2024 Blue Bomber Training Camp

[Jesse]

52 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don’t think that’s a fair take because it’s so much deeper than just one game. We didn’t even prepare a contingency plan last year for any of this stuff. He went all the way in on the vets and left everyone else behind. It bit us in the ass and whether we want to acknowledge it or not, he *has* to wear that.
 

It’s not an I told ya so, but @Booch and I were literally saying “gee I hope this doesn’t bite us in the ass at a bad time” as early as the first week of camp last season and it bit us at the absolute worst time. The whole season had major reunion tour last show ever vibes.

MOS has to wear those mistakes you discuss. 100%. PR usage, designated Americans, The F'ing FB usage, letting players dictate too much.

The things I give him the benefit of the doubt on are some roster decisions around new players coming in. A lot is discussed about MOS's loyalty to guys, but we also have examples of rookies coming in and playing right away. When we have players that look good in limited action and they can't seem to stay on the field, everyone gets all on MOS for staying loyal to whatever vet is in the guts way, but no one asks what the player is or is not doing to get on the field. There is so much we don't see. When are they getting to practice, are the putting in the work off the field, in the meeting rooms, are they where they are supposed to be on the field on the plays we don't see?

We know the formula for becoming one of the favourites. Steal snaps, be a hard worker, get in early, stay late, be a good teammate, know your role, etc, etc, etc. The one thing we can all agree on is the culture reset that has happened under the current regime. MOS is loyal to the guys who are good examples and set that culture. 

When a guy can't get on the field, we have to put some of the onus on the player too. Not just blame MOS for keeping a guy down. 

[Booch]

2 minutes ago, Jesse said:

MOS has to wear those mistakes you discuss. 100%. PR usage, designated Americans, The F'ing FB usage, letting players dictate too much.

The things I give him the benefit of the doubt on are some roster decisions around new players coming in. A lot is discussed about MOS's loyalty to guys, but we also have examples of rookies coming in and playing right away. When we have players that look good in limited action and they can't seem to stay on the field, everyone gets all on MOS for staying loyal to whatever vet is in the guts way, but no one asks what the player is or is not doing to get on the field. There is so much we don't see. When are they getting to practice, are the putting in the work off the field, in the meeting rooms, are they where they are supposed to be on the field on the plays we don't see?

We know the formula for becoming one of the favourites. Steal snaps, be a hard worker, get in early, stay late, be a good teammate, know your role, etc, etc, etc. The one thing we can all agree on is the culture reset that has happened under the current regime. MOS is loyal to the guys who are good examples and set that culture. 

When a guy can't get on the field, we have to put some of the onus on the player too. Not just blame MOS for keeping a guy down. 

valid points...if applicable/true....but I not buying that...if guys aren't putting in the work in all facets...then they should be gone....and why they here...that can point directly back at the coach actually....and with culture.....it's good to a point until culture impedes talent....and when that creeps in...and the complacency having too much comfort knowing you are saying and doing all the right things and you are secure in your spot....it tends to stagnate things.

Same with his quotes of "he practiced real hard" we like that so we put him in....well who's not...and if they not...why waste a roster spot on them?....

I made it a point laat year to go to practice for about 3 straight weeks....to see what was going on...talk to some people...get a feel....and there were guys significantly better...putting in the work....even after team ran mandatory drills...and they had no hope in hell of being used, as they were either 1) less than a yr here 2) not a favorite of a particular natuonality 3) not a teachers pet 4) victim of stubborn bias'

Many people have commented on many a coach before of American decent and training favoring Americans and not putting enough of the same dedication/appreciation into their Canadian players...well we have the oposite here of that....and examples of it are clear and easy to see with not utilizing the certain rules that would be beneficial...starting extra Canadians for no other reason other than they are Canadian and Osh is we all know a proud Canadian...so thats his soap box to show it...I would be more intune with it if we in turn rostered guys who we could freely rotate in (Imports) and take advantage of that....but we don't even do that....so again....theres no point to it, and it hamstrings your roster and depth, as it doesn't allow you to have guys get in games, and get reps behind thier merican starters, so when in times of injury you actually have a player in the wings...aka a contingency plan for a rash of injuries....and we have been boned soooo bad the last few yrs due to that you would think a light bulb would switch on...This yr will be interesting to see what plays out.

