AC to retire

[17to85]

Yeah, but the fact that he made it to all those Grey Cups is outstanding.  Just because he didn't win doesn't make him a shitty QB.

When you look at the teams he had to beat to get to those grey cups, yeah it kind of does. When you basically have an automatic bye into the Grey Cup because you might have an easy division getting to the game is less of an accomplishment. I mean every time the Bombers had an above .500 season in the east the Als were not in the Grey Cup. 

[HardCoreBlue]

 

Yeah, but the fact that he made it to all those Grey Cups is outstanding.  Just because he didn't win doesn't make him a shitty QB.

When you look at the teams he had to beat to get to those grey cups, yeah it kind of does. When you basically have an automatic bye into the Grey Cup because you might have an easy division getting to the game is less of an accomplishment. I mean every time the Bombers had an above .500 season in the east the Als were not in the Grey Cup. 

 

You're suggesting AC was 'kind of' a bad QB?  I feel obligated to say this on behalf of anyone (whether I like them or not) who has proven themselves over and over again, that's an extremely ridiculous uninformed statement, it really is. You sound more sour grapes than anything. He's a guaranteed HoF.

[17to85]

 

 

Yeah, but the fact that he made it to all those Grey Cups is outstanding.  Just because he didn't win doesn't make him a shitty QB.

When you look at the teams he had to beat to get to those grey cups, yeah it kind of does. When you basically have an automatic bye into the Grey Cup because you might have an easy division getting to the game is less of an accomplishment. I mean every time the Bombers had an above .500 season in the east the Als were not in the Grey Cup. 

 

You're suggesting AC was 'kind of' a bad QB?  I feel obligated to say this on behalf of anyone (whether I like them or not) who has proven themselves over and over again, that's an extremely ridiculous uninformed statement, it really is. You sound more sour grapes than anything. He's a guaranteed HoF.

 

I'm saying he wasn't as good as the stats suggest because of his lack lustre performance in the big games. Beating up a cream puff division doesn't mean a lot when you can't get the job done when you face a legitimate challenge. 

[iso_55]

When a qb throws for just under 80,000 yards he's had an outstanding career. It's true that for years, the Als played in an weak division but... he still did a helluva job. That being said, AC is in the Top 10, maybe even Top 5 all time CFL qbs but as I posted earlier, Fran Tarkenton was once the NFL all time leading passer until Dan Marino & Warren Moon came along. AC is similar. Great CFL qb but to me not the best... I'd take Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, Tom Clements, Ricky Ray, Matt Dunigan & even Jeff Garcia over him. But hey, the guy really had a great career so let's not take that away from him.

[Fred C Dobbs]

I don't really care about Calvillo's records.

 

What worries me is that now that Montreal is no longer saddled with AC's contract I reckon that they are probably the only team in the league that has more cap space than us. This could make life difficult for us come Feb 15th.

[iso_55]

The Bombers have to spend $$$ to get good players. If they don't we won't. Simple as that. Different regime. Mack's gone so reason for optimism.

[Mr Dee]

Good gravy, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other about AC and his career, but to deny anybody or any team for that matter its due, because they have played against weaker teams, in weaker divisions, would put asterisks on all kinds of performances of individuals and teams.

No, you take the whole picture together, weak teams, strong teams. 

 

Good performances over a period of years and years should be one criteria in determining how well one has performed.

AC has done that and much more.

He deserves the credit he gets.

[johnzo]

When a qb throws for just under 80,000 yards he's had an outstanding career. It's true that for years, the Als played in an weak division but... he still did a helluva job. That being said, AC is in the Top 10, maybe even Top 5 all time CFL qbs but as I posted earlier, Fran Tarkenton was once the NFL all time leading passer until Dan Marino & Warren Moon came along. AC is similar. Great CFL qb but to me not the best... I'd take Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, Tom Clements, Ricky Ray, Matt Dunigan & even Jeff Garcia over him. But hey, the guy really had a great career so let's not take that away from him.

For me, Calvillo is a surefire top 5 guy. it goes Flutie, Ray, Calvillo, with Moon slotting in there somewhere based on reputation. I only really got to see Moon play a couple games in 1983 when the Eskimos were (finally) declining, so I can't say.

