2024 Blue Bomber Training Camp

[wbbfan]

38 minutes ago, Noeller said:

You, Booch and JBR.... Of course each person has to do their own critical thinking... But you three know what you're talking about and it's appreciated by this doorknob, anyhow...

There’s a ton of really knowledgeable posters, unfortunately some don’t post much any more but like booch says we have a tremendous group on here. 
 

38 minutes ago, Booch said:

most the issues here is because I dont think Osh walks on water and will call out things...every coach I have ever played for..worked with, or known had faults...were far from perfect and most died on the hill due to them eventually...it happens to them all....some people tho can't accept that and see it only as an attack or knowing better...I never once said Osh should be gone, but he does have things that could be addressed....if people take it as I think I knoiw better, or am always right thats their choice, and their right....But I will talk from experience....from still being connected to the game with current and former players/regimes...and people can take it how they want....If i get abrasive and aggressive...well it's to be expected as thats how I played nd was coached...and was brought along not to settle....stand pat...and you had to earn your keep daily...nothing is given

There's way more that have a great knowledge here....I'd say the best group in the CFL...you would also be surprised who some are...and there is a group that work on the mob mentality here too...which is also fine....and I dont disparage a true hard core fan who defends their squad...unless they start talking out the bumhole...

100%. Mos is open about his limitations and what he does. He believes the culture over comes talent. I believe even he realizes this year we’ve past the tipping point. 
 In the nba last year the raptors ran back a team full of vets with limited upside. They did it based on loyalty. fans and people around the league knew the raptors were past it. But Masai knew those guys since they were kids. He picked and groomed them. He thought they had chance and deserved to play it out. There isn’t a better basketball guy in the nba. 
 Some times being too close to the situation blinds great minds. Or brings them to act against a teams best interest. 
 

We’ve been making decisions like that. With mos we have to walk the line between being competitive/developing guys and being loyal to old guys. That, is the single more relevant discussion point around the bombers. 

5 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Well, this is just a terrible post. 

He's infallible now? No critical analysis allowed?

People forget that mos was on the hot seat Here with a sub .500 record. If we didn’t fluke out with collaros we have no ships, and a different hc. 
 Mos deserves tons of credit and is the goat of bomber coaches. No one is beyond questioning though especially in sports. Zach is the bomber qb goat imo, and he has been real questionable in the play offs. 

[Booch]

5 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Well, this is just a terrible post. 

He's infallible now? No critical analysis allowed?

some people dont understand professional sports is a "what have you done for me now" business....not what have u done in the past

We lost the last 2 cups...cups we should have won...and any coach worth anything will tell you thats a failure at the end of the season....and a few simple tweaks..changes...or changes in philosphy and we are prepping to win our 5th straight...deny it...argue it....agree with it....fact of the matter, more than anything our coaching failed us in the last 2 playoff runs....I could care less if we are a 15-3 grey cup champ...or an 8-10 Grey Cup champ...regular season wins and accolades mean diddly if you not slapping on a ring at the end of the day

Edited May 21 by Booch

[Mike]

26 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

“Coach O’Shea, you turned around a club that had missed the playoffs in 5 of the previous 6 years and was an all-time worst 3-15 before your arrival. You’ve had 7 straight 10+win seasons in a row, an all-time club record, and 7 straight playoff appearances, and you’ve been coach of the year more than any other coach since you started 9 years ago. In that time your roster has featured 15 CFL award winners and 43 CFL all-stars, which is tops in the league. No team has won more in the last 7 years, and other than the Stanps, no team has won more since you started your head coaching gig. You coached the team to back-to-back Grey Cup victories. You’re the 4 time defending Western Division champions, something this league hasn’t seen in over 40 years. No other team has more playoff wins, Grey Cup appearances or Championships during your tenure. You are on track this season to become the all-time winningest coach in the club’s 93 year history.

It’s obvious that you are failing at putting out the most optimum roster to smugly satisfy a personal Canada-first agenda that is failing us competitively. Explain yourself! Asking on behalf of fans who know better”

Asking on behalf of fans who hope that good isn’t good enough 

[Mark H.]

23 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

There’s a ton of really knowledgeable posters, unfortunately some don’t post much any more but like booch says we have a tremendous group on here. 

