Call it what you want … you need to move on from Collaros

[Booch]

Just now, Jesse said:

Pretty hilarious that you'd expect him to change his philosophy after 4 straight Grey Cup appearances. 

We will bring it back as much as we possibly can next year.

u just dont get it....and last 2 grey cup failures had a similar feel to them...and that's smack dab due to this philosophy...it worked in 2019..2012....going on 4 and 5 yrs now....you don't evolve and adapt...u fall by the wayside...If you think giving guys like Thomas..Briggs...Jackson...McRea...Bennett...Kolo..Gauthier..Miller...Cadlawader...Schmeckle..Biggie roster spots "just because" you like em, and they been good soldiers, or bring in competition but don't actually 100 percent let them earn a spot....bring back some PR guys we have had kicking around for yrs, but never can push a non-performing vet off the roster....and draft a bunch of Ham and Eggers whose sole purpose is only teams...then I dont know what to tell you....and that would be an epic failure of an off-season of ...well epic proportions.

Especially when you have younger, high end talent waiting there....with no hope in hell of getting a shot...and they know it....so kiss your talent goodbye. Fact many don't know is we almost lost Woli due to this, and the lack of use a few yrs back....And it surprised me he actually re-signed. I can see it with others tho now, as things have changed, and we lost 2 straight cups and some of it was due to roster issues....I dont give a crap with the "yeah buts"..."we been to 4"...yap yap yap...means diddly if you don't win the last game of the year....and we should have been reveling in 4 straight wins right now.....but we aren't

[Stickem]

Right on Booch.....Doug Brown was quoted as saying if you as a team are not evolving and changing you are stagnant....Stagnation means you will fall by the wayside ...I don't like that scenario and although continuity has it's advantage....you have to be continuing with younger and better in some instances....Football 101

Edited November 28, 2023 by Stickem

[Jesse]

5 minutes ago, Booch said:

u just dont get it....and last 2 grey cup failures had a similar feel to them...and that's smack dab due to this philosophy...it worked in 2019..2012....going on 4 and 5 yrs now....you don't evolve and adapt...u fall by the wayside...If you think giving guys like Thomas..Briggs...Jackson...McRea...Bennett...Kolo..Gauthier..Miller...Cadlawader...Schmeckle..Biggie roster spots "just because" you like em, and they been good soldiers, or bring in competition but don't actually 100 percent let them earn a spot....bring back some PR guys we have had kicking around for yrs, but never can push a non-performing vet off the roster....and draft a bunch of Ham and Eggers whose sole purpose is only teams...then I dont know what to tell you....and that would be an epic failure of an off-season of ...well epic proportions.

Especially when you have younger, high end talent waiting there....with no hope in hell of getting a shot...and they know it....so kiss your talent goodbye. Fact many don't know is we almost lost Woli due to this, and the lack of use a few yrs back....And it surprised me he actually re-signed. I can see it with others tho now, as things have changed, and we lost 2 straight cups and some of it was due to roster issues....I dont give a crap with the "yeah buts"..."we been to 4"...yap yap yap...means diddly if you don't win the last game of the year....and we should have been reveling in 4 straight wins right now.....but we aren't

That's fine. And I've also been saying the same all year. But MOS has made no secrets about his philosophy and it just strikes me as funny that you're continuously surprised by it. 

[blue85gold]

50 minutes ago, Booch said:

I really don't like the comments Oshea made in his season ending presser....how he thinks some his vets are still more than capable and sees no reason to move on from some...Big Red Flag in my eyes...and not a good forshadowing for 2024 at all...as it puts team even further behind in reloading and re-tooling for 2025

Either he's really playing sneaky buggers and not letting on...or he is as clueless and stubborn as many suspect, and still playing the favorites and favoring his guys....and I lean to the latter....if we go thru this same bs at start of season I hope Walters has it in him to play the heavy and be Osh's boss!

Remains to be seen if he'll adapt or not. 

Either way, there is no way he would say anything else publicly other than full support for the guys on the team. 