I think Ray gets the nod over Calvillo because Calvillo always played on stacked teams in a weak division, so it's tough to tell how big an impact he was really having. Ray made bad teams into mediocre teams, and he made good teams into champions. He's also a great playoff performer, going 3-1 in Grey Cup games.

I think that Dunigan's durability issues takes him out of AC's class. AC was super durable. Dunigan also has a similar Grey Cup record to AC; he was great at winning finals (going to five Grey Cups) but not so great at winning them (he technically won two, but his first, in 1987, was really Damon Allen's victory. Allen was fantastic in that game). I think Dunigan was a more exciting player to watch, by far, but if I had one game to win, I'd chose Calvillo.

Garcia had a nice couple of years in Calgary but I don't think that's enough of a body of work to put him in with the all-time greats.

Clements I don't think is in the same class with those guys -- he had his moments but he doesn't feel like an all-time great to me. Played in the weak East for a long time, and only got to a couple of Grey Cups. He won 'em both, though.

Where does Dieter Brock, the Dan Marino of the CFL, fit into this?

[17to85]

if we're talking straight up qb talent I don't know if Calvillo is a top 5 guy at all. He played for a long long time, that's really all he did that was outstanding. Lots of guys were better but no one other than Allen was able to last that long. 

[HardCoreBlue]

if we're talking straight up qb talent I don't know if Calvillo is a top 5 guy at all. He played for a long long time, that's really all he did that was outstanding. Lots of guys were better but no one other than Allen was able to last that long. 

For the love of God, whatever God you may or may not believe in, please stop.

[17to85]

 

if we're talking straight up qb talent I don't know if Calvillo is a top 5 guy at all. He played for a long long time, that's really all he did that was outstanding. Lots of guys were better but no one other than Allen was able to last that long. 

For the love of God, whatever God you may or may not believe in, please stop.

 

I would much rather all you Blue Bomber fans stop with the jerking off of Anthony Calvillo. 

[rebusrankin]

Flutie and Moon are ahead of him for sure imo. Would personally put Ray and Dunigan ahead. Case can be made for an old timer like Etcheverry. Arguments could be made for Garcia and Dickenson too.

[17to85]

Flutie and Moon are ahead of him for sure imo. Would personally put Ray and Dunigan ahead. Case can be made for an old timer like Etcheverry. Arguments could be made for Garcia and Dickenson too.

in terms of who was better than Calvillo without taking career length into account DIckenson and Garcia are absolutely better. I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

[Noeller]

There is not even a question that Flutie, Moon, Dunigan, Ray, Garcia and Dickenson were all better. Probably some older guys, too. Calvillo did some good things because of a superhuman supporting cast, but he's massively overrated.

[iso_55]

 

When a qb throws for just under 80,000 yards he's had an outstanding career. It's true that for years, the Als played in an weak division but... he still did a helluva job. That being said, AC is in the Top 10, maybe even Top 5 all time CFL qbs but as I posted earlier, Fran Tarkenton was once the NFL all time leading passer until Dan Marino & Warren Moon came along. AC is similar. Great CFL qb but to me not the best... I'd take Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, Tom Clements, Ricky Ray, Matt Dunigan & even Jeff Garcia over him. But hey, the guy really had a great career so let's not take that away from him.

For me, Calvillo is a surefire top 5 guy. it goes Flutie, Ray, Calvillo, with Moon slotting in there somewhere based on reputation. I only really got to see Moon play a couple games in 1983 when the Eskimos were (finally) declining, so I can't say.

I think Ray gets the nod over Calvillo because Calvillo always played on stacked teams in a weak division, so it's tough to tell how big an impact he was really having. Ray made bad teams into mediocre teams, and he made good teams into champions. He's also a great playoff performer, going 3-1 in Grey Cup games.

I think that Dunigan's durability issues takes him out of AC's class. AC was super durable. Dunigan also has a similar Grey Cup record to AC; he was great at winning finals (going to five Grey Cups) but not so great at winning them (he technically won two, but his first, in 1987, was really Damon Allen's victory. Allen was fantastic in that game). I think Dunigan was a more exciting player to watch, by far, but if I had one game to win, I'd chose Calvillo.

