Are we shifting the goat's horns from MOS to Buck?

[BigBlue]

I sort of keep track of where our blame comments are directed to as we prognosticate about the negatives on our Beloved Blue.

I detect some of us amateurs are not quite as negative about our head coach as he racks up the current winning streak. Comments comparing him to Bud Grant might be having an influence at the moment.

Last year as Craig Dickenson looked like he was going to be cast aside by the Rider',s so many were desperately hoping that we would not lose Buck Pierce to Regina as HC. Now here in early September Buck's play seleection is being heavily called into question. He has not been this kind of a target in a big way for a long time,, if ever.

Personally, I believe Paul LaPolice as Pierce's mentor mis-educated him in many ways and left him with a number of bad habits. At times I want to pull my hair out and scream.

The biggest problem I have with Buck is that when we are on a roll offensively, we switch to lead protection instead of ratcheting it up a notch with killer instinct. I enjoy watching teams that press home their advantage when the other team is currently on the ropes. I can live with most other things but not that.

Yes I don't mind if we go more conservative with the lead; there is certain amount of sense to it. However, when we detect a habitual weakness I really believe we should go after it with all we got.

Still, I believe Pierce is a superior offensive coordinator. He does have creativity and a certain brilliance if he allows himself to use it.

What say you?

Edited September 9 by BigBlue

[bryan35]

I believe Pierce is a more than capable OC. As you said there is a certain amount of playing it safe and not forcing things. Most fans want the wide open taking chances style which can lead to losses. Wins keep people employed.

As fans we aren't privy to who is playing hurt and what their limitations are so we can get frustrated. Knowing the defensive schemes of the opponent and it's weaknesses  is a big part of the OC's role.  Coaches need to be constantly learning and adapting to be successful.

The decline in the Oline has played a huge role struggles of the O this year. Hard to pin that on the OC.

Edited September 9 by bryan35

[wbbfan]

Improving the team through a hc change wouldn’t be easy. Improving the team through an oc change would be easy, just like how our D has improved dramatically with a dc change. 
 A hc does a lot of things, many do too much and micro manage the D or O.  Mos does one thing poorly, roster management. Our team as a whole isn’t good at challenges and that’s far from just on mos. Some of the roster issue goes to Walter’s as well. The primary point of failure in our offence is buck. 

[Booch]

I think Buck has a good ability to create schemes and plays....but doesn't seem to know how to use it in the game...how to adapt and see whats actually going on, and how to attack it...and how to defend against what's stiffling us

A game day play call co-ordinator tho would do wonders here , and allow Buck the time to dig into the play book or scheme up the counter attack...I think he struggles with that aspect in games....

[Mark H.]

28 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

 Some of the roster issue goes to Walter’s as well. The primary point of failure in our offence is buck. 

When I said I thought the OL had a decent game, I meant considering all the changes and being without Bryant

But that does seem to be an area where more should be done, and I'm not sure how much say Buck has in that

Love Neuf's feistiness but he's not getting any younger - same thing with Bryant 

Then there's Kola and Eli - seems like that situation could be better 

[GCn20]

Buck is hamstrung right now by rookies throughout his lineup. Playing safe? Sure. Will he stay that way...not once guys get the amount of reps, recognition, and familiarity that will allow him to open things up a bit. Schoen being out, Bailey gone, and the OL being a patchwork crew have necessitated what he is doing right now. We may not like it...but that is the reality.

[blue85gold]

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Buck is hamstrung right now by rookies throughout his lineup. Playing safe? Sure. Will he stay that way...not once guys get the amount of reps, recognition, and familiarity that will allow him to open things up a bit. Schoen being out, Bailey gone, and the OL being a patchwork crew have necessitated what he is doing right now. We may not like it...but that is the reality.

Buck can do better but yeah the O has had a bad run of injuries and changes this year. Pokey has been nice filling in for Bailey but the drop off from Schoen to Johnson is a bottomless pit. 

[GCn20]

59 minutes ago, blue85gold said:

Buck can do better but yeah the O has had a bad run of injuries and changes this year. Pokey has been nice filling in for Bailey but the drop off from Schoen to Johnson is a bottomless pit. 

The OL ain't exactly up to snuff either.

