2024 Blue Bomber Training Camp

[Mike]

12 minutes ago, Jesse said:

It’s funny that you list the examples of the coaches doing exactly what you want them to do.

We bring in LBs and DTs and QBs every year. But they have to prove that they can hang in there first, and then they have to stick around to show that they know the play book, are culture fits, etc.

And I do agree with you in principle, but I really think you’re banging the drum too hard. It’s almost like arguing with aards on the other forum. Even when I agree with him, he just takes it so far in one direction that I feel the need to disagree with him.

How are those examples? And even if they are, which I don’t think they are because these guys all won open jobs, not actual competitions with veterans if my memory serves me correctly … then what’s wrong with us doing that more frequently? Even if I’m off on a few of those names (I know Schoen won an open job for sure, as did Alford but maybe Holm/Nichols beat out veterans) then that’s still only what … a handful in 4 years when we have 24 starting positions and we’ve had deteriorating skills (BA, Bighill, Jake) and severe health concerns (Jeffcoat, Kyrie) that would be pretty glaring signs to maybe start looking for the next guys? 
 

Our use of the practice roster and willingness to develop talent has been very poor over the past couple years. I get there’s been a real push for the “win-now”, but we still have to think about developing and finding new players as well

 

One guy we don’t talk about enough is Donald Rutledge. That guy won a job in training camp, came into the regular season like a man on a mission and had some scheme mistakes that ended up costing him his job to a veteran (Alden Darby) and by the end of the season, he had been reduced to a practice roster spot. Guy was named a divisional all-star as a rookie, but we relegated him to a practice roster job by the end of the season instead of letting him work through some growing pains as a rookie (all the while, we had other established veterans working through some performance issues as well) we essentially demoted him, gave him a pay cut and ended up losing him for nothing. To me, whether there are other circumstances or not, he wasn’t given the same leash veterans are and while I get that, there still has to be *some* leash for new guys and it doesn’t really seem like there is. If it was no leash, onto the next new guy, then okay I get it. But it’s so risk adverse. No leash for the new guy, onto the safe veteran move (and yes in this example, I know Darby played well for us but it was obviously a short term thing)

[bluedawg]

Just now, Mike said:

Guy was named a divisional all-star as a rookie, but we relegated him to a practice roster job by the end of the season instead of letting him work through some growing pains as a rookie

This is incorrect, he was accidentally named an all-star when the CFL had that all-star ballot gaffe 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, bluedawg said:

This is incorrect, he was accidentally named an all-star when the CFL had that all-star ballot gaffe 

Oh yeah true true. Point remains (but diminished) though, he was real solid for us initially. 

[rebusrankin]

The club bringing in another DT especially gives me hope that they are leaning towards going 2 American DTs.

[Mike]

Also just to add on to what I was saying before in my reply to you @Jesse

Are we really going to claim there’s been a competition for some of these roster spots when it comes to the guys on the back end of their careers? Have BA or Biggie even participated in training camp in the past two years? Even Jeffcoat … you could probably count the amount of times he practiced last year on two hands but at least he was effective 

[wbbfan]

42 minutes ago, BBlink said:

I guess Wilson has officially won the job as #3 (for the mean time). Now they have a new QB to start evaluating and taking reps.

Interesting that the other adds are defensive linemen

In an in deal world I’d love to have qb4 be some one who is a major run threat and can operate the strevy package in case he gets hurt. But otherwise Wilson is an exciting guy to develop. 
 

 

13 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

The club bringing in another DT especially gives me hope that they are leaning towards going 2 American DTs.

I should add that he played every alignment and position in college. We have made extensive use in the past few years of a heavy set with a dt at end, and that would be right up his alley. Honestly with his athleticism physically he could be a de full time. It requires a lot more polish in edge pass rushing though. 
 Very happy we brought him in. 
 