[Stickem]

8 minutes ago, blue85gold said:

Remains to be seen if he'll adapt or not. 

Either way, there is no way he would say anything else publicly other than full support for the guys on the team. 

Yup.....loyal to a fault....you can only hope that fault doesn't turn into a chasm

[GCn20]

17 minutes ago, Stickem said:

Yup.....loyal to a fault....you can only hope that fault doesn't turn into a chasm

Yup...we can only hope. So far so good.

32 minutes ago, Stickem said:

Right on Booch.....Doug Brown was quoted as saying if you as a team are not evolving and changing you are stagnant....Stagnation means you will fall by the wayside ...I don't like that scenario and although continuity has it's advantage....you have to be continuing with younger and better in some instances....Football 101

We will evolve and have evolved every year under MOS. This year won't be any different. Look back to the 2019 Cup and count the number of players still on the team.  23 players active and reserve out of 56. That's a 60% of the roster turnover in the best of times our club has seen. It is absolute nonsense that people suggest we have no roster turnover under MOS.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[Booch]

3 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Yup...we can only hope. So far so good.

We will evolve and have evolved every year under MOS. This year won't be any different. Look back to the 2019 Cup and count the number of players still on the team. 

25...but we also have some no-contributers that are new and need to be expunged too....Thats a lot of non-turnover from 5 yrs ago...continuity is good when you dont continue with some too long...we have/had too many continued guys from same time line....need to know when and where to spread it out...and last 2 yrs we havnt at all....and when we did have some guys who could have...should have stepped in...they were blocked by sub par tenured coach's favorites....and thats not a good thing....

Edited November 28, 2023 by Booch

[GCn20]

2 minutes ago, Booch said:

25

I got 23. I must be missing a couple. However, that's 40% of our total players remaining and I can guarantee that number shrinks by at least 5 or 6 again this offseason. We will have turnover where it is needed, not where some fans are going to think it should be, but where the club identifies.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[rebusrankin]

5 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Yup...we can only hope. So far so good.

We will evolve and have evolved every year under MOS. This year won't be any different. Look back to the 2019 Cup and count the number of players still on the team. 

What evolution or changes did you see this year? Go back to the training camp threads and there are comments about the lack of competition. Same with roster management, its been there all year. What evidence leads you to believe MOS will cut some of our older vets, hold open competitions, infuse some new talent onto the roster and do a better job of roster management?

[GCn20]

4 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

What evolution or changes did you see this year? Go back to the training camp threads and there are comments about the lack of competition. Same with roster management, its been there all year. What evidence leads you to believe MOS will cut some of our older vets, hold open competitions, infuse some new talent onto the roster and do a better job of roster management?

What leads you to believe he won't? He has done so pretty much every year he has been here. How many rookies does he have to roster for you guys to believe he is turning over the roster fast enough? Since 2021 beginning we have turned over 30 spots on the team, that's an average of 10 roster spots a year. Not enough? Change for the sake of change is stupid. Guys need to step up and take spots.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[Booch]

Just now, rebusrankin said:

What evolution or changes did you see this year? Go back to the training camp threads and there are comments about the lack of competition. Same with roster management, its been there all year. What evidence leads you to believe MOS will cut some of our older vets, hold open competitions, infuse some new talent onto the roster and do a better job of roster management?

there was none...we had unearthed some....but they were cast away....or stuck on a PR ....and I see zero evidence of it....he could have said in his presser that we will look at the roster and see where we may need to go younger, or move on from...totally acceptable and many coaches before him and after him have said that...or will say it....but he flat out in his Mike Oshea way said there are none....and thats worrisome...especially when some carry significant salaries that will impact re-signing some of our younger talent, or getting a key piece in FA 

Hopefully Walters and the assistants take that ability away from him....and allocate the dollars elsewhere....