Do I know it all...better than anyone...no....have I been coached and coached with really good coaches....and in camps in the CFL...NCAA and NFL....yes....so have seen many a way to run/coach/manage a team and for all the good I see here and love....there are several things that would have made us a team talked about for generations....

 

[Jesse]

9 minutes ago, Booch said:

made it a point laat year to go to practice for about 3 straight weeks....to see what was going on...talk to some people...get a feel....and there were guys significantly better...putting in the work....even after team ran mandatory drills...and they had no hope in hell of being used, as they were either 1) less than a yr here 2) not a favorite of a particular natuonality 3) not a teachers pet 4) victim of stubborn bias'

 

 

Now the problem with this line of thinking is guys like Alexander, Holm, Lawler, Nichols, Parker, Schoen, Streveler... who all came in and earned significant roles from Day 1. 

Obviously the process isn't and can't be perfect. But it's not like we have zero examples of it. Even with a veteran heavy team, there are examples every year of Americans coming in and earning spots. 

[Booch]

5 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Now the problem with this line of thinking is guys like Alexander, Holm, Lawler, Nichols, Parker, Schoen, Streveler... who all came in and earned significant roles from Day 1. 

Obviously the process isn't and can't be perfect. But it's not like we have zero examples of it. Even with a veteran heavy team, there are examples every year of Americans coming in and earning spots. 

Nichols was an obvious no brainer...and we had no HB coming back.......Holm was a second yr guy last yr.....Parker got stone walled and buried for well over  month when he could have played...seen it first hand and asked him....Streveler....had to start as we had nobody....and sadly if Nichols hadnt got hurt...And Durant showed up....we would prob not even have a Strev story....Lawler as well....came in mid season off the PR...he earned it...wasnt a gift, and really?...the best WR in the league?...if the staff would have continued to park him they all should have been fired. 

Schoen was in an open tryout for 1 spot and won....we needed a guy and had no incumbant...so that also is a moot point.

 

Edited May 21 by Booch

[Jesse]

2 minutes ago, Booch said:

Nichols was an obvious no brainer...and we had no HB coming back.......Holm was a second yr guy last yr.....Parker got stone walled and buried for well over  month when he could have played...seen it first hand and asked him....Streveler....had to start as we had nobody....and sadly if Nichols hadnt got hurt...And Durant showed up....we would prob not even have a Strev story....Lawler as well....came in mid season off the PR...he earned it...wasnt a gift, and really?...the best WR in the league?...if the staff would have continued to park him they all should have been fired. 

Schoen was in an open tryout for 1 spot and won....we needed a guy and had no incumbant...so that also is a moot point.

 

I'm honestly not sure the point you're trying to make here, Booch.

There's always a path to where a guy gets his opportunity. You explaining each guy's history doesn't make it a moot point. These are examples of Americans earning roster spots. This year, we'll see even more. I'm just pointing out that there' more that goes into it than the couple splash plays we see in games. 

[MOBomberFan]

Casey Sayles came into a starting role pretty early on, and would probably still be starting here now

2 minutes ago, Booch said:

sadly if Nichols hadnt got hurt...And Durant showed up....we would prob not even have a Strev story....

The best 70k the Bombers ever burned! Thank you again for being a snake, Darian

[greenrider55]

11 minutes ago, Booch said:

Nichols was an obvious no brainer...and we had no HB coming back.......Holm was a second yr guy last yr.....Parker got stone walled and buried for well over  month when he could have played...seen it first hand and asked him....Streveler....had to start as we had nobody....and sadly if Nichols hadnt got hurt...And Durant showed up....we would prob not even have a Strev story....Lawler as well....came in mid season off the PR...he earned it...wasnt a gift, and really?...the best WR in the league?...if the staff would have continued to park him they all should have been fired. 

