CFL PA What to negotiate for next?

[BigBlue]

2 hours ago, Sard said:

How much do you think the salary cap goes up by every year?

2015 - $5.05 M

2016 - $5.1 M

2017 - $5.15 M

2018 - $5.2 M

2019 - $5.25 M

2020 - $5.3 M (cancelled season)

2021 - $5.35 M (shortened season)

2022 - $5.35 M

2023 - $5.45 M

2024 - $5.525 M

With the cap only going up by $50K to $75K, asking them to use $250,000 would be asking some players to take a pay cut to make it work, and the PA would never advocate for that.

I totally agree with you. Those incremental increases were prearranged. The next major negotiation is still a couple of years away. What the financial situation of the  league is a big unknown right now. If we are still in these tight finances (and I am guessing that the missing the covid season has a lot to do with that) then it is just stay in financial survival mode.

However, if we are continuing to see TV fan ratings going up there could be a substantially larger amount of money available for the salary cap. It might even be a quantum leap. When such discoveries are made financial decisions in a compacted time frame are not always made with the greatest wisdom. 

Preplanning what to do with newfound money is not senseless. It often makes a great deal of difference; in order to negotiate well; you have to know what is truly important and what makes a big difference. Otherwise, the money just goes to the top end of the player pool, as the all-stars demand and the general managers compete. That is the opposite of planning.

So at the next player negotiations, if there is not a source of new money from increased viewership or attendance, then I agree that the best thing to focus on is player safety and procedural methods to ensure that safety. One item I have harked on in the past is quarterback protection. There are many other issues. There is also methodology to increase player security and comfort.

Why bring preplanning up now? Because we are in a lull of big events to discuss. How many posters are considering the state of the league 3 to 5 years down the line?

Now that we've had the NFL draft last night, we can start to get into the nitty-gritty of our Canadian draft and getting players to camp. It's getting exciting!

[JCon]

I'm tired of reading ChatGPT level of insight. I'm done. 

[BigBlue]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

I'm tired of reading ChatGPT level of insight. I'm done. 

never used it oh Brilliant one

[Sard]

1 hour ago, BigBlue said:

I totally agree with you. Those incremental increases were prearranged. The next major negotiation is still a couple of years away. What the financial situation of the  league is a big unknown right now. If we are still in these tight finances (and I am guessing that the missing the covid season has a lot to do with that) then it is just stay in financial survival mode.

However, if we are continuing to see TV fan ratings going up there could be a substantially larger amount of money available for the salary cap. It might even be a quantum leap. When such discoveries are made financial decisions in a compacted time frame are not always made with the greatest wisdom. 

Preplanning what to do with newfound money is not senseless. It often makes a great deal of difference; in order to negotiate well; you have to know what is truly important and what makes a big difference. Otherwise, the money just goes to the top end of the player pool, as the all-stars demand and the general managers compete. That is the opposite of planning.

So at the next player negotiations, if there is not a source of new money from increased viewership or attendance, then I agree that the best thing to focus on is player safety and procedural methods to ensure that safety. One item I have harked on in the past is quarterback protection. There are many other issues. There is also methodology to increase player security and comfort.

Why bring preplanning up now? Because we are in a lull of big events to discuss. How many posters are considering the state of the league 3 to 5 years down the line?

Now that we've had the NFL draft last night, we can start to get into the nitty-gritty of our Canadian draft and getting players to camp. It's getting exciting!

I still don't see where the teams are going to get and extra $250,000 to put towards the salary cap.  The fact that its gone up by $50,000 for many years and then $75,000 last year doesn't show any indication that all of a sudden there will be more than $250,000 available per year.  Add in the fact that the minimum salaries have been going up chews into what you say "goes to the top end of the player pool".  I just don't think the numbers that you think are available exist, nor will they in the foreseeable future.

For reference, minimum salaries:

2016 - $52K

2017 - $53K

2018 - $54K

2019 - $65K

2020 - $65K (cancelled season)

2021 - $65K (shortened season)

2022 - $65K

2023 - $70K

I don't think the narrative that all of the additional cap space goes to top end players is valid (and no, you're not the only person who's said it does).  A big chunk of it goes to minimum salary players and what's left is distributed through the team, but at the end of the day it's still only $75K, which is the equivalent of 1 entry level player.

