Blue Bombers - 2024 Regular Season - Discussion Thread

[Booch]

19 minutes ago, Pete said:

nevef let the facts or stats get in the way of your opinion!

Pressures are very subjective....a QB may move his launch point from the perceived threat of a different guy tho., but to the untrained eye looks like a different player caused it...which is not the case...Thats why most leagues, and also player evaluators dont use it as a metric

I spend probably 4 months of the yr working with and evaluating and training players, so I think I have a good grasp of who is doing what...what and who is effective and that stats are a lot of time..as they say....for losers

And from the last 2 yrs and now this yr of watching bomber dline play a lot of Thomas' "stats" are a direct result of the play getting funneled into him where he was basically held up, from pressure and attacking lineman away from him...All you need to see is lateral movement with purpose, and agility....tackles of a ball carrier at..behind...or along the line of scrimmage from stretching out a play, or a backside pursuit and ball carrier take down...I bet you cant find any of that from him on film this year....you can from the other interior guys tho....if you wanna evaluate a guy...look for that...

[Noeller]

Redhawk Randy fined....

 

[HardCoreBlue]

39 minutes ago, voodoochylde said:

I'll be one of the first people to say we should be looking to move on from Thomas but he hasn't been as bad as some people are making him out to be. 

He's never been an "engine guy" and that's only more apparent as he's aged and ideally, he'd be more of a rotation piece taking limited snaps but the dude isn't playing terrible ball right now

I understand what you're saying but teams who win championships set the tone that average, not playing terrible ball is not good enough so its not just JT obviously in where we are at this year.

But because we are specifically talking about him its really obvious that trotting him out as a starter game in and game out is helping set a certain tone and even worse creating some tension with other players who are stepping up and/or with players who are sitting on the sidelines wanting their chance.

And yes @Bigblue204 championships are not won or lost in July you are correct sir but they sure are an important stepping stone in getting there. 🙂

Edited July 11 by HardCoreBlue

[Pete]

29 minutes ago, Booch said:

Pressures are very subjective....a QB may move his launch point from the perceived threat of a different guy tho., but to the untrained eye looks like a different player caused it...which is not the case...Thats why most leagues, and also player evaluators dont use it as a metric

I spend probably 4 months of the yr working with and evaluating and training players, so I think I have a good grasp of who is doing what...what and who is effective and that stats are a lot of time..as they say....for losers

And from the last 2 yrs and now this yr of watching bomber dline play a lot of Thomas' "stats" are a direct result of the play getting funneled into him where he was basically held up, from pressure and attacking lineman away from him...All you need to see is lateral movement with purpose, and agility....tackles of a ball carrier at..behind...or along the line of scrimmage from stretching out a play, or a backside pursuit and ball carrier take down...I bet you cant find any of that from him on film this year....you can from the other interior guys tho....if you wanna evaluate a guy...look for that...

granted, that Thomas lacks the mobility to drive pressures, however i feel the bigger issue is that who do we have that is better? Woods hasn't provided pressures, Adams shows some promise but overall our interior quality is lacking when it comes to quarterback pressures Obviously at the beginning of the year Lawton was pencilled in to be the starter based on his salary, but that ended with injury

Edited July 11 by Pete

[HardCoreBlue]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

granted, that Thomas lacks the mobility to drive pressures, however i feel the bigger issue is that who do we have that is better? Woods hasn't provided pressures, Adams shows some promise but overall our interior quality is lacking when it comes to quarterback pressures

I see our scouting department has entered into the discussion now. 🙂

[voodoochylde]

4 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I understand what you're saying but teams who win championships set the tone that average, not playing terrible ball is not good enough so its not just JT obviously in where we are at this year.

But because we are specifically talking about him its really obvious that trotting him out as a starter game in and game out is helping set a certain tone and even worse creating some tension with other players who are stepping up and/or with players who are sitting on the sidelines wanting their chance.

You don't know there's tension, that's your assumption.  

We do know that he's being awarded the lion's share of snaps.  Is it holding anyone on the roster back?  I don't know.  I do know that there aren't many guys behind him that are healthy right now and JT is doing everything that's been asked of him and more.  A defensive tackle leading the team in pressures is definitely stepping up and doing his part.  My issue with Thomas is that he's not stout enough inside to hold up against the run.  We've been fortunate that nobody has taken advantage of that but this is the CFL and, for the most part, running the ball is secondary.  

