Call it what you want … you need to move on from Collaros

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, Jesse said:

It's funny, because for my entire Blue Bomber fandom, I've always been in favour of the young, up and comer. I'd be searching old scouting reports and stats for Alex Brink and Joey Elliott trying to find ways to convince myself that they could be developed into the guy, or looking at other teams back-ups like a young Collaros or Bo Levi and want us to trade for them.

But now that we have the guy that's led us to Grey Cups, I don't want to let him go, even if it means losing the potential.

It would have been really nice if this part of Brown's career arc lined up with Zach's eventual retirement, but it didn't. So good luck Dru, maybe we'll see you in FA in two years. 

Not many comparables to Dru Brown's first 150 passes though historically.  Collaros about 30 points lower in QBR and quadruple the turnovers...was playing on defending Grey Cup champs.  Reilly had half as much playing time it his first go round with BC before he was the guy in Edmonton and was about 25 points lower in QBR, again playing on a Grey Cup team.  Bo Levi almost 30 points lower through same point of his career, double the turnovers again playing on 12 and 14 win teams.  So the "YEAH BUT THE BOMBERS ARE AWESOME SO DRU BROWN MEANS NOTHING" argument is kind of moot in these comparisons.

We might be in a CFL type of Alex Smith - Pat Mahomes situation.  Obviously a lot more variables in the CFL.

 

[17to85]

4 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

  So the "YEAH BUT THE BOMBERS ARE AWESOME SO DRU BROWN MEANS NOTHING" argument is kind of moot in these comparisons

The whole thing is only valid if it's a shitty team looking at brown to save the franchise. But if it were winnipeg keeping Brown... well we've seen what he does with this team in this situation and this past season it was quite frankly better than collaros. (Small sample size but it is what it is). So if the guy can succeed here it's not as risky as asking him to turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

[JuranBoldenRules]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The whole thing is only valid if it's a shitty team looking at brown to save the franchise. But if it were winnipeg keeping Brown... well we've seen what he does with this team in this situation and this past season it was quite frankly better than collaros. (Small sample size but it is what it is). So if the guy can succeed here it's not as risky as asking him to turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

But also...people who have been watching QB's forever as well as the numbers are saying this guy is special, and that's not based on the supporting cast because there are plenty of younger QB's who have been handed top teams in the league through the years.

The sample size isn't really that small at this point.  It's about the sample of 8 full games for a QB which is half a season.

People were frothing over Reilly for half as much sample.

[17to85]

Yeah this past season Brown showed me everything I needed to see. After his very first game I'd have tossed him aside cause it was awful,  but he can do everything a qb should be able to and can operate a cfl offense efficiently.  

[Jesse]

I agree with everything. Love Dru Brown.

But I'm still in Zach's corner and will let him lead the team until he chooses to walk away or until the wheels actually start to fall off. 

[17to85]

By the time the wheels fall off it is too late. You wanna go back to hunting for reasons why the Alex brinks of the world are going to save us?

[Jesse]

11 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

By the time the wheels fall off it is too late. You wanna go back to hunting for reasons why the Alex brinks of the world are going to save us?

I am in a place and I think the team is still in a place where the proven vet is still worth more than unproven potential. But I 100% understand where you're coming from.

And aside from our personal opinions, I also believe there is zero chance the team moves on from Zach, so there's almost no point in even considering that option if we're sitting here trying to figure out what next year's team will look like. Write #8 in pen.

[Rod Black]

37 minutes ago, Jesse said:

I agree with everything. Love Dru Brown.

But I'm still in Zach's corner and will let him lead the team until he chooses to walk away or until the wheels actually start to fall off. 

This is the most sensible team management perspective. I wouldn’t get excited over words such as “wheels falling off” because it will be evident when he is less than Brown.

[Mark H.]

5 hours ago, Doublezero said:

I would not want Zach's 2024 season to look like Calvillo's final year in Montreal. Even before his career-ending concussion 7 games in, Calvillo's production dropped off considerably in that final year. It was hard to watch such a great QB in decline. My argument in favour of going with Brown over Collaros is simply this: Collaros has always been a high risk - high reward quarterback. He makes throws other QBs would not/could not make. When he's on - it's great. When it's not, well, ask Hammy, Toronto and Sask why they parted ways with him. As QBs get older, and Collaros will be 36 next year, that style of play gives way to a far more a conservative approach. That is the trajectory. I saw the movie Napoleon last night. Same deal; high risk - high reward. Until the strategy exhausts itself and you end up defeated, injured, disgraced and in exile.

