Call it what you want … you need to move on from Collaros

[17to85]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

I don't think anyone here sold Ford short. What I, and others, were stating is that he still needs development. I have no doubt that if developed more he has all the ability to be a very good CFL QB. Just isn't there yet and despite what some people here think playing a QB that isn't ready is NOT the way to develop them. It's how you break them

 

No? Here's a post from this thread...

 

Doesn’t a qb need to be able to throw a ball? Ford can’t

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

I don't think anyone here sold Ford short. What I, and others, were stating is that he still needs development. I have no doubt that if developed more he has all the ability to be a very good CFL QB. Just isn't there yet and despite what some people here think playing a QB that isn't ready is NOT the way to develop them. It's how you break them

 

No? Here's a post from this thread...

 

Doesn’t a qb need to be able to throw a ball? Ford can’t

[SpeedFlex27]

5 hours ago, 17to85 said:

No, no one has ever said that. Just that he was a middling passer who got the yardage record through longevity.

So, that meant Allen was better than the guys younger than him at qb. They couldn't beat him out. As an older veteran Allen competed against & beat defensive players a decade younger or more than him. This longevity excuse is BS. I've heard it said when he still played & never bought in. Allen played as there was no one better. No head coach is going to play someone who can't get the job done. He played because he won. What is a "middling passer"?

[MOBomberFan]

Had to look it all up to be sure... that my memory wasn't failing me...

Allen had a career 56.3% completion rate and an 83.something QBR. Those don't look like HoF numbers at a glance. He had a HoF career, but few QBs get so many years to fill out their stats.

Allen's completion % improved and trended upwards late in his career... without a string of later seasons of 60%+ his career accuracy would be downright brutal.

Clearly his running ability buoyed his... less than stellar passing skills. He parlayed his athleticism and ever-growing experience into a very long career that allowed his passing yardage and TDs to pile up. It takes nothing away from his illustrious career to say his longevity helped him pile up the stats.

All that said, it is unforgettable how  Allen went off in his 40s, he sat a lot of critics down with his Grey Cup MVP followed by 5000 yards and CFL MOP the next season. He's the exception that proves some guys still can get it done well past the usual expiration date

Edited December 31, 2023 by MOBomberFan

[SpeedFlex27]

46 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Had to look it all up to be sure... that my memory wasn't failing me...

Allen had a career 56.3% completion rate and an 83.something QBR. Those don't look like HoF numbers at a glance. He had a HoF career, but few QBs get so many years to fill out their stats.

Allen's completion % improved and trended upwards late in his career... without a string of later seasons of 60%+ his career accuracy would be downright brutal.

Clearly his running ability buoyed his... less than stellar passing skills. He parlayed his athleticism and ever-growing experience into a very long career that allowed his passing yardage and TDs to pile up. It takes nothing away from his illustrious career to say his longevity helped him pile up the stats.

All that said, it is unforgettable how  Allen went off in his 40s, he sat a lot of critics down with his Grey Cup MVP followed by 5000 yards and CFL MOP the next season. He's the exception that proves some guys still can get it done well past the usual expiration date

Look at other HOF qbs from the 50's & 60's with their completion averages, interceptions & TD passes. Especially Ron Lancaster. His nimbers weren't great yet he made it. 

[MOBomberFan]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Look at other HOF qbs from the 50's & 60's with their completion averages, interceptions & TD passes. Especially Ron Lancaster. His nimbers weren't great yet he made it. 

Yep Lancaster has some brutal stats for a legend of the game.

Allen does deserve to be in the HoF, imo, if I'm being unclear.

[17to85]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

So, that meant Allen was better than the guys younger than him at qb. They couldn't beat him out. As an older veteran Allen competed against & beat defensive players a decade younger or more than him. This longevity excuse is BS. I've heard it said when he still played & never bought in. Allen played as there was no one better. No head coach is going to play someone who can't get the job done. He played because he won. What is a "middling passer"?

It's ok to admit that Allen wasn't an amazing passer and relied on his running to make his career as a qb. I won't ever question his playoff success, but dude was never a top teir passer (which is different from qb as a whole).

Honestly Allen was a guy teams tended to settle for. 

[Jesse]

6 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Look at other HOF qbs from the 50's & 60's with their completion averages, interceptions & TD passes. Especially Ron Lancaster. His nimbers weren't great yet he made it. 

Yeah, we can’t apply modern standards to previous eras. Many of the older QBs threw as many INTs as TDs with 50% passing completion %. There was not nearly as much focus on ball protection as there is now.