[SpeedFlex27]

On 2024-04-24 at 2:11 PM, bb1 said:

I wonder why the CFL would suspend a guy who is aleady retired? I guess at least he is still kind of around to suspend i guess?? Better late than never? 😄

So he'll never get into the CFHOF. Lemon will be 65 & crying to get in & it won't help as no one will care. His choice to be stupid & ruin his chances. 

[SpeedFlex27]

On 2024-04-24 at 12:22 PM, BigBlue said:

"The Canadian Football League Players’ Association (CFLPA) has been accepted as an affiliate member by the Canadian Labour Congress, following a ratifying vote by the organization on Thursday. “The CFLPA has a proud and successful 59-year history of advocating for fair and safe working conditions…""

What do you feel the CFL PA should next go after to improve the game for both the players and the fans?

Personally, when there is an expansion of money available for the players, I would like to see it go for more Canadian positions on each and every CFL roster. I don't believe just adding a little more money for the top end of the roster will improve our game that much. I would rather see the money go to the low end of the roster. And I don't think sending money to the top-end will bring in more players from the xfl and the other peripheral leagues .

One idea is to add three Canadian minimum salary positions (for $240,000 or so per year per team). Having more trained Canadians may actually lower the cost of Canadians on the roster. Yes – no? More is less?

There is also another way to do this although we would have to be a little more innovative in our thinking. This would take eligible first and second year Canadian players and have them dress and play only home games. That would cut out the cost of travel. It would give them nine actual games in which they could dress. Often Canadian players are behind because they just haven't had a high enough level of training. This will give them that opportunity. And it would strengthen not only the team but all the league's player pool.

So for example, each team could dress six extra Canadians (or four) for each home game. It would only cost the league minimum salary for each of those nine home games. And if they did get on the regular-season roster it would still be for the same league minimum per game. Yes it would give the home team a little advantage; that would be good for attendance, to have the home team win a little more often. And of course the visiting team would gain the advantage at their next game.

Does this sound like a crazy thing to negotiate for, for six extra positions with limited playing time? Three extra salaries would cost what, $240,000 (6 X $80,00 X half a season) or so per year? Would adding an extra 56-60 players to the talent pool make the league stronger?

What should the CFL PA due to change their thinking to benefit all of the players and their association, not just their stars?

What idea have you been thinking about to improve our game?

 

Sometimes you just overthink. Like here with this. For example, why would teams dress extra Canadians just for home games? They'd never play so why even pay them??? We dress 45 players now so dressing more makes no sense.

Expansion money? For what new team, exactly? Where would you expand? Halifax? C'mon, if that city wanted a team there'd have beeen a team there with a proper stadium yeras ago. Quebec City or London, Ontario? Remains to be seen. poersonally, I doubt it.

And how much will an expansion team fetch? Five to ten million? What's that divided over 9 teams? That's $555,000 to $1.1 million per team. Hey, nice little one time windfall but it'll just be swallowed up in losses by 8 of the 9 teams now. If we're expanding to create extra money then that's laughable as it'll make little difference financially in the long run. You seem to have this penchant for trying to start these super serious discussions. Like we'll suddenly solve the league's problems at once. The CFL is what it is. Just enjoy it. 

Edited April 26 by SpeedFlex27

[Sard]

9 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Sometimes you just overthink. Like here with this. For example, why would teams dress extra Canadians just for home games? They'd never play so why even pay them??? We dress 45 players now so dressing more makes no sense.

Expansion money? For what new team, exactly? Where would you expand? Halifax? C'mon, if that city wanted a team there'd have beeen a team there with a proper stadium yeras ago. Quebec City or London, Ontario? Remains to be seen. poersonally, I doubt it.

And how much will an expansion team fetch? Five to ten million? What's that divided over 9 teams? That's $555,000 to $1.1 million per team. Hey, nice little one time windfall but it'll just be swallowed up in losses by 8 of the 9 teams now. If we're expanding to create extra money then that's laughable as it'll make little difference financially in the long run. You seem to have this penchant for trying to start these super serious discussions. Like we'll suddenly solve the league's problems at once. The CFL is what it is. Just enjoy it. 

Not to mention that if there is a 10th team, there are only so many talented Canadians to go around.  The talent pool will already be diluted by that, and then to try and add more positions for rookie Canadians, they'd really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and fill those spots.

[BigBlue]

"Where would you expand? Halifax? ... Quebec City or London, Ontario? Remains to be seen. poersonally, I doubt it."

I agree Halifax is a dead-end pursuit and a logistical nightmare in terms of travel. Very expensive too.