Garcia had a nice couple of years in Calgary but I don't think that's enough of a body of work to put him in with the all-time greats.

Clements I don't think is in the same class with those guys -- he had his moments but he doesn't feel like an all-time great to me. Played in the weak East for a long time, and only got to a couple of Grey Cups. He won 'em both, though.

Where does Dieter Brock, the Dan Marino of the CFL, fit into this?

 

All good points but let's deal with your question about Brock & Marino first. Both those guys never won a championship. Both went to one in their respective leagues & are arguably Top 10 but because they never won a Grey Cup & a Super Bowl but can't break into that elite Top 5. Brock may not even be a CFL Top 10 in qb my opinion sliding in 11-15. . He needed a Grey Cup to do that. 

When Tom Clements broke into the CFL in 1975 the East was strong with Ottawa & Montreal dominating. He won a GC with Ottawa in 1976 beating a veteran laden Saskatchewan Roughriders team. Clements came to a strong West Division in 1983 with the Bombers after bouncing around with the Riders for a disastrous half season in 1980 after being cut in Kansas City the year before. Clements  was traded to Hamilton during the 1980 season after which he led the Ti Cats to a first place finish in 1981. The Esks with Warren Moon, the Lions with Roy Dewalt & the Bombers trading Brock to Hamilton for Clements all were GC winning capable teams. So, I'd say for the majority of his career, Tom played on some strong teams in the stronger division. To me, he's Top 5.

Speaking of Moon, he led the Esks to 2 Grey Cups out of the 5 straight they played from 1978 to 1982. Athletic & a gun for an arm. Definetly Top 5! Johnzo he was as good as you've heard & read. 

Another Esskimo great who definetly is in the Top 5 was Jackie Parker. As great as he was at qb, he could alsoplay receiver, running back & defensive back just as well. Probably the greatest pure athlete to ever play in the CFL, he definetly is a Top 5 CFL qb having led the Esks to 3 straight GC's in 1954, 55 & 56.

Jeff Garcia's time in the CFL was short but he was a fiery leader much like Matt Dunigan. He threw for over 500 yards & 6 touchdowns in his first start ever Labour Day 1995 vs the Eskimos & led the Stamps to the GC in 1998. His 3 1/2 year body of work as a starter in the CFL & his corresponding play in the NFL for a decade & a half tells me he would have been one of the greats up here had he stayed. Because he only played such a short time as a starter, he's Top15, not Top 5. 

Flutie? His record speaks for  himself. Greatest qb who ever played up here. And seven seasons is a long enough body of work to judge. He deserved every accolade he got playing in the CFL.

You have to put Matt Dunigan in the Top 5 easily. Won 2 Grey Cups, had that phenomenal record setting passing day chucking for over 700 yards & as fiery a leader as I've ever seen. The man was simply great.

Calvillo, he quietly went about his business & became the CFL passing leader. he had many, many great performances but to me, all time leading passer he definetly a Top 15 guy but I can't see him Top 10.

So, my Top 15 CFL qbs in order from 1-15. Feel free to  debate my choices

 

Top  5 qbs from 1-5

 

Flutie

Moon

Clements

Dunigan

Parker

 

 

Top 10 from 6-10 as follows:

 

Ploen

Ray

Lancaster

Jackson

Zuger

 

 

Top 15 from 11-15 as follows:

 

Calvillo

Allen

Garcia

Kapp

Faloney

[Zontar]

 

 

 

 

Say good bye to the most boring superstar on the most boring dynasty in memory. All that was missing was equally boring Cahoon to put everyone to sleep.

Too bad - league could have really marketed a record setting QB on a great team if they posessed a detectable personality.

I would take their boring wins and Grey Cups over the ****-show in Hamilton any day.

Yup. And I mean, what class by those ticats when they jumped into the boat in our old stadium. It was as if ron burgandy himself was celebrating..

 

Fixed.

Fine. By that same token, AC's gazillion other examples of sportsmanship and excellent team player attitude should outweigh a half season of sour puss attitude..

 

Never said he was a bad person. Point was its too bad he came off like a damp squib in public when the CFL could have used just a little personality, a bit of flash  to market and get non CFL diehards interested in watching.