[Noeller]

Damon Allen is probably the most overrated QB in CFL history. 

[Mark H.]

36 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Damon Allen is probably the most overrated QB in CFL history. 

Plus also...he never played in Fort Hew

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, Noeller said:

Damon Allen is probably the most overrated QB in CFL history. 

Tell me how you came to that conclusion, coach. 

[Bigblue204]

11 hours ago, Noeller said:

Damon Allen is probably the most overrated QB in CFL history. 

I'd like to introduce you to Kerry Joseph

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

I'd like to introduce you to Kerry Joseph

My guess is the ruff riders are going to keep finding out the hard way that they employ the present day most overrated qb in TH.

[Mark H.]

2 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

My guess is the ruff riders are going to keep finding out the hard way that they employ the present day most overrated qb in TH.

Another guy who can be serviceable, with good pieces around him.  Plenty of grey cups have been won that way.

But alas...the Riders have hardly any...

[GCn20]

On 2024-01-01 at 12:30 PM, HardCoreBlue said:

My guess is the ruff riders are going to keep finding out the hard way that they employ the present day most overrated qb in TH.

I'm not that sure that Harris has ever been all that highly rated. I think 95% of people feel he is an average CFL QB.

[Fatty Liver]

38 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I'm not that sure that Harris has ever been all that highly rated. I think 95% of people feel he is an average CFL QB.

I don't know how you determine average, but if you plugged Harris into the Bomber offence I think he would be effective and win as many games as Zach does, it may look more like Nichols, but it could still work.  He reads defences well and moves the ball quickly with accuracy, it's up to management to put the right pieces in place to complement his skill set and protect him.  If he'd stayed in Mtl. this past season, it could well have been him raising the Cup instead of Fajardo, who is also probably considered an "average" QB.

[White Out]

On 2024-01-01 at 1:13 AM, Noeller said:

Damon Allen is probably the most overrated QB in CFL history. 

Piping hot take holy smokes lol. 

[GCn20]

19 hours ago, Fatty Liver said:

I don't know how you determine average, but if you plugged Harris into the Bomber offence I think he would be effective and win as many games as Zach does, it may look more like Nichols, but it could still work.  He reads defences well and moves the ball quickly with accuracy, it's up to management to put the right pieces in place to complement his skill set and protect him.  If he'd stayed in Mtl. this past season, it could well have been him raising the Cup instead of Fajardo, who is also probably considered an "average" QB.

If any of that happened I might reconsider my stance on him. However, coulda woulda shoulda doesn't make an average QB any better. There is a loooong list of average QBs that if they had gotten a better shake team wise might have been considered better QBs through association. At one time many years ago, he was a good CFL QB. That ship sailed a few years ago.

Edited January 3 by GCn20

[Noeller]

2 hours ago, White Out said:

Piping hot take holy smokes lol. 

never said he was BAD..... said he was overrated. Which he absolutely is. A very average QB who managed to play forever because he's Gumby, and never got hurt, so he racked up stats due to longevity. I always go back to "there's a reason he wasn't a first ballot HOF-er, despite all his 'stats'..." 

[HardCoreBlue]

20 hours ago, Fatty Liver said:

I don't know how you determine average, but if you plugged Harris into the Bomber offence I think he would be effective and win as many games as Zach does, it may look more like Nichols, but it could still work.  He reads defences well and moves the ball quickly with accuracy, it's up to management to put the right pieces in place to complement his skill set and protect him.  If he'd stayed in Mtl. this past season, it could well have been him raising the Cup instead of Fajardo, who is also probably considered an "average" QB.

Ahhhhhh nope.

[Colin Unger]

Mostly agree with Noeller. If you're rating him amongst the CFL's greatest based on his career stats then you are over rating the guy.  Id rather have a qb who was great for 10 years and then another qb who was great for another 10 years then one qb who was good for 20. He's basically Vernon Adams if he would stay healthy and play a long time as his current level of play. 

Edited January 3 by Colin Unger

[Jesse]

19 minutes ago, Colin Unger said:

Mostly agree with Noeller. If you're rating him amongst the CFL's greatest based on his career stats then you are over rating the guy.  Id rather have a qb who was great for 10 years and then another qb who was great for another 10 years then one qb who was good for 20. He's basically Vernon Adams if he would stay healthy and play a long time as his current level of play. 

I don't think anyone puts Allen up there with Flutie and Moon, etc. though. 

It seems less that he's overrated and more that Noeller wants to add a "yeah, but" anytime someone mentions his accomplishments. 

[GCn20]

2 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Ahhhhhh nope.

