This is not a new thought, but this team needs to start developing it's own players ...

[sweep the leg]

We have the worst fans in the league, bar none, for restlessness and complaining. No question, they've caused the club to do some really stupid things because they have zero patience for a true rebuild.

No kidding. No other fanbase has been forced to endure the brutality we've seen over the last two+ decades. Other fanbases don't have as much to complain about as we do.

 

Again, we're not hiring the right people if they let fan complaints dictate personnel moves. Get somebody with a good plan and a set of balls who can make a plan & stick to it & maybe the fans will have less to complain about.

[TBURGESS]

It's not the fans or the media's fault that the Bombers are a crappy team.  Place the blame where it belongs... on the management and BOD.  

 

Patience has nothing to do with it.  Every year we need to build a competitive team that makes it to the playoffs.  The draft is the time to do the 2 or 3 years down the road planning.  Other than that it's about doing the right things to win right now.  

 

Want to develop a QB?  Don't give him playing time, make him earn it.  Make him beat the incumbent to get the job.  The coaches should be the first to know when it's time for the vet QB to lose his starting spot and the fans or media opinions means squat.

 

It doesn't matter if we develop our own QB or if we get them from other teams.  What matters is that we have a good QB who lead the team.  The same holds true for every player and every coach.  

 

Our management needs to become way more aggressive. This year we have totally new management yet we have the same old problem.  We target players we don't sign, then we make the same lame excuse... "They wanted to be closer to family:  We are asked to ignore the facts that we have the worst team in the league, thats rebuilding from scratch yet again, with a rookie management team and a head coach who hasn't even been a DC or OC at any level, yet alone an HC.  In short, we have the worst available jobs in the league right now so of course players with options want to be somewhere else, but that doesn't mean we don't have a shot at them.

 

We can sign free agents if we pay them enough to overcome the fact that we have a horrible team.  We can't sign them if we send out 'competitive' offers then wait by the phone to see if they want to negotiate with us.  It's going to take 'overpaying' until we become a competitive team for a few years in a row and I couldn't care less if we go over the SMS limit as long as we don't go so far over that we lose our 1st round draft pick.

 

It's simple... We need to stop losing out on players and coaches in the off season or else we will continue losing in the season.

[Guest]

Wasn't it Mack's plan to completely develop our own talent ?

How'd that end up ?

 

There's so much more to it when building a team, you should always try to develop your own talent obviously, but bringing in other teams veterans, making trades etc, is a big part of pro sports. You build your core then tweak it as you go, yet should never overlook bringing in other CFL guys.

[blueandgoldguy]

 

We have the worst fans in the league, bar none, for restlessness and complaining. No question, they've caused the club to do some really stupid things because they have zero patience for a true rebuild.

No kidding. No other fanbase has been forced to endure the brutality we've seen over the last two+ decades. Other fanbases don't have as much to complain about as we do.

 

Again, we're not hiring the right people if they let fan complaints dictate personnel moves. Get somebody with a good plan and a set of balls who can make a plan & stick to it & maybe the fans will have less to complain about.

 

 

Ah yes.  Two posters taking opinions out of their butts and presenting them as facts.  What evidence do you have that that the fans here are the worst in the league?  Do you actually take the time out to look at how other fans treat there teams..and I don't mean watching a game here or there on TSN and looking and listening to the crowd on TSN and basing your judgement on that.  I mean really looking - visiting fan forums, reading newspaper articles written in that city about the team, being at that team's games to the get the pulse of the fans.  Somehow I doubt it.  

 

What stupid things have the fans caused the Bombers to do??  Please tell me.  Fire Doug Berry?  No, because he had lost the locker room.  The players were tuning him and his ridiculous out-of-control sideline rants out.  The fact he hasn't been hired as a head coach since and has lost two jobs as OC proves the Bombers made the right decision.  Fire Mike Kelly?  Ha!  Guy who was fired because of his lack of professionalism both on and off the field, his callous disregard for our free agents and draft picks, his poor handling of the QB position.  Getting into a fight with his girlfriend was the last straw.  Firing Joe Mack?  A guy who hadn't been with a CFL organization for nearly 25 years and we were foolishly led to believe would turn this franchise around.  A guy whose only saving grace with the Bombers was bringing in decent import talent from the US, and really no better than the average Gm in the CFL at that when you think about it.  Our O-line was crap when he came, crap when he was fired; our Canadian content was crap when he came and only slightly less afterwards (still worst in the league) and our Qbs were crap when he came and still crap when he left (Hall is a decent backup who can start the occasional game).  Joe Mack was the Ol Gill of the CFL - couldn't sell the good players on the Bomber organization if he tried - see Brendan Labatte, Greg Carr and Mike Reilly.