 

If it wasnt for the odd chest thumping of Stewart and the odd dirty play of Sanchez and Cox you'd have to check those Als teams for a pulse.

[sweep the leg]

 

 

if we're talking straight up qb talent I don't know if Calvillo is a top 5 guy at all. He played for a long long time, that's really all he did that was outstanding. Lots of guys were better but no one other than Allen was able to last that long. 

For the love of God, whatever God you may or may not believe in, please stop.

 

I would much rather all you Blue Bomber fans stop with the jerking off of Anthony Calvillo. 

 

The guy put up over 5,500 yards 4 times. He's nothing like Allen, who averaged around 3,500 yards/yr, but did it over 20 years.

 

edit: I originally called your comment stupid, but I take it back. Name calling is mean...

[Brandon]

 

Flutie and Moon are ahead of him for sure imo. Would personally put Ray and Dunigan ahead. Case can be made for an old timer like Etcheverry. Arguments could be made for Garcia and Dickenson too.

in terms of who was better than Calvillo without taking career length into account DIckenson and Garcia are absolutely better. I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

 

 

This is always a great topic of debate,   the Art Monk debate of a guy who played above average for a long period of time vs a guy like Jim Brown who simply was lights-out outstanding for a short period of time. 

 

I think Calvillo is a great qb and definitely a HOF in the CFL and a guy who was really good.  But it's so hard to back his case as the best since he had very poor showings when his team wasn't surrounded by all star players.   Ricky Ray put up gawdy numbers despite having crap like Kamau Peterson.....        

 

I'd agree that Calvillo isn't the top dog,    I don't think he's bad... he's in a class right next to Danny McManus and Damon Allen who are great but not the all time greats.   

[gbill2004]

Where does Collaros rank on this list?

[NotoriousBIG]

if we're talking straight up qb talent I don't know if Calvillo is a top 5 guy at all. He played for a long long time, that's really all he did that was outstanding. Lots of guys were better but no one other than Allen was able to last that long. 

 

....and the reason he was able to play as long as he did was because he was very good.

 

You think Popp kept him around because he was affordable? Uh, no. 400K a year. 

 

He did great in that system and as a result they were an excellent, consistent franchise.

[Mike]

Where does Collaros rank on this list?

 

What number is above first?

[Guest]

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

[blueandgoldguy]

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

KJ's peak as good as Calvillo.ha.  Now I've heard everything.

 

Calvillo had several seasons that were better than KJ's best so that argument doesn't hold water.

 

Flip Calvillo's 3-5 Grey Cup record around to 5-3 with improved performances in the dreadful 2006 (was at this game and Calvillo was mediocre) and 2008 games and he has a shot at the top-3 all-time

 

1.  Flutie - 6 MVPs in 8 seasons and 3 Grey Cup victories and 5 trips to the big game.

2.  Parker - 3 MVPs and 3 Grey Cups. Excellent scrambler on top of being a good passing QB for the time.

3.  Moon - I was actually thinking of dropping him down the list, even with the 5 Grey Cups and 1 MVP.  Seem to remember reading stories or some box scores that suggest he wasn't all that great in the playoffs.  Think there was one game where he was relieved by Wilkinson in a playoff game (GreyCup?) because he was playing for poorly.  Wilkinson helped the team win that Grey Cup, not sure what year though.  Someone can correct me if that's wrong.  Small sample size and he was only the starter for half his time in the CFL.  Still, he was so dominant in the regular season that it's had to rank him any lower

4.  Jackson - tempted to put him at 3.  3-time MVP and 3-time Grey Cup winner. 3-1 in the Grey Cup.  9-5 as a starter in the playoffs.  Only a full-time starter for 7 seasons once Lancaster left for Sask yet he accomplished all this.  91 QB rating which is absolutely incredible for the 60s.  Excellent runner with over 5,000 yeards rushing. 

 

I'd rank Calvillo just behind these guys at 5.

