The 30, and the (d)evolution of our front scheme.

[Bigblue204]

12 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Thanks. 
 Yeah it’s frustrating. I thinks it’s a trap we fell into based around the expectation that we could endlessly replace all star imp dl with rookies of the same calibre. After two years of failing to do so and making do with what we have it’s back slid into mediocrity.
We struggle to move on from old vets and that makes it worse. Crazy how guys like nevis, stove, and sayles weren’t afforded that luxury. 

 Going into the season the coffers were bare but we found a few gems to polish. Now we need to get past the old boys club and keep cycling through some young guys to pressure those gems to become the best they can. 
 

Haha sooner or later it’ll happen. 

For what it's worth. I know KW tried to get Stove back from BC multiple times.

[Bubba Zanetti]

Just now, Bigblue204 said:

For what it's worth. I know KW tried to get Stove back from BC multiple times.

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

[bearpants]

16 hours ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

ChatGPT to the rescue:

 

 

The user is discussing changes in their football team's defensive front over the past few seasons, especially the transition to a 30 base front. They note that while the team's defense has evolved, pressure on the quarterback has decreased since 2021. The post provides a detailed breakdown of various defensive line (DL) techniques and roles (e.g., 0, 1, 3 tech), explaining how players line up and what gaps they aim to control.

The team had success with a nose tackle-heavy scheme in the past but has struggled after letting key players go, leading to inconsistent pressure from the defensive line. Recent seasons have seen experimentation with different alignments, including the "cheetah" front that emphasizes speed. Injuries and personnel changes have further affected performance, with some players struggling to maintain their previous form.

While the secondary has improved, the DL is no longer as effective, and the author hopes for better use of a 30 front featuring players like Adams, Woods, and Lawson to disrupt opposing offenses more consistently.

I read the entire OP and then I read this... it's amazing how accurate of recap this is

1 hour ago, Bubba Zanetti said:

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

Literally... he never took a single snap in a BC uniform

[3rdand1.5]

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

[Booch]

4 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

I can see the angle of the "seen that done that" view...that being said when yu no longer have the ability or the athletic skill any more to react to it...let alone make an impactful play then you become a serious liability...he can't do that no more, for 2+ yrs now really so it's really counter productive now and just delays the development of a younger giy with upside...we have more than enough vet depth and athletic guys to compensate for not rostering Thomas...

Havn't seen enough of Schmeck this yr....but I only see him as being a nice depth piece...but not a stalwart starter by any stretch...I see way more upside in Samson, and even skill at this oint...but he is the new guy here and as history has shown with our staff....many instances have used tenure/vet status/favorite to trump talent and upside

I agree tho...Lawson when back will be thatCanadian stalwart and would have already been that if he didnt have to play second fiddle to Thomas based on my previous comment...he was head and shoulders better 2 yrs ago already, but for 2025 him as the defacto Candadian DT/Nose and Samson taking theSchmeck spot with Adams and Woods rounding out the interior...we are looking pretty solid...and that's not even factoring in this coming draft....who we dig up scouting, and free agency

We seriously need to do whatever it takes...trade...free agency or bring in the number of bodies like we have before with DB'sfor a pure edge rusher to really set us up...and then keep whoever takes the 3rd end spot outta Haba and Garbutt

 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Atomic said:

It's interesting that despite these issues on the DL, the defence as a whole has mostly been pretty successful. Is the secondary just that good?

Our drop 9 really puts teams in a position where the fronts impact is minimalized. You can only block guys for soo long and when you have 9 guys sandwiching 5 targets, it takes a lot to make a play. Teams are also deathly allergic to the run these days, and to be frank the quality of qbing in the cfl is at atleast a 30 year low. 

1 hour ago, Bubba Zanetti said:

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

Yeah, while I don't agree with the decision not to keep him, it worked out very well. The real issue is that we moved on from stove and sayles with out any decent next man up. 

[wbbfan]

28 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

You do have a point. And it is entirely possible that Thomas could be useful as a limited rotational piece in the proper role. However, he has 0 efficacy as a nose tackle, and is playing by far the most snaps of any DL on our roster. If he was playing 1/4 of the defensive snaps at most, as a 3 tech (which is where most of his contribution here has come) he would have more to offer with out question. WIth a full healthy DL he'd still be at best our 4th DL. 