Schoen was in an open tryout for 1 spot and won....we needed a guy and had no incumbant...so that also is a moot point.

 

Iirc, Schoen kind of replaced Darvin Adams didn’t he?

[bigg jay]

5 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Casey Sayles came into a starting role pretty early on, and would probably still be starting here now

He did start a few games in 2021 but only due to Stove getting hurt.  When Stove was healthy, Sayles was the back-up.

[Atomic]

I know what happens to teams in this league who don't prioritize their Canadian talent, they end up in the toilet for years at a time. MOS definitely goes overboard in that regard but if that's his biggest flaw then I will gladly accept it. Yes it almost certainly cost us in the big game but would we have been in the big game 4 years in a row without the culture MOS has built here? Without a rock solid base of Canadians? Without being the number one destination for veteran free agents? I doubt it. Believe me, the players see how O'Shea treats his veterans and that's a selling point for Winnipeg.

That being said.... The point of talking about sports is often to give your opinion on what your favourite team could be doing better. Nothing wrong with that. The roster could always be one percent better, the team could always win one more game.

As far as firing O'Shea for his flaws? That's a tougher sell for me - he's got a lifetime membership as Blue Bomber coach as far as I'm concerned. We're lucky to have him. Flaws and all.

[Booch]

43 minutes ago, Jesse said:

I'm honestly not sure the point you're trying to make here, Booch.

There's always a path to where a guy gets his opportunity. You explaining each guy's history doesn't make it a moot point. These are examples of Americans earning roster spots. This year, we'll see even more. I'm just pointing out that there' more that goes into it than the couple splash plays we see in games. 

that guys have not been given a job right out of the gate from day one from impressive play like you were hinting at...Unless I misread what you were saying...the couple that did qere due to circumstance and somebody new had to fill the role, and the factNichols was just  amazing and why would you not start him from day one

 

37 minutes ago, greenrider55 said:

Iirc, Schoen kind of replaced Darvin Adams didn’t he?

we didnt bring him back

21 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I know what happens to teams in this league who don't prioritize their Canadian talent, they end up in the toilet for years at a time. MOS definitely goes overboard in that regard but if that's his biggest flaw then I will gladly accept it. Yes it almost certainly cost us in the big game but would we have been in the big game 4 years in a row without the culture MOS has built here? Without a rock solid base of Canadians? Without being the number one destination for veteran free agents? I doubt it. Believe me, the players see how O'Shea treats his veterans and that's a selling point for Winnipeg.

That being said.... The point of talking about sports is often to give your opinion on what your favourite team could be doing better. Nothing wrong with that. The roster could always be one percent better, the team could always win one more game.

As far as firing O'Shea for his flaws? That's a tougher sell for me - he's got a lifetime membership as Blue Bomber coach as far as I'm concerned. We're lucky to have him. Flaws and all.

eventually all coaches get canned due toi them, and teams not responding to them...Dave Ritchie was best coach all around I have seen and had pleasure to be around...and eventually he too got canned from a particular flaw...tho the last time in Winnipeg that flaw wasn't entirely necessary at the time...but may have been headed that way....when it's time...it's time

Edited May 21 by Booch

[WinnipegGordo]

 

[CrazyCanuck89]

48 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I know what happens to teams in this league who don't prioritize their Canadian talent, they end up in the toilet for years at a time. MOS definitely goes overboard in that regard but if that's his biggest flaw then I will gladly accept it. Yes it almost certainly cost us in the big game but would we have been in the big game 4 years in a row without the culture MOS has built here? Without a rock solid base of Canadians? Without being the number one destination for veteran free agents? I doubt it. Believe me, the players see how O'Shea treats his veterans and that's a selling point for Winnipeg.

That being said.... The point of talking about sports is often to give your opinion on what your favourite team could be doing better. Nothing wrong with that. The roster could always be one percent better, the team could always win one more game.