 

Were the release of Brink or Elliott on the fans' lack of patience?  Consider this - no one picked up Brink and kept him on a roster for very long.  Joey Elliott had to pay his way to BC for a tryout and was released a few games into the season only to be picked up again because of injuries to two of their QBs.  He might be back as a third stringer only due to circumstances.  Wally's criticisms of Elliott was pretty damning.  So it doesn't seem like any of the managers and coaches in the league think too highly of our ex-Qbs otherwise they would be kept on some CFL teams and groomed to at least be a semi-competent backup.  Geez maybe that's the reason these QBs were released by the Bombers - not due to fan pressure to see immediate results, but because their talent level and/or their abilities to take instruction and handle pressure are not at a level needed to be a starting or even backup QB.  I would apply this label to Goltz as well.

 

The only reason the media and fans appear harder on this team than other cities (and that's debatable) is due to the 23 year Grey Cup drought.  HOw incompetent can a franchise be to not win one Grey Cup in a 23 years in a 8 team league?  The last ten years have been especially embarrassing - something like a .350 winning percentage.  Those results rest on the BOD making questionable hires over the past decade and a half and in turn, the management they hire making questionable coaching hires themselves.  Jeff Reinbold, Mike Kelly, Joe Mack, Tim Burke, Creehan.  These guys were truly terrible at their jobs and yet the blame lies at the feet of the fans?  More like the blame lies at the feet of the organization, the managers and coaches hired, and the crap talent brought in at most positions to compete. 

 

So please provide me with some specific examples as to how our fans have prevented us from going into a true rebuild?  Because this is a 9-team league where all the GMs have access to the same pool of players (the majority of CFL teams are American) from down south deemed unsuitable or lacking the talent to make the cut in the NFL.  Rebuilding or rather reloading is something that should only take a year or two at most.  This isn't the NBA, NHL, MLB or the NFL - rebuilds in the CFL do not require 3 - 5 years..at least they don't if upper management hires a GM and coach who are capable of bringing in adequate talent, something that Joe Mack was unable to do. It certainly is not the fans fault that he couldn't identify and sign the proper talent.

[blueandgoldguy]

I love how people blame the Bombers' woes on the fans.  There is no truth to the idea that the fans lack of patience force the BOD to get rid of Mack or force the coaches to get rid Brink and Elliott, but let's say it was true.  And let's say the fans did show "patience" as some of you posters like to put it - does that mean Mack and Brink and Elliott would suddenly figure it out after another 2 or 3 years?

 

Incompetence is incompetence and lack of talent and/or poor decision/making is something that cannot just all of a sudden be overcome after 3-4 years.  "Patience" as you put it won't allow those characteristics to just sort themselves out over time.

[Mr Dee]

Don't mind me, I'm just waiting for…Rant part 3

[sweep the leg]

I appreciate the hours you must have put into those rants, but you should have noticed that we were disagreeing, not agreeing, on how our problems are b/c of the fans. It's odd, with all the research you apparently do, that you didn't notice that.

[HardCoreBlue]

 

 

We have the worst fans in the league, bar none, for restlessness and complaining. No question, they've caused the club to do some really stupid things because they have zero patience for a true rebuild.

No kidding. No other fanbase has been forced to endure the brutality we've seen over the last two+ decades. Other fanbases don't have as much to complain about as we do.

 

Again, we're not hiring the right people if they let fan complaints dictate personnel moves. Get somebody with a good plan and a set of balls who can make a plan & stick to it & maybe the fans will have less to complain about.