[GCn20]

3 minutes ago, Booch said:

there was none...we had unearthed some....but they were cast away....or stuck on a PR ....and I see zero evidence of it....he could have said in his presser that we will look at the roster and see where we may need to go younger, or move on from...totally acceptable and many coaches before him and after him have said that...or will say it....but he flat out in his Mike Oshea way said there are none....and thats worrisome...especially when some carry significant salaries that will impact re-signing some of our younger talent, or getting a key piece in FA 

Hopefully Walters and the assistants take that ability away from him....and allocate the dollars elsewhere....

He did not say there were none. Not in any way, shape, or form. He flat out said there would be changes because changes are inevitable year to year. I don't mind you guys criticizing MOS, but you are putting words in his mouth that are completely contrary to what he said.  He was flat out asked if he thought some guys would be back or not, and he stated that some will retire, some will be back, some will be SMS casualties and that they would be looking at the roster carefully.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[Booch]

Just now, GCn20 said:

What leads you to believe he won't? He has done so pretty much every year he has been here. How many rookies does he have to roster for you guys to believe he is turning over the roster fast enough? Since 2021 beginning we have turned over 30 spots on the team, that's an average of 10 roster spots a year. Not enough?

thing is a lot of those guys were young...went to NFL...(Alford...Ford..Kongbo..Desjarlais)...or went and signed back elsewhere...or guys who got injured (Maston...Taylor) so that was not done purposefully...had no choice.

In last 2.....3 years what player did we move on from and replaced with a younger...better player who lost his job in TC?....I can think of.........none

 

Just now, GCn20 said:

He did not say there were none. Not in any way, shape, or form. He flat out said there would be changes because changes are inevitable year to year. I don't mind you guys criticizing MOS, but you are putting words in his mouth that are completely contrary to what he said. 

He said none of the guys in 30+ range showed signs/reasons to be replaced....sure he said changes, but those will be the ones out of his control...NFL opp....Can't afford...but part of that can't afford will be holding on to higher priced vets who really have no place here now contribution wise as a starter, or are teams only guys....twist it all you wnt...but he refuses to accept the idea of being a Bouno..Murphy...Mathews...and will fall on his sword like a Ritchie...and thats a huge Osh flaw...for all his good traits...he has a real bad not good trait

[Fatty Liver]

10 minutes ago, Booch said:

thing is a lot of those guys were young...went to NFL...(Alford...Ford..Kongbo..Desjarlais)...or went and signed back elsewhere...or guys who got injured (Maston...Taylor) so that was not done purposefully...had no choice.

In last 2.....3 years what player did we move on from and replaced with a younger...better player who lost his job in TC?....I can think of.........none

With one year contracts now the norm, those decisions are usually made during the off-season, two players they decided to move on from are Darvin Adams and Nick Taylor.  Similarly the decision to move on from Lawrence and Darby has probably already been made.

[Super Duper Negatron]

This team turned Fajardo into a legend. Get rid of all of them.

[GCn20]

37 minutes ago, Booch said:

thing is a lot of those guys were young...went to NFL...(Alford...Ford..Kongbo..Desjarlais)...or went and signed back elsewhere...or guys who got injured (Maston...Taylor) so that was not done purposefully...had no choice.

In last 2.....3 years what player did we move on from and replaced with a younger...better player who lost his job in TC?....I can think of.........none

 

He said none of the guys in 30+ range showed signs/reasons to be replaced....sure he said changes, but those will be the ones out of his control...NFL opp....Can't afford...but part of that can't afford will be holding on to higher priced vets who really have no place here now contribution wise as a starter, or are teams only guys....twist it all you wnt...but he refuses to accept the idea of being a Bouno..Murphy...Mathews...and will fall on his sword like a Ritchie...and thats a huge Osh flaw...for all his good traits...he has a real bad not good trait

Why limit it to training camp? In the past 3 years just off the top of my head we have replaced in-season, Tyquan Glass, Des Lawrence, Winston Rose, Alden Darby. In the offseason we moved on from Charles Nelson, Mike Jones, Darvin Adams, Nick Taylor. Michael Couture.

But let me ask you. Who did we keep too long in this time frame? 