 

Dunigan  - doesn't belong in the conversation.  Never won an MVP award.  3-time CFL all-star which is good though.  Put up some good regular season numbers but he was pretty average in the playoffs and below average in Grey Cup games (1-2 record).  Played like crap in 87 Grey Cup before injury, played decent in 88' Grey Cup and played OK in 91 Grey Cup in brutal conditions and played like crap for the Bombers in 92 Grey Cup.  Injuries played a role in his career, but the playoff resume and lack of MVPs means he should not be a top-5 QB of all-time.

 

Garcia while putting up some very respectable numbers certainly doesn't stand out as much as Moon did in a similar shortened CFL career.  1 Grey Cup. 1 CFL all-star. The fact that the Stamps had the same record in 1999 upon Garcia's departure and still made it to the Grey Cup suggests that the team surrounding him was quite good and may have very well enhanced his stats.  Bottom line - not quite a large enough resume and didn't stand out enough during his brief tenure.  IF we were to include him as a top-5, we would have to consider Dave Dickenson as well. 

 

Lancaster - accumulater with a decent but hardly outstanding QB rating.  13-13 playoff record which is actually quite good but the 1-4 Grey Cup record would have to be held against him especially when you consider some of those performances.  2 MVPs and a runner-up.  CFL all-star 4 or 5 times.  Great career, but the lack of MVPs and truly oustanding seasons precludes him from the top-5 conversation.

 

Clements - 1 MVP, 2 CFl all-stars, top- 10 in several QB categories, several divisional all-stars.  He was very good, but when you compare his stats to some of his peers at the time, he rarely comes out on top.  Also, while he was 2-0 in Grey Cups (assistance on the first one with Holloway) his playoff record is pretty unimpressive (sub .500 with several disappointing performances).  I remember as a kid, watching his last game at Winnipeg Stadium in the 1987 Eastern Finals.  Scored a grand total of 2 points on offense.  Brutal way to end your CFL career.  Same with Reeves as well.  Good argument for top-10, but regular season stats combined with middling playoff performances aren't worthy of top-5.

 

Allen - another accumulator, more so than Lancaster though.  Many OK to good seasons.  Few great seasons.  Only 1 MVP and 1 CFL all-star in a career that spans over 2 decades.  Impressive longevity and arguably the best scrambler and running QB in CFL history - over 10,000 yards rushing.  That and his 3-0 record and 3 Grey Cup MVPs puts him in the conversation for top-5 but ultimately the lack of regular season success pushes him down the list.  I mean really, other than one season, 2005, can anyone say he was the best player in the CFL?  Answer that question and you will know why he would not be considered top-5.

 

Ray could be in the running in the future.  Needs a few MVPs, a few more oustanding seasons and some more CFL all-star nods.

[17to85]

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

I'm not talking overall career I'm talking peak. That 2002 season was something special I think people have forgotten about it. 46 td passes is an unreal number. The difference of course is that Jones got his shoulder messed up real quick and he didn't last long. Durability is a nice thing for an overall career but if we're just looking at guys in their peak then yes I put Jones up there even if his peak was only a few years. 

[Guest]

 

 

 I'd argue for Khari Jones being above Calvillo for a peak as well just because of what Khari did without ever having a good offensive line like the ones Montreal had. That's just taking into account guys from "recently" Obviously the lengthy career counts for something, but the dude is highly over rated just because he played for ever. Similar to Damon Allen. 

KJ was good 'n all, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Allen or Calvillo, while I'm not the biggest fan of either they were consistently good for a long while. Jones maybe got 4 years where he was playing relatively well ?

 

I'm not talking overall career I'm talking peak. That 2002 season was something special I think people have forgotten about it. 46 td passes is an unreal number. The difference of course is that Jones got his shoulder messed up real quick and he didn't last long. Durability is a nice thing for an overall career but if we're just looking at guys in their peak then yes I put Jones up there even if his peak was only a few years. 

 

KJ's best season 

Team Comp Att % Yards Long TD % Ints % Rating

WPG   382  620 61.6 5,334 83 46 7.4 29 4.7 94.5

 

vs. Cavlillo's best seasons

2004 MTL 431 690 62.5 6,041 81 31 4.5 15 2.2 96.6

2008 MTL 472 682 69.2 5,633 81 43 6.3 13 1.9 107.2

 

I still respectfully disagree with the notion that Jones at any point was better than Calvillo.