 

[Fatty Liver]

33 minutes ago, Mike said:

One guy we don’t talk about enough is Donald Rutledge. That guy won a job in training camp, came into the regular season like a man on a mission and had some scheme mistakes that ended up costing him his job to a veteran (Alden Darby) and by the end of the season, he had been reduced to a practice roster spot. Guy was named a divisional all-star as a rookie, but we relegated him to a practice roster job by the end of the season instead of letting him work through some growing pains as a rookie (all the while, we had other established veterans working through some performance issues as well) we essentially demoted him, gave him a pay cut and ended up losing him for nothing. To me, whether there are other circumstances or not, he wasn’t given the same leash veterans are and while I get that, there still has to be *some* leash for new guys and it doesn’t really seem like there is. If it was no leash, onto the next new guy, then okay I get it. But it’s so risk adverse. No leash for the new guy, onto the safe veteran move (and yes in this example, I know Darby played well for us but it was obviously a short term thing)

There is no explanation for Rutledge being demoted, he played well on the field, so it must have been something that happened off the field in the realm of FIFO.

Edited May 25 by Fatty Liver

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

There is no explanation for Rutledge being demoted, he played well on the field, so it must have been something that happened off the field in the realm of FIFO.

I don’t know, I seem to remember there were comments being made about how the grind of the longer season was an adjustment for him. That being said, you don’t get demoted for PEDs or drunk driving in Bomberland so I hate to think what he could’ve done.

[JohnnyAbonny]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don’t know, I seem to remember there were comments being made about how the grind of the longer season was an adjustment for him. That being said, you don’t get demoted for PEDs or drunk driving in Bomberland so I hate to think what he could’ve done.

Iirc he lined up with his hand on the paint on a 3rd down at the 1, I don’t remember him in many games after that. 

[Jesse]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

Also just to add on to what I was saying before in my reply to you @Jesse

Are we really going to claim there’s been a competition for some of these roster spots when it comes to the guys on the back end of their careers? Have BA or Biggie even participated in training camp in the past two years? Even Jeffcoat … you could probably count the amount of times he practiced last year on two hands but at least he was effective 

When it comes to Rutledge (or other examples of guys staying in depth roles or bouncing back and forth from the PR), and I’ve mentioned this a couple of times now, we can’t take the onus off of the player. I know we get excited when we see a guy make plays in game, but we also don’t know if he’s not where he should be on the field within the scheme, is he playing selfishly, is he dogging it in practice or in meetings? There’s so much that we don’t see. And we’ve been far too successful to think guys are losing snaps for no reason.

As to competitions in training camp, obviously there are guys who walk in to TC safe. But we also saw with Andrew Harris that when they lose their stuff, they’re gone. We brought in Daley when we weren’t getting enough at SAM, eventually replaced him. We acknowledged our kicking game wasn’t enough and kept bringing back Castillio, brought Lawler back into the fold. We are capable of recognizing weaknesses. 
 

And again, I am all on board with some of MOS’s roster management decisions. I’m just also acknowledging that there’s a lot we don’t see.

[Fatty Liver]

4 minutes ago, Jesse said:

When it comes to Rutledge (or other examples of guys staying in depth roles or bouncing back and forth from the PR), and I’ve mentioned this a couple of times now, we can’t take the onus off of the player. I know we get excited when we see a guy make plays in game, but we also don’t know if he’s not where he should be on the field within the scheme, is he playing selfishly, is he dogging it in practice or in meetings? There’s so much that we don’t see. And we’ve been far too successful to think guys are losing snaps for no reason.

As to competitions in training camp, obviously there are guys who walk in to TC safe. But we also saw with Andrew Harris that when they lose their stuff, they’re gone. We brought in Daley when we weren’t getting enough at SAM, eventually replaced him. We acknowledged our kicking game wasn’t enough and kept bringing back Castillio, brought Lawler back into the fold. We are capable of recognizing weaknesses. 
 

And again, I am all on board with some of MOS’s roster management decisions. I’m just also acknowledging that there’s a lot we don’t see.

You're correct Rutledge, Darby and Lawrence all kind of slipped away with no obvious diminishment in their play, much goes on that the eye can not see and no clear explanation is ever provided.

[JuranBoldenRules]

10 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

You're correct Rutledge, Darby and Lawrence all kind of slipped away with no obvious diminishment in their play, much goes on that the eye can not see and no clear explanation is ever provided.

Lawrence was awful for us.  Darby was terrible last season.  It's not that hard to see when a guy has 200 yards of passing go right through him in a game.

I have no qualms with our current staff and their ability to evaluate DB's.

The only guys I think they were too soft on were Rose and Alexander.  They both haven't been good players at all since the 21 Grey Cup.  Not sure why Alexander was brought back.