I agree. I appreciate people who know more about a subject than I do, but I've learned to never put anyone on a pedestal, we're all human at the end of the day.

We have to put up with each others' faults, limitations and rough edges - they aren't going away - people are who they are.

The one thing that I have a problem with - is when people pretend to be something they aren't - or claim to have knowledge or understanding that they don't really have. 

[wbbfan]

8 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

I agree. I appreciate people who know more about a subject than I do, but I've learned to never put anyone on a pedestal, we're all human at the end of the day.

We have to put up with each others' faults, limitations and rough edges - they aren't going away - people are who they are.

The one thing that I have a problem with - is when people pretend to be something they aren't - or claim to have knowledge or understanding that they don't really have. 

100%. 

[rebusrankin]

MOS has been a great coach but he's not infallible. 

Walters has been a great GM but he's also not infallible.

Heck both risked potentially losing their jobs if we don't win in 2019. 

[Noeller]

I have always said there's a happy medium... Osh isn't as bad as some say and he's also not infallible. I love playing as many Canadians as possible but I also like winning and believe there's merit to allowing Americans to stay with a team for a length of time and be considered National for roster purposes. There's a happy medium somewhere.

[Goalie]

Blaming the cup losses on O’Shea is kinda stupid tho. He’s not the one out there playing. 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Blaming the cup losses on O’Shea is kinda stupid tho. He’s not the one out there playing. 

There’s a massive difference between saying it’s his fault and saying he didn’t put us in the best position to succeed.

So many people here want to deal in absolutes, but the reality is it’s a mix of everything. Our roster didn’t show up and make it count, but I’ll hold strong and say we didn’t put our guys in the best position to succeed either.

[wbbfan]

6 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Blaming the cup losses on O’Shea is kinda stupid tho. He’s not the one out there playing. 

In that case you can’t give him much credit for winning though. The team was flat in the last two gcs and guys played who shouldn’t have. He’s not top of the list but he’s on it. 

[Noeller]

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

There’s a massive difference between saying it’s his fault and saying he didn’t put us in the best position to succeed.

So many people here want to deal in absolutes, but the reality is it’s a mix of everything. Our roster didn’t show up and make it count, but I’ll hold strong and say we didn’t put our guys in the best position to succeed either.

💯💯

[TrueBlue4ever]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

There’s a massive difference between saying it’s his fault and saying he didn’t put us in the best position to succeed.

So many people here want to deal in absolutes, but the reality is it’s a mix of everything. Our roster didn’t show up and make it count, but I’ll hold strong and say we didn’t put our guys in the best position to succeed either.

Thank you. This is an argument I can accept. I have never said O’Shea is infallible, so making that assumption about my post is inaccurate and unfair. But I have found more than a bit of the criticism of him to lack perspective and be so inflammatory as to border on the absurd. His roster has been called garbage, putrid, a joke, and other over the top things. And it has been even stated that O’Shea should be shown the door by the club if he can’t smarten up and be better. And when you suggest that he has given away our competitive advantage, a quick check of the team’s results shows just how competitive we have in fact been, as to underlie the lack of perspective on the big picture, that he and the players have put themselves in position to win 4 straight Grey Cups because of the strength of the roster some claim is so flawed. Just as you say he did not set the team up in the best way to succeed, I could say that some players did not perform like they should have in spite of the coaching, critical mental and physical errors cost us as much as if not more than coaching or roster strategy did, and just plain luck played a big hand in determining the outcome. Neither of us is 100% right or wrong with our assessment.

Where the “bad roster” argument gets out of hand for me is where it is suggested it is all part of an O’Shea agenda to deliberately undermine the team (and his own job) with a weaker roster (which is only based on opinions by certain posters who claim without hard evidence that player X who we haven’t seen play is clearly better than player B who has been on the roster) in an effort to get on a soapbox and proclaim, what exactly? And that he needs to be called out and explain himself to justify his decisions, and the media are cowards with no balls for not doing so. Well forgive me for saying I don’t think he really needs to say too much to defend himself on this issue, since his job is to win games and field the most competitive team he can, whether someone likes the way in which he does it or not. And by that measure alone he is about as unassailable as any coach we have ever had here, on par with Grant and maybe ahead of Murphy in terms of winning and success. I would love a good measured debate on it, but just like some deal in absolutes, some deal on hyperbole and unrealistic expectations. People say we are good but not good enough, I would say that we are much better than merely “good”, that those people think that anything short of absolute perfection is mediocre, and wrongly feel he deserves to be called to the carpet for not achieving an essentially impossible standard. Just the way I see it. 