[17to85]

So here's a question.... is Collaros an easy qb to coordinate for? He seems like a guy who is at his absolute best when he's able to improvise (an ability which had greatly diminished these days) and he has said how many times he hated the system in Sask when he was there... is it possible that he's a guy who just can't or won't execute a gameplan he doesn't like?

[Mark H.]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So here's a question.... is Collaros an easy qb to coordinate for? He seems like a guy who is at his absolute best when he's able to improvise (an ability which had greatly diminished these days) and he has said how many times he hated the system in Sask when he was there... is it possible that he's a guy who just can't or won't execute a gameplan he doesn't like?

Fair question. On Saturday, he was definitely going through several reads, and then often tossing a check down instead of forcing it. Definitely not as many 50/50 balls. I'd say the most noticable thing was missed throws (usually to Lawler) that would have been absolute daggers.

[Fatty Liver]

13 hours ago, BigBlue said:

I sort of keep track of where our blame comments are directed to as we prognosticate about the negatives on our Beloved Blue.

I detect some of us amateurs are not quite as negative about our head coach as he racks up the current winning streak. Comments comparing him to Bud Grant might be having an influence at the moment.

Last year as Craig Dickenson looked like he was going to be cast aside by the Rider',s so many were desperately hoping that we would not lose Buck Pierce to Regina as HC. Now here in early September Buck's play seleection is being heavily called into question. He has not been this kind of a target in a big way for a long time,, if ever.

Personally, I believe Paul LaPolice as Pierce's mentor mis-educated him in many ways and left him with a number of bad habits. At times I want to pull my hair out and scream.

The biggest problem I have with Buck is that when we are on a roll offensively, we switch to lead protection instead of ratcheting it up a notch with killer instinct. I enjoy watching teams that press home their advantage when the other team is currently on the ropes. I can live with most other things but not that.

Yes I don't mind if we go more conservative with the lead; there is certain amount of sense to it. However, when we detect a habitual weakness I really believe we should go after it with all we got.

Still, I believe Pierce is a superior offensive coordinator. He does have creativity and a certain brilliance if he allows himself to use it.

What say you?

You seem to be suggesting taking more big shots downfield is the needed solution, whereas Zach waiting longer behind a crumbling O-line gazing down field for a receiver to emerge has led to more sacks and backfield fumbles in the last 2 seasons.

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

I think Buck has a good ability to create schemes and plays....but doesn't seem to know how to use it in the game...how to adapt and see whats actually going on, and how to attack it...and how to defend against what's stiffling us

A game day play call co-ordinator tho would do wonders here , and allow Buck the time to dig into the play book or scheme up the counter attack...I think he struggles with that aspect in games....

When we had that string of injuries to the rec core early. It was painfully obvious he had a hard time adjusting. They use Streveler as a slot and just let him run horrible routes. No changes, no using him as a potential run threat ..just line him up as a rec and go. So much could have been done there, but it was like Buck just wouldn't change course.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

I think Buck has a good ability to create schemes and plays....but doesn't seem to know how to use it in the game...how to adapt and see whats actually going on, and how to attack it...and how to defend against what's stiffling us

A game day play call co-ordinator tho would do wonders here , and allow Buck the time to dig into the play book or scheme up the counter attack...I think he struggles with that aspect in games....

Yep. Same weakness as lapo. I think he does struggle with game planning situationally going into games though. Stuff like how to beat pressure, how to develop the offensive point of attack, and how to manipulate the D into giving you a specific look/opening. 
 

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

When I said I thought the OL had a decent game, I meant considering all the changes and being without Bryant

But that does seem to be an area where more should be done, and I'm not sure how much say Buck has in that

Love Neuf's feistiness but he's not getting any younger - same thing with Bryant 

Then there's Kola and Eli - seems like that situation could be better 

Yeah Bryant hurts but honestly it’s not one spot hurting us like you say. We are suffering in a bunch of spots because of a bunch of different decisions. 
 