Bryant, Biggie, Neuf, Hardrick, Jefferson, Jeffcoat? Nah. They were all good this last year. Jake Thomas is the only one in the past several years that I think an argument could be made that O'Shea may have held onto too long. Surely, you have many more names than that? You must based on your argument that O'Shea is way too loyal to aging vets. Tell me who warranted getting cut and replaced?

[Booch]

23 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

With one year contracts now the norm, those decisions are usually made during the off-season, two players they decided to move on from are Darvin Adams and Nick Taylor.  Similarly the decision to move on from Lawrence and Darby has probably already been made.

Taylor was injured so they really had no choice....35 yr old vet coming off an achilles injury I would hope they moved on from...especially when he wouldnt be ready for the season..And really I would have kept Darvin over Ellingson...He offered tons to the team in many capacities, and could have been a valuable contributor in playoffs

[GCn20]

6 minutes ago, Booch said:

Taylor was injured so they really had no choice....35 yr old vet coming off an achilles injury I would hope they moved on from...especially when he wouldnt be ready for the season..And really I would have kept Darvin over Ellingson...He offered tons to the team in many capacities, and could have been a valuable contributor in playoffs

It was time to move on from Darvin so we did. Just as there are some guys this year that will be facing the same outlook. Taylor, Mike Jones etc all valuable contributors to our cup wins. We moved on. I see no reason to believe that our management team will suddenly not do the same this year. Forgot Andrew Harris as well. The consummate Bomber really, but he lost a step and some reliability and bye bye.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[Booch]

 

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

Why limit it to training camp? In the past 3 years just off the top of my head we have replaced in-season, Tyquan Glass, Des Lawrence, Winston Rose, Alden Darby. In the offseason we moved on from Charles Nelson, Mike Jones, Darvin Adams, Nick Taylor. Michael Couture.

But let me ask you. Who did we keep too long in this time frame? 

Bryant, Biggie, Neuf, Hardrick, Jefferson, Jeffcoat? Nah. They were all good this last year. Jake Thomas is the only one in the past several years that I think an argument could be made that O'Shea may have held onto too long. Surely, you have many more names than that? You must based on your argument that O'Shea is way too loyal to aging vets. Tell me who warranted getting cut and replaced?

Glass was a garbage pick up....Lawrence was hurt, and still here...and likely a better option than Houston..Couture left cause we couldnt afford him...and was replaced by Kolo...who was a down grade, and should have been behind Eli..Taylor blew out an achilles...or he would have been back....Rose should not have been parked....I'd say the same for Darby too really....Charles Nelson??...Like really??...Mike Jones also left for more money....not like we wanted to move on...Adams should have been kept but we signed a broken down Ellingson...who was a band aid and did absolutely nothing come playoffs....

Too long guys..Thomas....Briggs....couple guys who languished on PR and never saw light of day....couple still there...and no not talking about Richmond....Why was Scmeckle kept....even Bennett.....offer us nothing....and it's not just aging vets....a vet who serves no purpose other than teams and not a viable backup....what competition was brought in to challenge Jake, Walker....Lawson.....Tanner Schmeckle...or whatever his name is??...puke.....who was brought in to push Biggie and be succesion plan...and be on a PR to develop?...nobody....who was brought in to push Wilson and develop as he wasnt even ready to start season?....nobody....but we rolled out inadequate Briggs and heavy doses of even ore inadequate Thomas....and only viable guy we had to back that up was Schmeckle??....like wtf

Clements and Cole...both good solid contributors and hopefully starting next yr over what we have now....but look how long it took us to finally realize Cole was a player???

We carried no viable DA end basically all yr...why?...had 2 on PR...but never saw roster....why?.....Why didnt we bring in a viable return guy when our return game was worse I ever seen in over decade? You tell me....where was the backup plan on the PR....Maybe Schmeckle tries hard doing at in practice.....We cut an actual real fullback...who actually had impact on special teams....and was canadian and would have helped the roster....why?....why didnt the powers that be not see a canadian in that role would be far superior as we could roster another import end..dt...db?...do you seriously think that was best use of roster?

Whole lotta why's and head scratchers....