 Leadership and intangibles etc certainly have their worth. A guy like bailey has shown that. The big issue with keeping a guy like thomas around for that role, is we have Willy. Who is also the highest paid player on our D. He should be the one leading, teaching, and setting the tone. If it doesn't come from him, It simply won't mean nearly as much. A rookie imp DL fresh off NFL looks isn't going to take a guy like Jake nearly as serious as a guy like Willy. 

I agree on schmek. I think he should be groomed into a super utility guy, and really an OL. His motor, ethic and drive are superb. 

Keep in mind, stove was a young inexperienced imp in 19/21. So were guys like brandin bryant, poop johnson, and casey sayles. Experience, isn't a big requirement for performance on the DL. To date in their snaps woods and adams have been our best DL. 

Much of the year we haven't need the canadian DT. 

Its also not adaptation or evolution. We didn't adapt to teams defeating what we ran, and what we are doing isn't progress. Its devolution, we run far simpler less effective line schemes plus handicap our self with the guys we run out. All while having the pieces to fix it. 

 

Keep in mind, what we are running in the secondary is not long term sustainable with out pressure. Down south the fangio 6 scheme is not a base for any team, not even vic fangios. When the argos ran the similar drop 9 match cover scheme it didn't take long for teams to adjust either. At some point, we need to be able to stop the run with out run blitzing, and get sustained pressure. We will need to evolve to be a more dynamic 2nd level team at some point as well. 

27 minutes ago, Booch said:

I can see the angle of the "seen that done that" view...that being said when yu no longer have the ability or the athletic skill any more to react to it...let alone make an impactful play then you become a serious liability...he can't do that no more, for 2+ yrs now really so it's really counter productive now and just delays the development of a younger giy with upside...we have more than enough vet depth and athletic guys to compensate for not rostering Thomas...

Havn't seen enough of Schmeck this yr....but I only see him as being a nice depth piece...but not a stalwart starter by any stretch...I see way more upside in Samson, and even skill at this oint...but he is the new guy here and as history has shown with our staff....many instances have used tenure/vet status/favorite to trump talent and upside

I agree tho...Lawson when back will be thatCanadian stalwart and would have already been that if he didnt have to play second fiddle to Thomas based on my previous comment...he was head and shoulders better 2 yrs ago already, but for 2025 him as the defacto Candadian DT/Nose and Samson taking theSchmeck spot with Adams and Woods rounding out the interior...we are looking pretty solid...and that's not even factoring in this coming draft....who we dig up scouting, and free agency

We seriously need to do whatever it takes...trade...free agency or bring in the number of bodies like we have before with DB'sfor a pure edge rusher to really set us up...and then keep whoever takes the 3rd end spot outta Haba and Garbutt

 

I think if lawson was healthy and 100 today, woods would go onto the PR and we'd cut a DL. Lawson replacing thomas would go a long ways, but the rotation needs to be better and the best players still need to be on the active roster. 

[CrazyCanuck89]

14 hours ago, 17to85 said:

They became too married to the idea of a Canadian on the DL. It wasn't a necessity and they haven't got the heart to wind Thomas down.

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

[Booch]

9 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

Having players in spots tho...sure is depth....but are they quality tho making it worth while?...or actual legit "starter" quality.....In this regard...thats a big hell no

Lawson is quality...thats about it...we dont even know if Samson is as he never gets a chance....

Our Canadian Corner is top notch...no questions there

Our canadian Sam is average at best....look around the league...where would he go and be a starter...i see nowhere

The thing is we don't even need to start 3 on defence....based on who we declare on offence....so why dont we go with our "best" dline guys...and best SAM....and then you have a good back-up in Kramdi who can be used with rotational reps, and you can have a Canadian DT spell off your better Import DT's for 8 to 10 snaps a game...and when Lawson is back then it's even a non-issue as he can/could be the defacto starter himself

Thats the questions I ask...and want to hear good reasoning for

I used to feel the same with BA but the last 4 ..5 games he seems to have got his game back and the groups overall play as well is attributed to his leadership and direction out there

[17to85]

24 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

So what? They don't NEED it. But they forced it and kept more impactful imports on the sidelines to fit it.

[HardCoreBlue]

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

Our blitzes are like blintzes. Soft and cheesy. 

[Super Duper Negatron]

7 minutes ago, JCon said:

Our blitzes are like blintzes. Soft and cheesy. 

I sometimes think our DL is still practicing social distancing.