As I said, ideally he'd be a rotational piece and without the injury to Lawson, he'd be exactly that.

[rebusrankin]

I'd also like to see the criteria on pressures and a film break down but based on those Jake had more than I thought. Would need to see a comparison to other DTs.

I will point out that we are the worst against the run and tied for second last in sacks so its hard to argue Jake has been good or even average.

[HardCoreBlue]

3 minutes ago, voodoochylde said:

You don't know there's tension, that's your assumption.  

We do know that he's being awarded the lion's share of snaps.  Is it holding anyone on the roster back?  I don't know.  I do know that there aren't many guys behind him that are healthy right now and JT is doing everything that's been asked of him and more.  A defensive tackle leading the team in pressures is definitely stepping up and doing his part.  My issue with Thomas is that he's not stout enough inside to hold up against the run.  We've been fortunate that nobody has taken advantage of that but this is the CFL and, for the most part, running the ball is secondary.  

As I said, ideally he'd be a rotational piece and without the injury to Lawson, he'd be exactly that.

Yup thanks for the correction, I forgot to include may be in front of creating.

And I would suggest the what I have bolded in your response might be an assumption on your part depending on who you asked in the organization.

But hey at the EOD the predicament our BB's find themselves in right now is not just a defensive tackle issue but knowing most things start in the trenches its an important part of the larger discussion.

[Fatty Liver]

6 minutes ago, voodoochylde said:

You don't know there's tension, that's your assumption.  

We do know that he's being awarded the lion's share of snaps.  Is it holding anyone on the roster back?  I don't know.  I do know that there aren't many guys behind him that are healthy right now and JT is doing everything that's been asked of him and more.  A defensive tackle leading the team in pressures is definitely stepping up and doing his part.  My issue with Thomas is that he's not stout enough inside to hold up against the run.  We've been fortunate that nobody has taken advantage of that but this is the CFL and, for the most part, running the ball is secondary.  

As I said, ideally he'd be a rotational piece and without the injury to Lawson, he'd be exactly that.

Thomas is small for a DT at 6'-2" 274 lbs, many are pushing 300 lbs or slightly over.

[wbbfan]

2 hours ago, Booch said:

Thomas' pressures must be sneaky ones...or just a line collapsing...cause I rarely see him getting after the QB or requiring him to move around in the pocket...I've also seen Woods get pressures too...yet he has 0...he also has made a lot of plays with backside pursuit...same with Fox when he was in and Adams...Save for that one play last week ol Jakie Poo is usually lolly gagging behiond the play and trots/tippy toes up to it after the fact

I’ve seen Hubert and woods both generate pressures, how he’s quantifying a pressure would be the question. If you’re the second guy in and don’t get a sack is he counting that as a pressure? Is he counting sack assists as pressures, etc. also wj having a higher volume of snaps than Thomas by almost half a game is suspicious af. Thomas barely comes off and wj has been off for entire series in a couple games. 

[WinnipegGordo]

Fred Reid will be at the game. He's in town for a football camp.

 

[wbbfan]

35 minutes ago, Pete said:

granted, that Thomas lacks the mobility to drive pressures, however i feel the bigger issue is that who do we have that is better? Woods hasn't provided pressures, Adams shows some promise but overall our interior quality is lacking when it comes to quarterback pressures Obviously at the beginning of the year Lawton was pencilled in to be the starter based on his salary, but that ended with injury

Woods has been the best ng we’ve had since stove. Adams is hands down better inside, fox is better Hubert could play 3t, etc. 

 the job of our two dts are not the same, we use a guy who scrapes inside, gap cancels and tries to push the pocket back, and a guy who pass rushes from the interior. Sayles is a great example of a guy who excelled as a pass rush dt here. Thomas, isn’t in that role here, neither is woods, though woods could do that. 

21 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

Thomas is small for a DT at 6'-2" 274 lbs, many are pushing 300 lbs or slightly over.