6 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

You seem to be suggesting taking more big shots downfield is the needed solution, whereas Zach waiting longer behind a crumbling O-line gazing down field for a receiver to emerge has led to more sacks and backfield fumbles in the last 2 seasons.

you’re right in general that it takes time to throw down field. But you can run timing routes down field to put the D on their heels. Think 4x1 throwing an arcing fade on a short drop, that the wr runs under. You throw it to a spot and trust your wr to go get it. We could run that with lawler, or with lucky based on speed. 
 That type of play can be bang bang and puts the ball 25-35 yards down field and has a chance to score. And it can be executed before a rush hits the qb. 
 But it needs to not be done too much, and you need to back it up by hammering the seam by the S on the other side to prevent cheating and the S running it down. Though not many teams have burners at S any more. 
 

We really need to stretch the field in multiple directions. We aren’t doing well with the screen game (not talking check downs, I mean fast YAC screens) or with jet type motion, or outside/wide zone runs. 
 You have to attack the seams of the D and force them to adjust then attack new seams. We don’t do that. 
 

Bob Wiley put it great, sacks aren’t just on the ol and teams get in the habit of giving them up in many different ways. You have to prevent sacks with more than the ol blocking. 

[GCn20]

Buck has come under fire the last 2 weeks for being pretty vanilla and not taking shots down the field. Sometimes your opponent dictates that as your best strategy though. The reason the Riders have won any games this year is because their defence has been creating a mountain of turnovers. Take the turnovers away that they are not a winning club. We went with a game plan the last 2 games to minimize turnovers.  I am not seeing the problem with that.

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Buck has come under fire the last 2 weeks for being pretty vanilla and not taking shots down the field. Sometimes your opponent dictates that as your best strategy though. The reason the Riders have won any games this year is because their defence has been creating a mountain of turnovers. Take the turnovers away that they are not a winning club. We went with a game plan the last 2 games to minimize turnovers.  I am not seeing the problem with that.

It’s not been 2 weeks nor has it been based on taking shots. It’s based on having the lowest passer efficiency in the league, being the only team with single digit passing tds, fewest first down passes, the 2nd lowest 2nd down conversion rate, 2nd fewest big plays on passes, 2nd most picks, 3rd most fumbles, 3rd most offensive penalties (fewest on D), top 3 in red zone plays (74) with 2nd fewest red zone tds (18), lowest red zone completion % (48.3) fewest red zone passing TDS with 4 out of 29 attempts, 2nd most 2 and outs, and actually being right in the middle of the pack in sacks given up. Fun fact, we actually have 69 pass attempts longer than 20 yards this year which puts us in the top half. 

And on top of all that offensive futility passing in the red zone, we haven’t been able to run Brady in once this year. 

Defences don’t dictate game play, especially in the cfl, double especially since the hash mark move. They might take away one look on a particular snap, but you still have a massive amount of options left. And you can force the D to defend areas on the field leaving openings elsewhere. 

Edited September 9 by wbbfan

[bryan35]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Yep. Same weakness as lapo. I think he does struggle with game planning situationally going into games though. Stuff like how to beat pressure, how to develop the offensive point of attack, and how to manipulate the D into giving you a specific look/opening. 
 

Yeah Bryant hurts but honestly it’s not one spot hurting us like you say. We are suffering in a bunch of spots because of a bunch of different decisions. 
 

you’re right in general that it takes time to throw down field. But you can run timing routes down field to put the D on their heels. Think 4x1 throwing an arcing fade on a short drop, that the wr runs under. You throw it to a spot and trust your wr to go get it. We could run that with lawler, or with lucky based on speed. 
 That type of play can be bang bang and puts the ball 25-35 yards down field and has a chance to score. And it can be executed before a rush hits the qb. 
 But it needs to not be done too much, and you need to back it up by hammering the seam by the S on the other side to prevent cheating and the S running it down. Though not many teams have burners at S any more. 
 

We really need to stretch the field in multiple directions. We aren’t doing well with the screen game (not talking check downs, I mean fast YAC screens) or with jet type motion, or outside/wide zone runs. 
 You have to attack the seams of the D and force them to adjust then attack new seams. We don’t do that. 
 

Bob Wiley put it great, sacks aren’t just on the ol and teams get in the habit of giving them up in many different ways. You have to prevent sacks with more than the ol blocking. 

That works if you have single coverage. If there is inside help..not so good.