As far as firing O'Shea for his flaws? That's a tougher sell for me - he's got a lifetime membership as Blue Bomber coach as far as I'm concerned. We're lucky to have him. Flaws and all.

He hasn't gone overboard at all.  This is the Canadian Football League.  It's a minimum of seven starters not a maximum.  Guys like Kelly will be next man up, because of their versatility.

[CrazyCanuck89]

4 hours ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

The nationalized American rule is the one that sticks with me. Zero excuse not to use it. There’s only benefits. 

I have to add the caveat every single time that I love MOS, so nobody thinks I’m insulting the guy personally. 

The roster management has in fact been an issue since 2014. Kuale, Hurl, Carmichael, Sticking with Willy until almost being fired, Kelvin McKnight, Chris Matthews when he was crippled and couldn’t do anything. Tavarres whatever that was on the roster for 2 years and didn’t see a meaningful snap. Jake Thomas last year. That’s just off the top of my head. 

Their is no point to the rule.  Teams are going to have American veterans, who have been there three years regardless.  Is the naturalized rule why you keep Bryant, Jefferson, etc?

[Booch]

4 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Their is no point to the rule.  Teams are going to have American veterans, who have been there three years regardless.  Is the naturalized rule why you keep Bryant, Jefferson, etc?

Point to the rule is yhou can use an American, as opposed to a less talented backup Canadian player, and replace that said American Ratio wise with another American elsewhere...so yeah makes a hell of a lot of sense with even more benefits

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, Jesse said:

Now the problem with this line of thinking is guys like Alexander, Holm, Lawler, Nichols, Parker, Schoen, Streveler... who all came in and earned significant roles from Day 1. 

Obviously the process isn't and can't be perfect. But it's not like we have zero examples of it. Even with a veteran heavy team, there are examples every year of Americans coming in and earning spots. 

I agree. There have been a lot of outstanding first year players over the past several years here.

52 minutes ago, Booch said:

that guys have not been given a job right out of the gate from day one from impressive play like you were hinting at...Unless I misread what you were saying...the couple that did qere due to circumstance and somebody new had to fill the role, and the factNichols was just  amazing and why would you not start him from day one

 

we didnt bring him back

eventually all coaches get canned due toi them, and teams not responding to them...Dave Ritchie was best coach all around I have seen and had pleasure to be around...and eventually he too got canned from a particular flaw...tho the last time in Winnipeg that flaw wasn't entirely necessary at the time...but may have been headed that way....when it's time...it's time

Yep coaches are hired to be fired....but it would be a massively huge leap to think that time is now for O'Shea. Flaws and all, he is still the best coach in the CFL right now and even though we have lost the last 2 cups, we are the best in the west for the past 4 seasons. When we start losing then I hope the Bombers take a look at whether he should be kept on but until then it would be a really stupid move. Guys are still running thru walls for him and winning in the process,

Edited May 21 by GCn20

[Booch]

Just now, GCn20 said:

I agree. There have been a lot of outstanding first year players over the past several years here.

Yep coaches are hired to be fired....but it would be a massively huge leap to think that time is now for O'Shea. Flaws and all, he is still the best coach in the CFL right now and even though we have lost the last 2 cups, we are the best in the west for the past 4 seasons. When we start losing then I hope the Bombers take a look at whether he should be kept on but until then it would be a really stupid move. Guys are still running thru walls for him,

never said that...but another result from similar or same bad choices....and maybe another?....and showing a stubborness to not deviate...way better coaches than Osh been canned for that....and even less

Will re-itterate never said can him...but like he expects from his players...constant learning and working to get better.....the old do as I say not as I do is appropriate as well...

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Atomic said:

I know what happens to teams in this league who don't prioritize their Canadian talent, they end up in the toilet for years at a time. MOS definitely goes overboard in that regard but if that's his biggest flaw then I will gladly accept it. Yes it almost certainly cost us in the big game but would we have been in the big game 4 years in a row without the culture MOS has built here? Without a rock solid base of Canadians? Without being the number one destination for veteran free agents? I doubt it. Believe me, the players see how O'Shea treats his veterans and that's a selling point for Winnipeg.