His last season...sure.

I'm referring more to a few years earlier.  Calvillo did not have a great season in 2007 - you might recall our DL feasting on him

Trestman arrived in Montreal in 2008: they implemented max protect, which worked very well with Calvillo's precise passing

The results speak for themselves: back to back Grey Cups

 

 

[wbbfan]

7 hours ago, Jesse said:

FA will come eventually. 

Yeah, gonna feel like 9 months till then lol. 

 

5 hours ago, Wanna-B-Fanboy said:

Wally Buono Didn't get his teams to 4 grey cups in a row.

Marcus crandle Cody fajardo and Darian durant won more grey cups each than 4 out of the top 5 QBs in bomber history including khari and dieter brock. 

[kelownabomberfan]

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yeah, gonna feel like 9 months till then lol. 

 

Marcus crandle Cody fajardo and Darian durant won more grey cups each than 4 out of the top 5 QBs in bomber history including khari and dieter brock. 

4 out of the top 5?  Which 5 are those?  Darian Durant doesn't have more cups than Kenny Ploen....

[Brandon]

7 hours ago, Wanna-B-Fanboy said:

Wally Buono Didn't get his teams to 4 grey cups in a row.

I was joking... around here for years people always reference Wally Buono knowing when to cut veterans and how he can do no wrong. 

[SpeedFlex27]

13 hours ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

It’s a small sample size, and if not for the Edmonton game and Collaros age, I’d agree with you 100%

You’re coming from a more logical place. I just can’t shake this feeling that we’re going to see Brown win multiple cups, either here or somewhere else. Thought it since his first start in 2022. 
 

Johnny, he may also play like Dustin Crum. If Brown wants to leave to play in Ottawa then I say more power to him. The money is green but the grass isn't always. 

[SpeedFlex27]

9 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Yeah this past season Brown showed me everything I needed to see. After his very first game I'd have tossed him aside cause it was awful,  but he can do everything a qb should be able to and can operate a cfl offense efficiently.  

"Yeah, but..." I'll let you fill in the rest of the sentence when it comes to Mike O'Shea & his loyalty to his veterans. So, what's this about Dru Brown taking over??? Ain't happening. 

[CodyT]

9 hours ago, Jesse said:

I am in a place and I think the team is still in a place where the proven vet is still worth more than unproven potential. But I 100% understand where you're coming from.

And aside from our personal opinions, I also believe there is zero chance the team moves on from Zach, so there's almost no point in even considering that option if we're sitting here trying to figure out what next year's team will look like. Write #8 in pen.

Another thing that could be considered is that, although unlikely, maybe Walter's finds a way to make everyone happy. Good coin to brown to hang around, Collaros with the team until end of GC host year, and then take over.

I know Browns mentioned he wants to be a starter but sticking around and staying in a good situation opposed to going to a loser squad might be a good play for longevity. 

We've seen a lot of qbs change teams for the payday and stink because the foundation wasn't there. Franklin, Arbuckle, lefors.  Not saying they would have made it in a better environment but I'm not saying they wouldn't have either.

As much as I love a guy like Shoen, maybe you let him go in order to keep Brown. The scouting department has done nice work in finding receivers

And one last thought. Maybe just maybe strevler makes it back to the CFL and brings a one two with him and Zach. That would spell Zach in his bad stretches of play.

I think there's a lot of allys to go down here and I'd say nothing, aside from collaros being a bomber, is a sure bet

 

.. a lot of fomo going on here. And despite some questionable decisions in very recent history bombers management has made mostly sound choices. I still have a lot of faith in the decision makers 

Edited November 25, 2023 by CodyT

[JohnnyAbonny]

8 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Johnny, he may also play like Dustin Crum. If Brown wants to leave to play in Ottawa then I say more power to him. The money is green but the grass isn't always. 

He very well may, and for the Bombers sake I hope he does play like Crum. 
Like I said, it’s just a feeling I get that Brown will be a gooder. 
It’s his ability to stand in the pocket and hit deep/intermediate shots, without getting happy feet like Crum or going to the checkdown too fast like McCheese. 

I know damn well Brown is gone and Collaros stays, it’s the way the club does things, and I get the reasoning. 
 

My question: Is the trajectory of Collaros’ play, plus his salary not almost as big of a risk as going with Brown and using the extra cash to bolster the team in other areas? 