Edited September 9 by bryan35

[17to85]

Honestly I think a lot of the problems stem from Collaros. Even when he was young and quick he flat out sucked at the short game. He thrived with a league best OL and the ability to buy time with his legs. He's lost that now and the offense suffers because you can't really ask the guy to play the quick game. It's just not his strength. 

 

But I dunno that's just my thoughts.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, bryan35 said:

That works if you have single coverage. If there is inside help..not so good.

That’s why it’s run off an iso 4x1 set. Pre snap read is 80% the decider. Then on the snap if the S/hb isn’t on a full sprint it’s 1on1. If they cheat over to help the seam is wide open. 
 

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Honestly I think a lot of the problems stem from Collaros. Even when he was young and quick he flat out sucked at the short game. He thrived with a league best OL and the ability to buy time with his legs. He's lost that now and the offense suffers because you can't really ask the guy to play the quick game. It's just not his strength. 

 

But I dunno that's just my thoughts.

 Collaros is with out question worse, part of that is he deals with pressure poorly. 
 But the throws and mobility he has left is honestly more than a bunch of teams have had to work with this year. The oc has to make the most of the qb he has. Buck makes the worst of it. It’s the same reason we get away from the run soo much and still can’t make use of Brady in the red zone. 
 

 

[Jpan85]

Funny how you can go from Genius to Idiot in 12 months

[wbbfan]

20 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

Funny how you can go from Genius to Idiot in 12 months

Except the issues aren’t 12 months old, it’s been talked about longer than that. He struggled dealing with pressure and off setting zachs forcing it all last year. 

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Collaros is with out question worse, part of that is he deals with pressure poorly. 
 But the throws and mobility he has left is honestly more than a bunch of teams have had to work with this year. The oc has to make the most of the qb he has. Buck makes the worst of it. It’s the same reason we get away from the run soo much and still can’t make use of Brady in the red zone. 

I agree. For all his limitations, we should be able to win with ZC behind centre.

Wait...we have been winning of late...

We need Hootie here...to do a rant about how Bomber fans aren't happy with 'just winning.'

[Noeller]

25 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

I agree. For all his limitations, we should be able to win with ZC behind centre.

Wait...we have been winning of late...

We need Hootie here...to do a rant about how Bomber fans aren't happy with 'just winning.'

17to85 always used to talk about how "when we finally win a GC, there's gonna be people (TBurg) who say 'ya but we didn't win it the RIGHT way'..."

 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

I agree. For all his limitations, we should be able to win with ZC behind centre.

Wait...we have been winning of late...

We need Hootie here...to do a rant about how Bomber fans aren't happy with 'just winning.'

Yes, by way of historic efforts from the D. We are as likely to have tds on teams and D as passing on our offence, and Brady rushing combined. Which is insane in the cfl. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

9 hours ago, Mark H. said:

When I said I thought the OL had a decent game, I meant considering all the changes and being without Bryant

But that does seem to be an area where more should be done, and I'm not sure how much say Buck has in that

Love Neuf's feistiness but he's not getting any younger - same thing with Bryant 

Then there's Kola and Eli - seems like that situation could be better 

Our Canadians as a group on the OL are probably the worst in the entire league right now.

It would be between us and Sask.

23 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yes, by way of historic efforts from the D. We are as likely to have tds on teams and D as passing on our offence, and Brady rushing combined. Which is insane in the cfl. 

We have 3 TD's of 24 not scored by the O.  1 by the D, 2 on special teams fumble recoveries.  That's 88% on O, 12% any other way.  So not quite what you're spewing here.

We did have teams that had historic takeaway records from 2016-2022.  This team is nowhere near that.  D is not taking the ball away.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Our Canadians as a group on the OL are probably the worst in the entire league right now.

It would be between us and Sask.

We have 3 TD's of 24 not scored by the O.  1 by the D, 2 on special teams fumble recoveries.  That's 88% on O, 12% any other way.  So not quite what you're spewing here.

We did have teams that had historic takeaway records from 2016-2022.  This team is nowhere near that.  D is not taking the ball away.

That’s 3 on teams n D, vs 4 red zone passing tds. 
 You really think the offence has been the difference maker and carried us to the win streak vs the D doing? Lol ok 

 historic efforts from the D. Not historic turn overs from the D.