That being said.... The point of talking about sports is often to give your opinion on what your favourite team could be doing better. Nothing wrong with that. The roster could always be one percent better, the team could always win one more game.

As far as firing O'Shea for his flaws? That's a tougher sell for me - he's got a lifetime membership as Blue Bomber coach as far as I'm concerned. We're lucky to have him. Flaws and all.

Great points all around. 
 

I think mos needs to be surrounded with the right COs. Plop was a great guy to support him early, buck has been better for his fit now. I think JY will be an improvement as he will want to do more and want more roster assets imo. 
 I already liked a lot of what I saw from JY in our front 7 usage as well. 
 

I don’t think that’s been raised either, JY let his lbers blitz for pressure not to eat a blocker up and other wise had them running around making plays. He moved fox and Lawson around on techniques to great affect as well. 
 

Considering the situation I thought buck called a good game as well. Saw some nice wrinkles set up 

[CrazyCanuck89]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

Point to the rule is yhou can use an American, as opposed to a less talented backup Canadian player, and replace that said American Ratio wise with another American elsewhere...so yeah makes a hell of a lot of sense with even more benefits

The Americans you're using would've been on the roster and starting regardless.

[Jesse]

2 hours ago, Booch said:

that guys have not been given a job right out of the gate from day one from impressive play like you were hinting at...Unless I misread what you were saying...the couple that did qere due to circumstance and somebody new had to fill the role, and the factNichols was just  amazing and why would you not start him from day one

I think you're talking in circles here, man.

Of course they earned their spots. There are always circumstances which dictate when guys are given their first opportunities. 

[rebusrankin]

I think what @Booch may be trying to argue is that MOS is slow/reluctant to allow younger americans to get on the roster/get a shot over american vets who have been here for awhile or who may need to be replaced.

Yes, some 1st years have started but its been in cases of open competition to replace guys. 

Schoen when we had an open receiving spot and he won the competition

Alford and Nichols when we had two open spots because Sayles and Rose had both left for the NFL.

Strevy because Matty was hurt.

 

[WinnipegGordo]

 

Injured olineman Kendall Randolph had be re-added to the roster. The Bombers transferred Castillo to the suspended list to make room for him. 

 

[Super Duper Negatron]

5 minutes ago, WinnipegGordo said:

 

Injured olineman Kendall Randolph had be re-added to the roster. The Bombers transferred Castillo to the suspended list to make room for him. 

 

They seriously couldn't find anyone to release?

[Blue In BC]

28 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

They seriously couldn't find anyone to release?

I wondered the same thing. Not one rookie that has played his way off the roster?

 

It's a very curious loophole in roster management.

[Bombertown]

Ok lurker coming out of the bushes for the year here…. 
The players all describe O’Shea as being “a players coach.” He’s loyal to his players, even if it’s sometimes to a fault. They’re not seen as just a number to switch in and out of the lineup every week like some teams. And then how many guys do we see take a pay cut to stay in Winnipeg? Loyalty breeds loyalty. 

 

[Booch]

2 hours ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

The Americans you're using would've been on the roster and starting regardless.

they could be yeah...or they could be a role guy too....fact of the matter use of it is only gonna benefit your overall roster...any discussion that it wouldnt....is just nit picking and arguing for the sake of just that...arguing...

 

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

I think what @Booch may be trying to argue is that MOS is slow/reluctant to allow younger americans to get on the roster/get a shot over american vets who have been here for awhile or who may need to be replaced.

Yes, some 1st years have started but its been in cases of open competition to replace guys. 

Schoen when we had an open receiving spot and he won the competition

Alford and Nichols when we had two open spots because Sayles and Rose had both left for the NFL.

Strevy because Matty was hurt.

 

some people can read....and decipher....kudos bro....