Edited May 21 by TrueBlue4ever

[Booch]

there's a difference between delibirately doing something and seeing it..and stubbornly doing someting......and not seeing it....and he falls in there somewhere....Nobody said he needs to be shown the door...I have said I dont want him to be fired but he needs to chamge and evolve....Make sense too that if one side of the fence say's you cant put bulk blame on him for the losses......as he didn't play the game, then you can't put bulk of accolades on him for the wins either....it is only a fair assesment, and makes good sense.

 

That being said, I along with @Mike and others will stand on the hill that Osh has final say on roster and game decisions and he did not put best roster out in last 2 cups to allow us to win, and made some poor decisions....but it's old news...past history and not gonna change.....but he can....and will he?...If we roll along 14-4 this year...get to the Cup and then blow it again with a less than best roster....some odd decisons...playing guys less than acceptable due to injury...it has definately become a concern and he has not learned from history

[17to85]

The great irony is the people who get slammed for talking about MOS' faults have all said there's no coach they'd rather have... people just don't like hearing about a legend like that's issues, but roster management has been a thing with oshea since day 1. 

[GCn20]

48 minutes ago, Booch said:

there's a difference between delibirately doing something and seeing it..and stubbornly doing someting......and not seeing it....and he falls in there somewhere....Nobody said he needs to be shown the door...I have said I dont want him to be fired but he needs to chamge and evolve....Make sense too that if one side of the fence say's you cant put bulk blame on him for the losses......as he didn't play the game, then you can't put bulk of accolades on him for the wins either....it is only a fair assesment, and makes good sense.

 

That being said, I along with @Mike and others will stand on the hill that Osh has final say on roster and game decisions and he did not put best roster out in last 2 cups to allow us to win, and made some poor decisions....but it's old news...past history and not gonna change.....but he can....and will he?...If we roll along 14-4 this year...get to the Cup and then blow it again with a less than best roster....some odd decisons...playing guys less than acceptable due to injury...it has definately become a concern and he has not learned from history

MOS is as responsible for our Grey Cup losses as any of the players. None performed to expectations in the last 2 Grey Cups. Coaches and players made mistakes that prevented the wins. The group, as a collective, let us down.

5 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The great irony is the people who get slammed for talking about MOS' faults have all said there's no coach they'd rather have... people just don't like hearing about a legend like that's issues, but roster management has been a thing with oshea since day 1. 

Yes, Kuale revealed that early on.

[JohnnyAbonny]

13 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

“Coach O’Shea, you turned around a club that had missed the playoffs in 5 of the previous 6 years and was an all-time worst 3-15 before your arrival. You’ve had 7 straight 10+win seasons in a row, an all-time club record, and 7 straight playoff appearances, and you’ve been coach of the year more than any other coach since you started 9 years ago. In that time your roster has featured 15 CFL award winners and 43 CFL all-stars, which is tops in the league. No team has won more in the last 7 years, and other than the Stanps, no team has won more since you started your head coaching gig. You coached the team to back-to-back Grey Cup victories. You’re the 4 time defending Western Division champions, something this league hasn’t seen in over 40 years. No other team has more playoff wins, Grey Cup appearances or Championships during your tenure. You are on track this season to become the all-time winningest coach in the club’s 93 year history.

It’s obvious that you are failing at putting out the most optimum roster to smugly satisfy a personal Canada-first agenda that is failing us competitively. Explain yourself! Asking on behalf of fans who know better”

Your post is very black and white thinking.
 

How about “You’ve put together one of the all time great runs in club history. Some fans have a point that it could be even better, given the team has in fact declined to use competitive advantages that were available.” 

 

[WBBFanWest]

21 hours ago, Colin Unger said:

Its interesting how many rookies didn't make the trip. I wonder what that means for them. 