[wbbfan]

42 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

There is no explanation for Rutledge being demoted, he played well on the field, so it must have been something that happened off the field in the realm of FIFO.

 

36 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don’t know, I seem to remember there were comments being made about how the grind of the longer season was an adjustment for him. That being said, you don’t get demoted for PEDs or drunk driving in Bomberland so I hate to think what he could’ve done.

Yeah a lot of talk about him hitting a rookie wall hard. That said you can work through it and make use of the guy. Tremendous talent. Too bad  

 

 

4 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Lawrence was awful for us.  Darby was terrible last season.  It's not that hard to see when a guy has 200 yards of passing go right through him in a game.

I have no qualms with our current staff and their ability to evaluate DB's.

The only guys I think they were too soft on were Rose and Alexander.  They both haven't been good players at all since the 21 Grey Cup.  Not sure why Alexander was brought back.

100% those two crashed and burned here. 
We’ve had a stream of early season bad vet dbs as well. From glass to rock. 
 We can develop and scout dbs very well. We have squandered some talent at db but not much and you always have wasted potential. Db is a position that is among the least concerning here. 

[Booch]

1 hour ago, Jesse said:

It’s funny that you list the examples of the coaches doing exactly what you want them to do.

We bring in LBs and DTs and QBs every year. But they have to prove that they can hang in there first, and then they have to stick around to show that they know the play book, are culture fits, etc.

And I do agree with you in principle, but I really think you’re banging the drum too hard. It’s almost like arguing with aards on the other forum. Even when I agree with him, he just takes it so far in one direction that I feel the need to disagree with him.

They havnt got legit chances tho...and the vetting of the fit and culture match should been done prior too for the most part...so that argument is somewhat hollow

 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

They cut DB Anthony Witherstone and DL Jabari Ellis too 

 

Added DE Taylor Upshaw and DT Devin Adams

If uts the Adams I think it is I am stoked about this ...im traveling and just saw the transaction and havnt delved into it but i think its the dude

[JuranBoldenRules]

Upshaw is 6'5 275.  Not sure he's an end here, might be kind of a combo guy.

[Booch]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Also just to add on to what I was saying before in my reply to you @Jesse

Are we really going to claim there’s been a competition for some of these roster spots when it comes to the guys on the back end of their careers? Have BA or Biggie even participated in training camp in the past two years? Even Jeffcoat … you could probably count the amount of times he practiced last year on two hands but at least he was effective 

There has been zero...only time a new guy grabbed a spot right out of the shoot is because we had no incumbant coming back and poor PR management with nobody developing....but he will bang his drum with no real basis for it

 

59 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

There is no explanation for Rutledge being demoted, he played well on the field, so it must have been something that happened off the field in the realm of FIFO.

People use that too.much as reason for guys getting tossed away...it was no issue at all...many were victims of the old boys club and a coach's odd reasonings

[wbbfan]

4 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Upshaw is 6'5 275.  Not sure he's an end here, might be kind of a combo guy.

Not sure what his actually size is I see recent stuff saying as low as 246 and as big as 275. But I would think we’d be mainly looking at combo guys it’d make the most sense if he was that big and could play both spots. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, bluedawg said:

I could absolutely see Barriere getting a PR spot to develop with another team in the CFL. For one reason or another, he was not a fit in Buck's system. He looked like a high schooler out there at times in the preseason game and his interceptions and sacks taken all seemed to be due to a total lack of ability to process what CFL defenses are doing. 

The highlights were always him making plays off script and not going through reads like a pocket passer. Barriere's playmaking may translate to the CFL game but he did not look like an electric athlete ala Tre Ford and so clearly the Bombers thought the learning curve was too steep.

I could see BC bringing him in to learn from Vernon Adams since he's a former EWU QB. Or Calgary to reuinte with Baldwin like @Fatty Liver suggested. Maybe even Toronto

I think Barriere is in the mushy middle with like 100 other QB's who come out every year or so.

Yeah he has some highlights.  He played for a school that is a powerhouse.  But they had some pretty bad playoff losses when they played actual competition in his time.

They run a spread with a lot of RPO stuff...so he's reading off a playaction and then it's one read BOOM pass out to a screen or a flat or a slant.  Not a whole lot of hit this window from the pocket or throw through zones.