London would be cutting into the fan base, MAYBE, for the Tigercats and Argos. Of course, you never know what that community might be hungry for. I see no appeal. So no.

Québec city intrigues me though. It would instantly set up a rivalry with the Alouettes. The fan base there has proven themselves; there is a natural complement between football and hockey – – they have opposite seasons with very little overlap. I also think it would add some legitimacy to the league, filling in a void where the major French population  looks a little underserved, at least to me.

I also heard Ambroise speak of Québec City in positive terms in terms of marketing the CFL. So it looks like the CFL brass are thinking about it seriously. I hope it happens – – it would make everything better in terms of scheduling, league balance, and keeping travel costs down.

Expanding to Québec city makes a lot of sense to me.

Edited April 26 by BigBlue

[HardCoreBlue]

2 hours ago, BigBlue said:

'never used it oh Brilliant one' (CHATgpt, April 26th, 2024).

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Sometimes you just overthink. Like here with this. For example, why would teams dress extra Canadians just for home games? They'd never play so why even pay them??? We dress 45 players now so dressing more makes no sense.

Expansion money? For what new team, exactly? Where would you expand? Halifax? C'mon, if that city wanted a team there'd have beeen a team there with a proper stadium yeras ago. Quebec City or London, Ontario? Remains to be seen. poersonally, I doubt it.

And how much will an expansion team fetch? Five to ten million? What's that divided over 9 teams? That's $555,000 to $1.1 million per team. Hey, nice little one time windfall but it'll just be swallowed up in losses by 8 of the 9 teams now. If we're expanding to create extra money then that's laughable as it'll make little difference financially in the long run. You seem to have this penchant for trying to start these super serious discussions. Like we'll suddenly solve the league's problems at once. The CFL is what it is. Just enjoy it. 

Let’s be real too, they don’t have owners a stadium or a market for expansion. If any thing if the league tries to shoe horn  a team on the coast it’ll cost the league and every team. 

What was it, 3 teams over the cap this last year? Average of 100k with a dollar for dollar penalty? 200k right there. Teams just stopped handing the top fa wr 300k but started giving bananas money to ni ol. They could spend it ni doubt.

 Some teams didn’t spend the cap and some lost money either way. 250k isn’t making a big change. They could just use that money to bump up pr money and or spots. No team would be against that  

 

[SpeedFlex27]

48 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Let’s be real too, they don’t have owners a stadium or a market for expansion. If any thing if the league tries to shoe horn  a team on the coast it’ll cost the league and every team. 

What was it, 3 teams over the cap this last year? Average of 100k with a dollar for dollar penalty? 200k right there. Teams just stopped handing the top fa wr 300k but started giving bananas money to ni ol. They could spend it ni doubt.

 Some teams didn’t spend the cap and some lost money either way. 250k isn’t making a big change. They could just use that money to bump up pr money and or spots. No team would be against that  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When Big Blue started talking about giving players expansion money, I just shook my head. There is NO expansion money!! Maybe putting a team in Halifax might give the CFL a slightly bigger tv deal but I wouldn't be surprised if a 10th team made no difference. There's a chance that the next deal with TSN may not be worth as much. 

[SpeedFlex27]

Help me out here, the Seattle Kraken are going to streaming their games next season. First NHL team to do that. Why can't the CFL try to get on a sports streaming network like DAZN or Amazon?? I assume if they did, people all over the world could watch CFL games if they subscribe. Why can't they stream internationally while having games on TSN in Canada?  Just asking as I don't know how this works. If it's TSN who are the rightsholder, then **** them. maybe the CFL has to negotiate two tv deals. One for TSN & the other for international streaming. To me, that's where any future revenue growth would be.

Edited April 27 by SpeedFlex27

[wbbfan]

40 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Help me out here, the Seattle Kraken are going to streaming their games next season. First NHL team to do that. Why can't the CFL try to get on a sports streaming network like DAZN or Amazon?? I assume if they did, people all over the world could watch CFL games if they subscribe. Why can't they stream internationally while having games on TSN in Canada?  Just asking as I don't know how this works. If it's TSN who are the rightsholder, then **** them. maybe the CFL has to negotiate two tv deals. One for TSN & the other for international streaming. To me, that's where any future revenue growth would be.

Streaming on Amazon would be huge. 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Streaming on Amazon would be huge. 

So then, what's stopping the CFL from even trying? 