Most guys we moved on from last few yrs were guys who left for NFL....Left in free agency, or were hurt

When Kongbo came back the second time last yr we lost him cause we had no cap space...I dunno call me dumb but I would cut Thomas right there and there is a good portion of what would have been needed....as he was already on a serious downtrend and definitely not the future....Thats the tough decisions that need to be made as opposed to making with your heart....and it's not being done here

 

8 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

It was time to move on from Darvin so we did. Just as there are some guys this year that will be facing the same outlook. Taylor, Mike Jones etc all valuable contributors to our cup wins. We moved on. I see no reason to believe that our management team will suddenly not do the same this year. Forgot Andrew Harris as well. The consummate Bomber really, but he lost a step and some reliability and bye bye.

Harris basically checked out here on his own...and slotting him ahead of BO would have been totally idiotic....

[Jesse]

Booch, most of the guys you are so worked up by are special teamers and back-ups. These are not huge detriments to the team. Kongbo chose to go somewhere else because he thought he was starting material and didn't want to be stuck behind the Jeff's, imo. 

[Noeller]

1 minute ago, Jesse said:

Booch, most of the guys you are so worked up by are special teamers and back-ups. These are not huge detriments to the team. Kongbo chose to go somewhere else because he thought he was starting material and didn't want to be stuck behind the Jeff's, imo. 

They are in so much as they take up a roster spot which could otherwise go to a useful rotational piece, like a desperately-needed DL-er.......

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, Fatty Liver said:

With one year contracts now the norm, those decisions are usually made during the off-season, two players they decided to move on from are Darvin Adams and Nick Taylor.  Similarly the decision to move on from Lawrence and Darby has probably already been made.

I would think the writing on the wall is there for Winston Rose and Alden Darby as well. Unless he had some kind of injury we were not privy too.

6 minutes ago, Noeller said:

They are in so much as they take up a roster spot which could otherwise go to a useful rotational piece, like a desperately-needed DL-er.......

Minor stuff still though. We've been hearing this rant for months now like it's a deal breaker on MOS or something, and it is quite honestly about the least significant coaching criticism there could be.  A coach that tends to slightly over play his best players. I shudder to think. Look guys are kept on the roster for a myriad of reasons both football and locker room related. Not every one of us has access to all the information. Guys are slacking  or coaches want to send a message on work ethic to some guys, they get left off the roster for instance. We, the fans, don't know that and criticize when that is totally warranted. It's beating a dead horse at this point already. Yes, MOS makes some curious choices sometimes. It's his quirk. We best all get over it.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20

[Booch]

4 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Booch, most of the guys you are so worked up by are special teamers and back-ups. These are not huge detriments to the team. Kongbo chose to go somewhere else because he thought he was starting material and didn't want to be stuck behind the Jeff's, imo. 

key in bold

And yeah...our teamers and back-ups for most part were/are awful or non existant...thats the whole point...humg on to way too many for no reason other than been here

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

They are in so much as they take up a roster spot which could otherwise go to a useful rotational piece, like a desperately-needed DL-er.......

thank you...some people just cant see the forest thru the trees....its a major issue right now with this teams makeup

[Noeller]

6 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Minor stuff still though

Wasn't minor come Grey Cup, when we could have desperately used Rose, Haba, and Fox on the roster........

[GCn20]

4 minutes ago, Booch said:

key in bold

And yeah...our teamers and back-ups for most part were/are awful or non existant...thats the whole point...humg on to way too many for no reason other than been here

thank you...some people just cant see the forest thru the trees....its a major issue right now with this teams makeup

It's an issue. Whether it is a major one is very highly debateable.

2 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Wasn't minor come Grey Cup, when we could have desperately used Rose, Haba, and Fox on the roster........

Could we have? Explain what makes you think any one of them would have made a lick of a difference. I saw no tiredness in the Jeffs or Walker did you? Rose was out because of poor play himself. However, his play calling presence may have helped the coverage busts so I'll give you that....but we don't know...maybe he gets torched all game.  Desperately needed? Hyperbole imo.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GCn20