Doesn't look like he has the arm to play at this level IMO.  Could you build an offense around him?  Probably not, he's gotta be able to beat people by making tough throws in that 10-20 yard area.  That's how you win in this league.  NFL now too.  So we see these guys who run the spread stuff or some gunslinger types with big arms (Dolegala is a recent example) come in and really struggle to be consistent because they can't make those throws accurately and on time.

[Booch]

2 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

I think Barriere is in the mushy middle with like 100 other QB's who come out every year or so.

Yeah he has some highlights.  He played for a school that is a powerhouse.  But they had some pretty bad playoff losses when they played actual competition in his time.

They run a spread with a lot of RPO stuff...so he's reading off a playaction and then it's one read BOOM pass out to a screen or a flat or a slant.  Not a whole lot of hit this window from the pocket or throw through zones.

Doesn't look like he has the arm to play at this level IMO.  Could you build an offense around him?  Probably not, he's gotta be able to beat people by making tough throws in that 10-20 yard area.  That's how you win in this league.  NFL now too.  So we see these guys who run the spread stuff or some gunslinger types with big arms (Dolegala is a recent example) come in and really struggle to be consistent because they can't make those throws accurately and on time.

Makes total sense...he definately looked like he didnt know what he was seeing or where to go with the ball...

[JuranBoldenRules]

Still think it's kind of crazy how we're using the entire camp as basically an extended rookie camp.

I think these late entry guys just coming out of NFL mini camp almost have to have a leg up to make the team given how short the evaluation will be.  Kind of like Haba last year.

But why not cut a bunch of guys?  How can you truly evaluate anyone when you're giving 5 groups reps?

[WinnipegGordo]

3 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Still think it's kind of crazy how we're using the entire camp as basically an extended rookie camp.

I think these late entry guys just coming out of NFL mini camp almost have to have a leg up to make the team given how short the evaluation will be.  Kind of like Haba last year.

But why not cut a bunch of guys?  How can you truly evaluate anyone when you're giving 5 groups reps?

Stove also made the team after being a training camp addition.

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Still think it's kind of crazy how we're using the entire camp as basically an extended rookie camp.

I think these late entry guys just coming out of NFL mini camp almost have to have a leg up to make the team given how short the evaluation will be.  Kind of like Haba last year.

But why not cut a bunch of guys?  How can you truly evaluate anyone when you're giving 5 groups reps?

Yeah, it’s honestly quite frustrating. The established guys apparently don’t need reps. The new guys all lumped into a massive group not getting enough reps. Nowhere near enough information on anyone.

[Booch]

10 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Still think it's kind of crazy how we're using the entire camp as basically an extended rookie camp.

I think these late entry guys just coming out of NFL mini camp almost have to have a leg up to make the team given how short the evaluation will be.  Kind of like Haba last year.

But why not cut a bunch of guys?  How can you truly evaluate anyone when you're giving 5 groups reps?

Well...on the plus side obviously this yr you would think it means we are actually giving guys legit looks and maybe we see some weight pushed out the door

If a guy cam play...has talent and more than a peanut for a brain and puts in work off field too he doesnt have to sit on a PR all yr and then use yr 2 as his "chance" 

That belief in thats how the progression needs to be is a load of garbage...thats more suited for the Canadian kids coming out of USports..as 90 percent of them are just not ready...Not for the majority of rookie amsricans coming up...especially ones who have bounced on and off rosters...and PR's in the NFL

[wbbfan]

19 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yeah, it’s honestly quite frustrating. The established guys apparently don’t need reps. The new guys all lumped into a massive group not getting enough reps. Nowhere near enough information on anyone.

I really thought we’d do a round of cuts early this week. We always seem to do one early then announce the final one as late as possible. 
 It does compound the notion that we are doing things differently this year.

Though I wonder how much roster turn over and how many rookies are they willing to start? 

23 minutes ago, WinnipegGordo said:

Stove also made the team after being a training camp addition.

He did but that was also 5 years ago, and we were churning though dts and guys then. 

[Fatty Liver]

20 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I really thought we’d do a round of cuts early this week. We always seem to do one early then announce the final one as late as possible. 
 It does compound the notion that we are doing things differently this year.

Though I wonder how much roster turn over and how many rookies are they willing to start? 

He did but that was also 5 years ago, and we were churning though dts and guys then. 

Not so much, they had Nevis for at least 2 years prior and Poop Johnson had one good year before Stove came along.