's head. Best you can say is that you guess his foot was out behind Bighill's head. 

It's a Red Herring argument anyway. It's not where you mark the ball when you go out. It's where was the ball when Adams stepped out or touched the line.  

I can't share all 24....Have said that before in regards to another issue last yr....just doesn't happen....and wont

[TBURGESS]

How I imagine it looks in some members places when I post anything. 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by TBURGESS

[Noeller]

31 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

How I imagine it looks in some members places when I post anything. 

 

100% this is 17to85 anytime someone posts something he vehemently disagrees with.... a mutual friend and I have made fun of him relentlessly for it. Very very true....

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Noeller said:

100% this is 17to85 anytime someone posts something he vehemently disagrees with.... a mutual friend and I have made fun of him relentlessly for it. Very very true....

Did I mention how Lapo would make a wicked GM?