[JCon]

9 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

So then, what's stopping the CFL from even trying? 

They have deals in place already? You can stream CFL around the world. 

Edited April 28 by JCon

[Mark H.]

And, you can find streams for every CFL game on Reddit - decent quality too

[SpeedFlex27]

So, to Mark Hofer & JCon, dumb question, why isn't the CFL bringing in more revenues from streaming?

[Mark H.]

54 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

So, to Mark Hofer & JCon, dumb question, why isn't the CFL bringing in more revenues from streaming?

Because it's too easy to find streams that you don't have to pay for. 

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Because it's too easy to find streams that you don't have to pay for. 

Then why would the Kraken put their games on Amazon? same with the NHL for Monday Night Hockey?

[johnzo]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

So, to Mark Hofer & JCon, dumb question, why isn't the CFL bringing in more revenues from streaming?

Size of the audience?  The CFL is a tiny league playing in a small country -- the international audience for it can't be that big. 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, johnzo said:

Size of the audience?  The CFL is a tiny league playing in a small country -- the international audience for it can't be that big. 

I think in 10 to 15 years the CFL will be no more. There appears to be no growth possibilities. Especially with the Commissioner we have now. When it's 2024 & he biggest growth was the merger of the WIFU & IRFU to form the 9 team CFL in 1958 then things don't look great. Every other pro league have grown exponentially since. We may be the last generation of fans who care. 

Edited April 28 by SpeedFlex27

[Brandon]

7 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I think in 10 to 15 years the CFL will be no more. There appears to be no growth possibilities. Especially with the Commissioner we have now. When it's 2024 & he biggest growth was the merger of the WIFU & IRFU to form the 9 team CFL in 1958 then things don't look great. Every other pro league have grown exponentially since. We may be the last generation of fans who care. 

XFL....  XFL 2.0.... Arena Football League.....  USFL.....     

Or are we comparing the little old CFL with billion dollar leagues like MLB, NFL, NBA?

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

XFL....  XFL 2.0.... Arena Football League.....  USFL.....     

Or are we comparing the little old CFL with billion dollar leagues like MLB, NFL, NBA?

No, none of those. Just the CFL's way of thinking. Of just being the same league & doing the same thing. I'm no marketing expert, but there has to be a way to grow the league economically. 

[Brandon]

13 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No, none of those. Just the CFL's way of thinking. Of just being the same league & doing the same thing. I'm no marketing expert, but there has to be a way to grow the league economically. 

It's tough,   Football is more of an "old man" sport so with each year the audience of people who love the CFL purely for the game shrinks.   I think what Wade is doing is the absolute best tactic of trying to bring in young people and families for the gameday experience.  Over time maybe they can build some fans of the sport.  

When it comes to the tv/streaming audience it's really a tough challenge with the massive amounts of different entertainment options for the average person to select from.  The XFL showed that gimmicks is not enough to build a large audience.  You said that all the other leagues have grown exponentially ,  which isn't true as I showed in my list above.   The NBA/NFL/MLB/UFC have global appeal and billions of dollars backing them so they can tackle the untapped markets and make even more money.  How can the CFL compete with the NFL in doing the same?  Not going to happen and they won't be able to tap into the US market either.   

Long story ... it is what it is.  

[SpeedFlex27]

54 minutes ago, Brandon said:

It's tough,   Football is more of an "old man" sport so with each year the audience of people who love the CFL purely for the game shrinks.   I think what Wade is doing is the absolute best tactic of trying to bring in young people and families for the gameday experience.  Over time maybe they can build some fans of the sport.  

When it comes to the tv/streaming audience it's really a tough challenge with the massive amounts of different entertainment options for the average person to select from.  The XFL showed that gimmicks is not enough to build a large audience.  You said that all the other leagues have grown exponentially ,  which isn't true as I showed in my list above.   The NBA/NFL/MLB/UFC have global appeal and billions of dollars backing them so they can tackle the untapped markets and make even more money.  How can the CFL compete with the NFL in doing the same?  Not going to happen and they won't be able to tap into the US market either.   

Long story ... it is what it is.  

I guess I want to see the CFL at least try. Until the CFL is on a major streaming service & available to subscribers we'll never know how they'd do as it's a different brand of football. At least try. Come up with some ideas for growth strategies of some kind to grow the game instead of trying to put a team in the Maritimes where there's no interest. The league just stagnates every year, the same old, same old.