[3rdand1.5]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

You do have a point. And it is entirely possible that Thomas could be useful as a limited rotational piece in the proper role. However, he has 0 efficacy as a nose tackle, and is playing by far the most snaps of any DL on our roster. If he was playing 1/4 of the defensive snaps at most, as a 3 tech (which is where most of his contribution here has come) he would have more to offer with out question. WIth a full healthy DL he'd still be at best our 4th DL. 

 Leadership and intangibles etc certainly have their worth. A guy like bailey has shown that. The big issue with keeping a guy like thomas around for that role, is we have Willy. Who is also the highest paid player on our D. He should be the one leading, teaching, and setting the tone. If it doesn't come from him, It simply won't mean nearly as much. A rookie imp DL fresh off NFL looks isn't going to take a guy like Jake nearly as serious as a guy like Willy. 

I agree on schmek. I think he should be groomed into a super utility guy, and really an OL. His motor, ethic and drive are superb. 

Keep in mind, stove was a young inexperienced imp in 19/21. So were guys like brandin bryant, poop johnson, and casey sayles. Experience, isn't a big requirement for performance on the DL. To date in their snaps woods and adams have been our best DL. 

Much of the year we haven't need the canadian DT. 

Its also not adaptation or evolution. We didn't adapt to teams defeating what we ran, and what we are doing isn't progress. Its devolution, we run far simpler less effective line schemes plus handicap our self with the guys we run out. All while having the pieces to fix it. 

 

Keep in mind, what we are running in the secondary is not long term sustainable with out pressure. Down south the fangio 6 scheme is not a base for any team, not even vic fangios. When the argos ran the similar drop 9 match cover scheme it didn't take long for teams to adjust either. At some point, we need to be able to stop the run with out run blitzing, and get sustained pressure. We will need to evolve to be a more dynamic 2nd level team at some point as well. 

I think if lawson was healthy and 100 today, woods would go onto the PR and we'd cut a DL. Lawson replacing thomas would go a long ways, but the rotation needs to be better and the best players still need to be on the active roster. 

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

[Fatty Liver]

12 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Guessing both are done. Lawson coming back will be a big help. Hubert was very solid early, they like schmeck and are hooked on Jake. Plus we have Samson on the pr who is a legit prospect. 

50% chance Schmekel signs with Sask. this off-season, what should give him pause for thought is they make no use of Natls. on their O-line, so he'd remain a backup till that changes.

[wbbfan]

40 minutes ago, JCon said:

Our blitzes are like blintzes. Soft and cheesy. 

 

33 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

I sometimes think our DL is still practicing social distancing.

Lmao both nailed it. 

45 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

Since the early season struggles we blitz very seldom. Usually its the DB trying to sneak back side. When we get stuck for what ever reason on sending a bunch of guys it really amounts to nothing. Better chance of blocking kicks than productive blitz packages. But atleast the bighill sacrifice blitz is shelved now. 

 I wish we would bring our sam, wil/nikel, and mac to the line more. Show and drop them. Give the offence some thing to think about. Shift the Dl, twist really do a lot more with our pass rush. But we really don't have much on the AR for the BJB to work with. 

4 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

50% chance Schmekel signs with Sask. this off-season, what should give him pause for thought is they make no use of Natls. on their O-line, so he'd remain a backup till that changes.

Could be. Idk, once guys are here for a while they tend to lock in. No one else was giving schmek a shot either. Only time will tell. But we do have a couple guys developing on the DL if that does happen. 

 

10 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

I do agree adams isn't ready for thomas rep volume. But I really don't think any of the DL should play that volume either. 

Yeah pretty much. And it's sad because biggie was soo much better than that role. Tbh we could've gone with gauthier and had him do that will dropping biggie back. Dude had crazy range and wheels at his best. 

I hope we see new wrinkles start to emerge in the D. I have great hope for JY. Next year I think we are due for some shaking up of the Def asts. Stanley is more of a analytics guy than lber coach, and I love Patterson but I don't think he's done well coaching pass rushing. Hall could retire any year as well. I think our D really needs a coaching focus on pass rushing, getting off blocks, scraping to the hole/back etc. 

Been a really good discussion in here, I'm glad it's gone well. 

[TBURGESS]

3-4 defense = double moves + deep shots.

[HardCoreBlue]

3 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

 

Lmao both nailed it. 