It all depends on the role. The guy who plays A gaps and or nose is generally 290-305 for us. More often than not 300 or a shade under. Usually we use shorter, stocky, athletic noses. The pass rush guys in 3/4i tech are often 270 range. We have often played bigger ends like kongbo and Hansen inside at this spot, and used dts like sayles and walker in that spot while also rotating at de. 

[wbbfan]

41 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I see our scouting department has entered into the discussion now. 🙂

Woods fox adams lawson wj habba hubert and garbutt. That’s an impressive deep versatile group. The fact mos is married to the worst dl on our roster and that guys have been banged up isn’t on the scout department. That dl with schmekel would be among the best in the league. 

[HardCoreBlue]

6 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Woods fox adams lawson wj habba hubert and garbutt. That’s an impressive deep versatile group. The fact mos is married to the worst dl on our roster and that guys have been banged up isn’t on the scout department. That dl with schmekel would be among the best in the league. 

Another great example that I sometimes need to be reminded what my place is when it comes to specific types of football discussions. 🙂

[DTonOB]

37 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

...wj has been off for entire series in a couple games. 

The only full series Jefferson has missed was Calgary's 1-play drive that ended with Ford's interception. They may have been planning to sit him for a late Ottawa drive. But then Bonds got hurt and Jefferson came back in for the next play. I have him missing 9 defensive snaps through 5 games.

For Thomas, he sat out 16 snaps in the first game (they were running a bunch of 3 LB package with Cole/Karamoko). And 19 total in the four games since then.

[blue85gold]

25 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Woods fox adams lawson wj habba hubert and garbutt. That’s an impressive deep versatile group. The fact mos is married to the worst dl on our roster and that guys have been banged up isn’t on the scout department. That dl with schmekel would be among the best in the league. 

Is he married to anyone or are 5 of those guys hurt? 

[wbbfan]

31 minutes ago, blue85gold said:

Is he married to anyone or are 5 of those guys hurt? 

He’s married, because no matter who we have Thomas would get the snaps. The injuries are a freak occurrence, I dont think those fall on any one. If every one was healthy and stayed healthy, guys like woods and Hubert probably never see snaps. 
 

50 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Another great example that I sometimes need to be reminded what my place is when it comes to specific types of football discussions. 🙂

Every on has a place in the conversation, and every one can learn, it’s all about that growth mindset 👍

[Bigblue204]

4 hours ago, Tracker said:

Maybe because the rest of the western teams are in shambles?

Yeah apparently I was pretty off about that prediction....

[Colin Unger]

4 hours ago, voodoochylde said:

I'll be one of the first people to say we should be looking to move on from Thomas but he hasn't been as bad as some people are making him out to be. 

He's never been an "engine guy" and that's only more apparent as he's aged and ideally, he'd be more of a rotation piece taking limited snaps but the dude isn't playing terrible ball right now

I think we have been looking to move on from him but then Lawson got injured.

[17to85]

1 minute ago, Colin Unger said:

I think we have been looking to move on from him but then Lawson got injured.

Absolutely nothing supports this idea

[Booch]

8 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Absolutely nothing supports this idea

Nope...none...if that was the case he would have been gone last yr....even before camp broke Thomas was being mentioned as a key returning Canadian starter

[17to85]

Thomas is not needed from a ratio perspective,  if they had any inclination to move on from him it would be the absolute easiest decision in the world... instead he gets trotted out for every single series.

[Noeller]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Thomas is not needed from a ratio perspective,  if they had any inclination to move on from him it would be the absolute easiest decision in the world... instead he gets trotted out for every single series.

And the thing is, he was re-signed early this past offseason if I remember right... Like an absolute no doubter for some reason. I've got all the respect in the world for the 2019 core that got us two cups ... But my **** that's a long time ago, in pro sports terms.... Jake the first of several that needs to be ushered out in a professional manner. 

[rebusrankin]

50 minutes ago, Colin Unger said:

I think we have been looking to move on from him but then Lawson got injured.

Why did we sign him then? Hint, he was signed long before the Lawson injury.

[Pete]

4 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I see our scouting department has entered into the discussion now. 🙂

Have we replaced any starting player with another who is an upgrade over the one we lost ? Bonds for Parker is the closest.

ie Walker 

   Bailey

  Hardwick

 Grant

Grey

Jeffcoat

Houston

 

Edited July 12 by Pete