AC to retire

[johnzo]

Garcia while putting up some very respectable numbers certainly doesn't stand out as much as Moon did in a similar shortened CFL career.  1 Grey Cup. 1 CFL all-star. The fact that the Stamps had the same record in 1999 upon Garcia's departure and still made it to the Grey Cup suggests that the team surrounding him was quite good and may have very well enhanced his stats.  Bottom line - not quite a large enough resume and didn't stand out enough during his brief tenure.  IF we were to include him as a top-5, we would have to consider Dave Dickenson as well. 

 

This is a great point about Dickenson/Garcia: if you're going to downgrade AC because he had a great supporting cast and good coaching, then you have to downgrade both those guys too, given how the Stamps were a titan regardless of which one of them played. That was a hell of a QB dynasty in Calgary in the 90s

[iso_55]

I think a lot of the reason Calvillo is down on the list in a lot of fans eyes is the way he handled himself under Hawkins. It's not good when the CFL's leading passer & 20 year veteran goes out of his ways to point fingers continually game after game at others & not take any of the blame himself last season. It was shocking to see him come across as such a self centred player. Yeah, he had a great career in Montreal but he was garbage in Hamilton. So bad that he was shell shocked & needed a couple of years behind Tracy Ham in Montreal to gather himself up as a professional qb in order to continue. I think he lost sight of the fact his coach needed help to adjust similar to when he first started out or went thru hard times. He forgot that. That diminished his lustre a bit. I know it did for me.

[17to85]

 

 

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

I'm not talking overall career I'm talking peak. That 2002 season was something special I think people have forgotten about it. 46 td passes is an unreal number. The difference of course is that Jones got his shoulder messed up real quick and he didn't last long. Durability is a nice thing for an overall career but if we're just looking at guys in their peak then yes I put Jones up there even if his peak was only a few years. 

 

KJ's best season 

Team Comp Att % Yards Long TD % Ints % Rating

WPG   382  620 61.6 5,334 83 46 7.4 29 4.7 94.5

 

vs. Cavlillo's best seasons

2004 MTL 431 690 62.5 6,041 81 31 4.5 15 2.2 96.6

2008 MTL 472 682 69.2 5,633 81 43 6.3 13 1.9 107.2

 

I still respectfully disagree with the notion that Jones at any point was better than Calvillo.

 

are you going to take into account differences in team make up? Cause you can quite easily argue that those numbers aren't all that different and that Jones never once had an offensive line as good as the ones Calvillo had when he put up his best years. Yes Jones had Milt Stegall, but Calvillo wasn't throwing to useless receivers either and arguably had more depth to use than Jones ever did. You also had Charles Roberts being used quite extensively in that time as well. Is it any coincidence that Calvillo didn't see a real drastic increase in his passing numbers until after Mike Pringle retired? All these things matter, and I did say that in my mind Jones did more with less so when we have numbers that are very much comparable then we start to see how the more with less argument trumps some slight variations in the numbers. 

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

I'm not talking overall career I'm talking peak. That 2002 season was something special I think people have forgotten about it. 46 td passes is an unreal number. The difference of course is that Jones got his shoulder messed up real quick and he didn't last long. Durability is a nice thing for an overall career but if we're just looking at guys in their peak then yes I put Jones up there even if his peak was only a few years. 

 

KJ's best season 

Team Comp Att % Yards Long TD % Ints % Rating

WPG   382  620 61.6 5,334 83 46 7.4 29 4.7 94.5

 

vs. Cavlillo's best seasons

2004 MTL 431 690 62.5 6,041 81 31 4.5 15 2.2 96.6

2008 MTL 472 682 69.2 5,633 81 43 6.3 13 1.9 107.2

 

I still respectfully disagree with the notion that Jones at any point was better than Calvillo.

 

are you going to take into account differences in team make up? Cause you can quite easily argue that those numbers aren't all that different and that Jones never once had an offensive line as good as the ones Calvillo had when he put up his best years. Yes Jones had Milt Stegall, but Calvillo wasn't throwing to useless receivers either and arguably had more depth to use than Jones ever did. You also had Charles Roberts being used quite extensively in that time as well. Is it any coincidence that Calvillo didn't see a real drastic increase in his passing numbers until after Mike Pringle retired? All these things matter, and I did say that in my mind Jones did more with less so when we have numbers that are very much comparable then we start to see how the more with less argument trumps some slight variations in the numbers. 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[17to85]

Yes we will, as long as you accept that I am correct and that Calvillo is a piece of crap. 

[Jacquie]

I think a lot of the reason Calvillo is down on the list in a lot of fans eyes is the way he handled himself under Hawkins. It's not good when the CFL's leading passer & 20 year veteran goes out of his ways to point fingers continually game after game at others & not take any of the blame himself last season. It was shocking to see him come across as such a self centred player. Yeah, he had a great career in Montreal but he was garbage in Hamilton. So bad that he was shell shocked & needed a couple of years behind Tracy Ham in Montreal to gather himself up as a professional qb in order to continue. I think he lost sight of the fact his coach needed help to adjust similar to when he first started out or went thru hard times. He forgot that. That diminished his lustre a bit. I know it did for me.