Since the early season struggles we blitz very seldom. Usually its the DB trying to sneak back side. When we get stuck for what ever reason on sending a bunch of guys it really amounts to nothing. Better chance of blocking kicks than productive blitz packages. But atleast the bighill sacrifice blitz is shelved now. 

 I wish we would bring our sam, wil/nikel, and mac to the line more. Show and drop them. Give the offence some thing to think about. Shift the Dl, twist really do a lot more with our pass rush. But we really don't have much on the AR for the BJB to work with. 

Could be. Idk, once guys are here for a while they tend to lock in. No one else was giving schmek a shot either. Only time will tell. But we do have a couple guys developing on the DL if that does happen. 

 

I do agree adams isn't ready for thomas rep volume. But I really don't think any of the DL should play that volume either. 

Yeah pretty much. And it's sad because biggie was soo much better than that role. Tbh we could've gone with gauthier and had him do that will dropping biggie back. Dude had crazy range and wheels at his best. 

I hope we see new wrinkles start to emerge in the D. I have great hope for JY. Next year I think we are due for some shaking up of the Def asts. Stanley is more of a analytics guy than lber coach, and I love Patterson but I don't think he's done well coaching pass rushing. Hall could retire any year as well. I think our D really needs a coaching focus on pass rushing, getting off blocks, scraping to the hole/back etc. 

Been a really good discussion in here, I'm glad it's gone well. 

Yup, exactly and not having any specific suggestions based on our current AR talent, there seems to a lot of room for improvement in better achieving this.

[Booch]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

So what? They don't NEED it. But they forced it and kept more impactful imports on the sidelines to fit it.

exactly....just for a lack of a better word....stupid, 

[wbbfan]

27 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

3-4 defense = double moves + deep shots.

Except basically no one runs a 3-4 in Canada. What we are running on 2nd down is basically 3-1 and 3-0. The 1 backer is frequently spying the qb/rb and playing a shallow zone. 
 The argos mid 2ks bend but don’t break 30 defence was the closest thing, playing a 3-3 at times. But even then they played a lot of match zone quarters which is excellent at defending the deep shot. 

[Booch]

59 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

I don't think it's a case of Thomas eating up a blocker or 2 for othrs to come free....He cant get off a blocl now, and oline guys basically just wash him out and move him out of the way, or render him innefective as he has next to zero abolity now to make a back side play.

Now this would be kind of a benefit if it did allow the pressure or congestion to filter plays to the other dlineman...but more times than not it's just the area of attack for the particular offence, and with little to no  impedement there we get big swaths of yards up the gut....almost the reverse of keying on a key guy to take him out and attack the weak areas...

Now we also have Fox....who is a wide body and can almost play a Nevis role for us...eating up interior lineman but at the same time the stength and atheticism to get off blocks and make plays as well 3 yards in front and behind the L.O.S....here's where we have failed the last 3 yrs in getting that guy to allow the other DT or nose to work....and also work in tandem...as our ends cash in

 

Edited September 6 by Booch

[3rdand1.5]

1 minute ago, Booch said:

I don't think it's a case of Thomas eating up a blocker or 2 for othrs to come free....He cant get off a blocl now, and oline guys basically just wash him out and move him out of the way, or render him innefective as he has next to zero abolity now to make a back side play.

Now this would be kind of a benefit if it did allow the pressure or congestion to filter plays to the other dlineman...but more times than not it's just the area of attack for the particular offence, and with little to know impedement there we get big swaths of yards up the gut....almost the reverse of keying on a key guy to take him out and attack the weak areas...

Now we also have Fox....who is a wide body and can almost play a Nevis role for us...eating up interior lineman but at the same time the stength and atheticism to get off blocks and make plays as well 3 yards in front and behind the L.O.S....here's where we have failed the last 3 yrs in getting that guy to allow the other DT or nose to work....and also work in tandem...as our ends cash in

 

Fox......ya I admit I completely forgot about him...Is he healthy?

[Booch]

1 minute ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

Fox......ya I admit I completely forgot about him...Is he healthy?

he looks like close...was a shoulder/elbow issue I believe....

[Stickem]

Speaking of Lawson , when's he due to return....He's almost missed the whole season so far....Sure could use him

[Noeller]

1 hour ago, Stickem said:

Speaking of Lawson , when's he due to return....He's almost missed the whole season so far....Sure could use him

Out for the year was the call early on...