 

[JohnnyAbonny]

Also, if Strev comes back would you rather have 36 year old Zach, or a Brown/Strev combo? 

Edited November 25, 2023 by JohnnyAbonny

[JohnnyAbonny]

17 hours ago, Mark H. said:

His last season...sure.

I'm referring more to a few years earlier.  Calvillo did not have a great season in 2007 - you might recall our DL feasting on him

Trestman arrived in Montreal in 2008: they implemented max protect, which worked very well with Calvillo's precise passing

The results speak for themselves: back to back Grey Cups

 

 

Iirc Calvillo only played half that year, (to support his wife battling cancer? Or some sort of similar family issue) Bombers beat the Als twice in the summer when Calvillo played, but it was Marcus Brady for them in the ESF that year. 

Good point though, Calvillo took his team to 3 cups in a row at age 36-38. 

He never had a competitive backup behind him however.
If Montreal had found and kept a successor for AC and not expected him to carry the team into his 40’s, who knows if they ever fall off? 
 

[Jesse]

33 minutes ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

 

My question: Is the trajectory of Collaros’ play, plus his salary not almost as big of a risk as going with Brown and using the extra cash to bolster the team in other areas? 

 

Depends on your organizational goals and how you view the rest of the league.

Do we think that this team as it’s constructed is still going to challenge for first place over the rest of Collaros’ contract? Is it more important to us to keep the current window open and try to get Grey Cups right now?

Or is this roster falling short across the league and we feel that there’s potential to crack open a new window, maybe spend the next season or two reloading and aim for a separate championship window later?

Bird in hand vs. two in the bush scenario.

[JohnnyAbonny]

1 minute ago, Jesse said:

Depends on your organizational goals and how you view the rest of the league.

Do we think that this team as it’s constructed is still going to challenge for first place over the rest of Collaros’ contract? Is it more important to us to keep the current window open and try to get Grey Cups right now?

Or is this roster falling short across the league and we feel that there’s potential to crack open a new window, maybe spend the next season or two reloading and aim for a separate championship window later?

Bird in hand vs. two in the bush scenario.

Personally this is how I feel going into 2024. I’m not sure we have anything besides our own bird in our hand. 

[wbbfan]

13 hours ago, kelownabomberfan said:

4 out of the top 5?  Which 5 are those?  Darian Durant doesn't have more cups than Kenny Ploen....

Our leading passers. Ploen is the only one a head. 

[wbbfan]

13 hours ago, Brandon said:

I was joking... around here for years people always reference Wally Buono knowing when to cut veterans and how he can do no wrong. 

I think to an extent the top tier coaches generally do that well. The don did it as well as any one I saw. He constantly found and replaced vets with young guys. Many of those vets still had meat on the bone and we with coach Ritchie at times made use of those vets. 
 Old Dave was the ride or die with his guys, and that’s what crash and burned us after 2001. When vets left his teams they had nothing left. 
 I think buonos real strength was finding great ast coaches, and developing/getting the most out of his QBs. 

[SpeedFlex27]

22 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

But also...people who have been watching QB's forever as well as the numbers are saying this guy is special, and that's not based on the supporting cast because there are plenty of younger QB's who have been handed top teams in the league through the years.

The sample size isn't really that small at this point.  It's about the sample of 8 full games for a QB which is half a season.

People were frothing over Reilly for half as much sample.

"Zach Collaros is my starting qb",  says Mike O'Shea as he butts into this conversation. Why are people even arguing this point? Dru Brown has played his last game asa Blue Bomber. Zach is O'Shea's guy.  We all know that. 

[Bigblue204]

10 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

"Zach Collaros is my starting qb",  says Mike O'Shea as he butts into this conversation. Why are people even arguing this point? Dru Brown has played his last game asa Blue Bomber. Zach is O'Shea's guy.  We all know that. 

Normally I'd agree....but...qb is the one spot where the team has been willing to make changes. Willy was his guy, then Nichols, then Strev, now Collaros. I don't think they move on from him honestly, but I'm not sure it's not going to happen either.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Bigblue204

[SpeedFlex27]

27 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Normally I'd agree....but...qb is the one spot where the team has been willing to make changes. Willy was his guy, then Nichols, then Strev, now Collaros. I don't think they move on from him honestly, but I'm not sure it's not going to happen either.

Things changed because of injury. It wasn't a natural progression.