 

I seem to remember AC including himself when he said they didn't perform well. He talked a lot about the whole team which would include him. 

[Brandon]

Calvillo definitely was better then Khari its not even a discussion to have.

[Brandon]

The question is Khari better then Burris? Burris had many more productive years , has a ring and had success with multiple teams while Khari stunk it up elsewhere.

[iso_55]

 

I think a lot of the reason Calvillo is down on the list in a lot of fans eyes is the way he handled himself under Hawkins. It's not good when the CFL's leading passer & 20 year veteran goes out of his ways to point fingers continually game after game at others & not take any of the blame himself last season. It was shocking to see him come across as such a self centred player. Yeah, he had a great career in Montreal but he was garbage in Hamilton. So bad that he was shell shocked & needed a couple of years behind Tracy Ham in Montreal to gather himself up as a professional qb in order to continue. I think he lost sight of the fact his coach needed help to adjust similar to when he first started out or went thru hard times. He forgot that. That diminished his lustre a bit. I know it did for me.

 

I seem to remember AC including himself when he said they didn't perform well. He talked a lot about the whole team which would include him. 

 

Not at first. He seemed always pissed off about something going wrong. He did begrudgingly after a few weeks of hissy fits on the sidelines & on the field. Nope, the guy looked like a jerk at times with his WTH motion with his arms or pointing to the receiver saying he ran the wrong route on a busted play, etc. 

[blueandgoldguy]

I think a lot of the reason Calvillo is down on the list in a lot of fans eyes is the way he handled himself under Hawkins. It's not good when the CFL's leading passer & 20 year veteran goes out of his ways to point fingers continually game after game at others & not take any of the blame himself last season. It was shocking to see him come across as such a self centred player. Yeah, he had a great career in Montreal but he was garbage in Hamilton. So bad that he was shell shocked & needed a couple of years behind Tracy Ham in Montreal to gather himself up as a professional qb in order to continue. I think he lost sight of the fact his coach needed help to adjust similar to when he first started out or went thru hard times. He forgot that. That diminished his lustre a bit. I know it did for me.

I think within a few years no one will really remember Calvillo's attitude regarding Hawkins. 

 

Didn't Clements have a similar "bad attitude" in Regina when he played for the Roughriders in 80 or 81.  Didn't he force them to trade him to Hamilton halfway through the season?

[blueandgoldguy]

 

 

 

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

I'm not talking overall career I'm talking peak. That 2002 season was something special I think people have forgotten about it. 46 td passes is an unreal number. The difference of course is that Jones got his shoulder messed up real quick and he didn't last long. Durability is a nice thing for an overall career but if we're just looking at guys in their peak then yes I put Jones up there even if his peak was only a few years. 

 

KJ's best season 

Team Comp Att % Yards Long TD % Ints % Rating

WPG   382  620 61.6 5,334 83 46 7.4 29 4.7 94.5

 

vs. Cavlillo's best seasons

2004 MTL 431 690 62.5 6,041 81 31 4.5 15 2.2 96.6

2008 MTL 472 682 69.2 5,633 81 43 6.3 13 1.9 107.2

 

I still respectfully disagree with the notion that Jones at any point was better than Calvillo.

 

are you going to take into account differences in team make up? Cause you can quite easily argue that those numbers aren't all that different and that Jones never once had an offensive line as good as the ones Calvillo had when he put up his best years. Yes Jones had Milt Stegall, but Calvillo wasn't throwing to useless receivers either and arguably had more depth to use than Jones ever did. You also had Charles Roberts being used quite extensively in that time as well. Is it any coincidence that Calvillo didn't see a real drastic increase in his passing numbers until after Mike Pringle retired? All these things matter, and I did say that in my mind Jones did more with less so when we have numbers that are very much comparable then we start to see how the more with less argument trumps some slight variations in the numbers. 

 

Have to disagree.  Khari had Stegall, Bruce, Robert Gordon, Roberts and Sellers in 2002.  That trumps anything Calvillo had in terms of receiving and rushing talent.  Calvillo's peak is higher than that of Khari's.  Receivers like Richardson were nothing prior to playing with Calvillo whereas guys like Stegall, Gordon and Bruce had great seasons both prior to and after Khari.  Khari was a good QB, but Calvillo is one of the all-time greats.

[blueandgoldguy]

The question is Khari better then Burris? Burris had many more productive years , has a ring and had success with multiple teams while Khari stunk it up elsewhere.

hate to say it, but yeah, Burris is better than Khari.  Burris' poor playoff games throughout his career with a few exceptions would nix any chance he has as one of the top-10 QBs of all-time though as well as his generally inconsistent regular season play.  He is probably hard-pressed to be considered one of the top-20 Qbs of all-time actually.

 

Too bad about Khari's shoulder.  If it wasn't for that, I'm sure he could have played at least 5 or more seasons as a QB and probably be held in the same regard as the Bomber greats like Ploen, Brock and Clements.