I kinda have my doubts as well, but I think he would have great stats but get hurt, or find ways to lose games.

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

I kinda have my doubts as well, but I think he would have great stats but get hurt, or find ways to lose games.

Agreed.  He would have good numbers but we'd be a .500 football team

In 2015 for the Argos and 2016 for the Redblacks - he played some of his better ball

Yet, a 41 year old Burris had to come off the bench and take over the Redblacks in 2016

[SpeedFlex27]

8 hours ago, Noeller said:

never said he was BAD..... said he was overrated. Which he absolutely is. A very average QB who managed to play forever because he's Gumby, and never got hurt, so he racked up stats due to longevity. I always go back to "there's a reason he wasn't a first ballot HOF-er, despite all his 'stats'..." 

You absolutely & I'm saying this with about as much respect as I can without being insulting... but you know nothing about what you speak. Being a first ballot HOF'er is nothing but politics about a very political institution. Being a first ballot HOF'er has more to do with popularity among the selection committee judges than performance on the field.

How can someone like Hank Burris make it in on the first ballot & not Damon Allen? How is it that Pinball Clemons never made it as a first ballot HOF'er? Does that mean that Clemons exploits on the field mean less because he wasn't voted in on the first ballot? Robert Drummond & Craig Ellis have never made it. Neither has QB Joe Zuger or Cornerback Joe Hollimon. Oh & Doug Brown never made it on the first ballot either, so according to your logic, Brown's career must be diminished because he never made it into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

The CFHOF Selection Committee is a joke. It has been a joke for years. It's all based on popularity or the players the judges liked/disliked when they played against, watched or covered them in the media., Induction is not always based on their on field exploits. I have no doubt that Allen deserved to have been there on the first ballot but it never happened. But to me, the problem with the Hall of Fame isn't the players who are in there but the players who aren't & why?

Edited January 4 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

7 hours ago, Colin Unger said:

Mostly agree with Noeller. If you're rating him amongst the CFL's greatest based on his career stats then you are over rating the guy.  Id rather have a qb who was great for 10 years and then another qb who was great for another 10 years then one qb who was good for 20. He's basically Vernon Adams if he would stay healthy and play a long time as his current level of play. 

Okay Colin, your theory is full of holes. matter of fact, it's pretty dumb. There's usually not another qb ready to go. Then the team with no qb goes into the dumpster when the veteran leaves... Which we've seen so many times.

How often have we seen a team fall apart because they don't have a qb ready to go when a veteran qb retires? How many teams can afford to pay for two great qbs on their roster with the salary cap?? Just look around the CFL & figure it out.

You know the teams that have collapsed over the last 10 years. Ottawa, Saskatchewan, Calgary, Montreal (after Calvillo), Edmonton (after Reilly), Hamilton, the Bombers of a decade ago... How many qbs play at a high level for 10 years let alone 23? Only one that I know of & he won 4 Grey Cups with 3 different teams but who wasn't a first ballot HOF'er. 

As far as your Vernon Adams comparison goes. A pretty good qb but Allen had won at least one Grey Cup title & maybe two if you compare both careers of the two players at the same time period in their careers. So, that doesn't fly either.

Another thing, when Allen played for the Eskimos, the Stamps were the juggernauts of the Western Conference with Flutie, Garcia & Dickenson as their starting qbs. Twice Allen came into McMahon Stadium for the WDF & beat the heavily favoured Stamps as the Eskimos starting qb in 1993 & for the Lions in 2000. Then he beat the Bombers in 1993 that season to win the GC. As much as I'm a Bomber fan holding out hope saying had Dunigan played in that GC in 93 we'd have won, there's no guarantee that would have happened. Even though we'd like to think so. We'll never know. 

Yep, there goes Damon Allen. Former leading passer prior to Anthony Calvillo in the CFL with over 72,381 yards in the air, 394 touchdown passes & almost 11,920 yards rushing with another 93 touchdown on the ground, That's 487 touchdowns Allen had a hand in either throwing the ball or running.

An undefeated GC champion. Won championships with Edmonton twice as well as BC & Toronto. A 3 time CFL Grey Cup MOP (87, 93 & 04) & one CFL MOP Award in 2005. He was a CFL Eastern Division All Star in 1991, 1998 & 2005. He was an All Canadian in 1999 & 2005. As well as a CFLPA All Star in 1999 & 2005.

Yep, just the most overrated qb who obviously got his stats because he played so long in the CFL because some fans say so. They also say he was just an average guy who got lucky. You keep thinking that, Colin & Noeller. 

Edited January 4 by SpeedFlex27