I'm not sure that being told that you're not going to Regina is a bad thing.

[JohnnyAbonny]

The nationalized American rule is the one that sticks with me. Zero excuse not to use it. There’s only benefits. 

I have to add the caveat every single time that I love MOS, so nobody thinks I’m insulting the guy personally. 

The roster management has in fact been an issue since 2014. Kuale, Hurl, Carmichael, Sticking with Willy until almost being fired, Kelvin McKnight, Chris Matthews when he was crippled and couldn’t do anything. Tavarres whatever that was on the roster for 2 years and didn’t see a meaningful snap. Jake Thomas last year. That’s just off the top of my head. 

[Mike]

7 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Thank you. This is an argument I can accept. I have never said O’Shea is infallible, so making that assumption about my post is inaccurate and unfair. But I have found more than a bit of the criticism of him to lack perspective and be so inflammatory as to border on the absurd. His roster has been called garbage, putrid, a joke, and other over the top things. And it has been even stated that O’Shea should be shown the door by the club if he can’t smarten up and be better. And when you suggest that he has given away our competitive advantage, a quick check of the team’s results shows just how competitive we have in fact been, as to underlie the lack of perspective on the big picture, that he and the players have put themselves in position to win 4 straight Grey Cups because of the strength of the roster some claim is so flawed. Just as you say he did not set the team up in the best way to succeed, I could say that some players did not perform like they should have in spite of the coaching, critical mental and physical errors cost us as much as if not more than coaching or roster strategy did, and just plain luck played a big hand in determining the outcome. Neither of us is 100% right or wrong with our assessment.

Where the “bad roster” argument gets out of hand for me is where it is suggested it is all part of an O’Shea agenda to deliberately undermine the team (and his own job) with a weaker roster (which is only based on opinions by certain posters who claim without hard evidence that player X who we haven’t seen play is clearly better than player B who has been on the roster) in an effort to get on a soapbox and proclaim, what exactly? And that he needs to be called out and explain himself to justify his decisions, and the media are cowards with no balls for not doing so. Well forgive me for saying I don’t think he really needs to say too much to defend himself on this issue, since his job is to win games and field the most competitive team he can, whether someone likes the way in which he does it or not. And by that measure alone he is about as unassailable as any coach we have ever had here, on par with Grant and maybe ahead of Murphy in terms of winning and success. I would love a good measured debate on it, but just like some deal in absolutes, some deal on hyperbole and unrealistic expectations. People say we are good but not good enough, I would say that we are much better than merely “good”, that those people think that anything short of absolute perfection is mediocre, and wrongly feel he deserves to be called to the carpet for not achieving an essentially impossible standard. Just the way I see it. 

I’ll be the first to admit I’ve said multiple times that if he doesn’t want to use the resources he has available to him, maybe the team needs to explore coaching options. I’ve explained it this way several times but I’ll say it again - if there was another coach on another team just blatantly ignoring use of an advantage that could be deployed on our roster (the naturalized Canadian), we’d all be here laughing at how ridiculous it is. “Why wouldn’t you?” is the common question, there’s literally no downside to it. But because it’s MOS, people give him a pass for it. If he’s that stubborn, where else is he allowing that stubbornness to affect decision making? Nowhere? Okay great. Except we know that’s not the case either.

 

THAT is why if the results start disappearing, I’m not sure if I’d be in a hurry to let him try and put the pieces back together.

 

Also, the way you’re phrasing things is purposely staged to imply that there’s no validity behind the criticisms. That’s also interesting to me. It’s not as if the criticism is “hey, Brady is the best player in the entire league but he’s Canadian … couldn’t we do better with an American?” and we’re just inherently biased. The criticism is pretty warranted if we’re saying “hey, we play way more Canadians than we’re really required to … are Shayne Gauthier and Jake Thomas really the best we can do for significant meaningful reps?”

 

These are low draft capital players on the backend of their careers as run-of-the-mill foot soldiers who have never even bordered on the level of impactful. Our scouting department is great. They can’t produce better than that? It’s a pretty valid question. If you need more evidence, look at the speed those guys we had in yesterday played with. Jamal Woods was probably the worst American interior lineman I saw take a snap for us yesterday and he still played faster than I’ve seen Jake Thomas play in years. Is it all technique? Understanding of the game that makes Jake efficient? Okay great. You’re the coach. Coach the athlete up to be as smart as Jake. He wasn’t that smart when he got here.

 

You defend MOS from these criticisms because of his success. His success turning these guys into players is even more evidence that he should (in theory) be able to turn the far more athletic, far more naturally talented guys into even more so that he can have even more success. We go on and on and on about team culture and how important it is, but at what point do we start wondering if it’s become too much about culture? We haven’t won a Grey Cup in our last two tries, our culture folded when it mattered the most so maybe it’s time for talent to play a part too.

[GCn20]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

I’ll be the first to admit I’ve said multiple times that if he doesn’t want to use the resources he has available to him, maybe the team needs to explore coaching options. I’ve explained it this way several times but I’ll say it again - if there was another coach on another team just blatantly ignoring use of an advantage that could be deployed on our roster (the naturalized Canadian), we’d all be here laughing at how ridiculous it is. “Why wouldn’t you?” is the common question, there’s literally no downside to it. But because it’s MOS, people give him a pass for it. If he’s that stubborn, where else is he allowing that stubbornness to affect decision making? Nowhere? Okay great. Except we know that’s not the case either.

 

THAT is why if the results start disappearing, I’m not sure if I’d be in a hurry to let him try and put the pieces back together.

 

Also, the way you’re phrasing things is purposely staged to imply that there’s no validity behind the criticisms. That’s also interesting to me. It’s not as if the criticism is “hey, Brady is the best player in the entire league but he’s Canadian … couldn’t we do better with an American?” and we’re just inherently biased. The criticism is pretty warranted if we’re saying “hey, we play way more Canadians than we’re really required to … are Shayne Gauthier and Jake Thomas really the best we can do for significant meaningful reps?”

 

These are low draft capital players on the backend of their careers as run-of-the-mill foot soldiers who have never even bordered on the level of impactful. Our scouting department is great. They can’t produce better than that? It’s a pretty valid question. If you need more evidence, look at the speed those guys we had in yesterday played with. Jamal Woods was probably the worst American interior lineman I saw take a snap for us yesterday and he still played faster than I’ve seen Jake Thomas play in years. Is it all technique? Understanding of the game that makes Jake efficient? Okay great. You’re the coach. Coach the athlete up to be as smart as Jake. He wasn’t that smart when he got here.

 

You defend MOS from these criticisms because of his success. His success turning these guys into players is even more evidence that he should (in theory) be able to turn the far more athletic, far more naturally talented guys into even more so that he can have even more success. We go on and on and on about team culture and how important it is, but at what point do we start wondering if it’s become too much about culture? We haven’t won a Grey Cup in our last two tries, our culture folded when it mattered the most so maybe it’s time for talent to play a part too.

You guys both have very polarizing takes imo. I would not want any other coach and am fully aware he has faults. So does every coach. The good outweighs the bad with MOS. What he is able to do as a coach overall is still very good work. It is annoying to see his stubborness on roster management play out year after year though. This is a problem he has had since day one, and isn't likely to change, but I hope it does.

[WBBFanWest]

For me, I've scratched my head a few times over roster decisions that Coach O'Shea has made, but I've always remembered that there are things that I don't know/understand, so who am I to criticize?  But this last Grey Cup, he allowed injured players, who had no business being out there, to not only dress, but to start.   He allowed this to happen and there was no good reason for it.  I'm assuming that over the off season, someone in the organization has had a talk with him about his loyalty to his players and how sometimes you have to put winning ahead of loyalty.  He's a great coach, but like all of us, has a blind spot or two that he needs to get coached up on.

[GCn20]

22 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

For me, I've scratched my head a few times over roster decisions that Coach O'Shea has made, but I've always remembered that there are things that I don't know/understand, so who am I to criticize?  But this last Grey Cup, he allowed injured players, who had no business being out there, to not only dress, but to start.   He allowed this to happen and there was no good reason for it.  I'm assuming that over the off season, someone in the organization has had a talk with him about his loyalty to his players and how sometimes you have to put winning ahead of loyalty.  He's a great coach, but like all of us, has a blind spot or two that he needs to get coached up on.

I don't think too many people will/should tell MOS how to coach. There is far more things to consider when choosing a lineup than who the best player is at X position. That is only part of the equation, and unless you've coached you will never understand that. MOS either went with his gut, or trusted some guys too much, or even went with some vets that were borderline and hoped they could play through the pain based on what he knew about them. He may also have gotten some bad info from his trainers regarding these players. None of us know the reasons for these guys playing, we can speculate, but that's all it amounts to really. At the end of the day, MOS has to not only balance his roster, he has to balance his culture and locker room and sometimes that means making choices that seem odd to those that don't have all the info.

Edited May 21 by GCn20

[Mike]

51 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I don't think too many people will/should tell MOS how to coach. There is far more things to consider when choosing a lineup than who the best player is at X position. That is only part of the equation, and unless you've coached you will never understand that. MOS either went with his gut, or trusted some guys too much, or even went with some vets that were borderline and hoped they could play through the pain based on what he knew about them. He may also have gotten some bad info from his trainers regarding these players. None of us know the reasons for these guys playing, we can speculate, but that's all it amounts to really. At the end of the day, MOS has to not only balance his roster, he has to balance his culture and locker room and sometimes that means making choices that seem odd to those that don't have all the info.

I don’t think that’s a fair take because it’s so much deeper than just one game. We didn’t even prepare a contingency plan last year for any of this stuff. He went all the way in on the vets and left everyone else behind. It bit us in the ass and whether we want to acknowledge it or not, he *has* to wear that.
 

It’s not an I told ya so, but @Booch and I were literally saying “gee I hope this doesn’t bite us in the ass at a bad time” as early as the first week of camp last season and it bit us at the absolute worst time. The whole season had major reunion tour last show ever vibes.

[Booch]

1 hour ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

Your post is very black and white thinking.
 

How about “You’ve put together one of the all time great runs in club history. Some fans have a point that it could be even better, given the team has in fact declined to use competitive advantages that were available.” 

 

also....More credit needs to be levelled at Walters and his scouts for bringing in the guys for Osh to use...and at times not be using....and thats where I also critical of him not being more the "Boss" as opposed to buddy and calling coach out on some his poor decisions....

And yeah....as mentioned above...I dont wanna say the I told ya so as well....but have basically been saying it 2 yrs running now....I know some here like to go back and cherry pick things I said and bring them back to bolster a claim against what I said....or show some form of negativity...well go back and look for what @Mike just mentioned....specifically said we will feel this poor decions at the absolute worst time....and it's happened 2 yrs in a row now...Also said last year weeks after Garbutt arrived that there no reason he should not be playing...had the best first step of anyone and most explosiveness....go back and look....and who popped off the page last night showing exactly that?...yet we dressed Jackson...relied on Bennet....etc...etc.....why?....It's because at times our coach plays fav's and likes to reward guys at the sacrifice of a best roster....even if they just stand on the sidelines all game and dont even put a helmet on

we got hit hard last yr at a critical time with injuries...and we had absolutely nothing to cover our butts.....cause we had role/teams players who our coach claims are all number ones....complete crap....you don't need to butter a pro's buns to make him happy if he not playing a big part...and if you do...then find some new pro's

[GCn20]

51 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don’t think that’s a fair take because it’s so much deeper than just one game. We didn’t even prepare a contingency plan last year for any of this stuff. He went all the way in on the vets and left everyone else behind. It bit us in the ass and whether we want to acknowledge it or not, he *has* to wear that.
 

It’s not an I told ya so, but @Booch and I were literally saying “gee I hope this doesn’t bite us in the ass at a bad time” as early as the first week of camp last season and it bit us at the absolute worst time. The whole season had major reunion tour last show ever vibes.

I agree with your assessment in general and I was disappointed in hindsight as well. I would like to see MOS manage the roster better as well. You are right he has to wear that, I am simply pointing out that some of these decisions can be very hard to make and a coin flip as to whether they turn out well or not. They are not as black and white in decision making as they appear to us, the fans. You make a valid point on having contigencies on these tough decisions tho.

Edited May 21 by GCn20