 

 

Ah yes.  Two posters taking opinions out of their butts and presenting them as facts.  What evidence do you have that that the fans here are the worst in the league?  Do you actually take the time out to look at how other fans treat there teams..and I don't mean watching a game here or there on TSN and looking and listening to the crowd on TSN and basing your judgement on that.  I mean really looking - visiting fan forums, reading newspaper articles written in that city about the team, being at that team's games to the get the pulse of the fans.  Somehow I doubt it.  

 

What stupid things have the fans caused the Bombers to do??  Please tell me.  Fire Doug Berry?  No, because he had lost the locker room.  The players were tuning him and his ridiculous out-of-control sideline rants out.  The fact he hasn't been hired as a head coach since and has lost two jobs as OC proves the Bombers made the right decision.  Fire Mike Kelly?  Ha!  Guy who was fired because of his lack of professionalism both on and off the field, his callous disregard for our free agents and draft picks, his poor handling of the QB position.  Getting into a fight with his girlfriend was the last straw.  Firing Joe Mack?  A guy who hadn't been with a CFL organization for nearly 25 years and we were foolishly led to believe would turn this franchise around.  A guy whose only saving grace with the Bombers was bringing in decent import talent from the US, and really no better than the average Gm in the CFL at that when you think about it.  Our O-line was crap when he came, crap when he was fired; our Canadian content was crap when he came and only slightly less afterwards (still worst in the league) and our Qbs were crap when he came and still crap when he left (Hall is a decent backup who can start the occasional game).  Joe Mack was the Ol Gill of the CFL - couldn't sell the good players on the Bomber organization if he tried - see Brendan Labatte, Greg Carr and Mike Reilly.

 

Were the release of Brink or Elliott on the fans' lack of patience?  Consider this - no one picked up Brink and kept him on a roster for very long.  Joey Elliott had to pay his way to BC for a tryout and was released a few games into the season only to be picked up again because of injuries to two of their QBs.  He might be back as a third stringer only due to circumstances.  Wally's criticisms of Elliott was pretty damning.  So it doesn't seem like any of the managers and coaches in the league think too highly of our ex-Qbs otherwise they would be kept on some CFL teams and groomed to at least be a semi-competent backup.  Geez maybe that's the reason these QBs were released by the Bombers - not due to fan pressure to see immediate results, but because their talent level and/or their abilities to take instruction and handle pressure are not at a level needed to be a starting or even backup QB.  I would apply this label to Goltz as well.

 

The only reason the media and fans appear harder on this team than other cities (and that's debatable) is due to the 23 year Grey Cup drought.  HOw incompetent can a franchise be to not win one Grey Cup in a 23 years in a 8 team league?  The last ten years have been especially embarrassing - something like a .350 winning percentage.  Those results rest on the BOD making questionable hires over the past decade and a half and in turn, the management they hire making questionable coaching hires themselves.  Jeff Reinbold, Mike Kelly, Joe Mack, Tim Burke, Creehan.  These guys were truly terrible at their jobs and yet the blame lies at the feet of the fans?  More like the blame lies at the feet of the organization, the managers and coaches hired, and the crap talent brought in at most positions to compete. 

 

So please provide me with some specific examples as to how our fans have prevented us from going into a true rebuild?  Because this is a 9-team league where all the GMs have access to the same pool of players (the majority of CFL teams are American) from down south deemed unsuitable or lacking the talent to make the cut in the NFL.  Rebuilding or rather reloading is something that should only take a year or two at most.  This isn't the NBA, NHL, MLB or the NFL - rebuilds in the CFL do not require 3 - 5 years..at least they don't if upper management hires a GM and coach who are capable of bringing in adequate talent, something that Joe Mack was unable to do. It certainly is not the fans fault that he couldn't identify and sign the proper talent.

 

Testify!

[17to85]

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

[iso_55]

We haven't won a GC since 1990 & it looks like the next one is light years away. I thought the first drought of 22 years (1962-84) was long, well this drought may go on for another decade the way things are going down with this team. Fans have a right to be impatient. Is the Bomber fanbase influencing personnel & coaching decisions? Sure, but that would happen with any team, in any city (in any pro sport) that has as bad an organization as we do. The Bombers themselves, thanks  to the BODs with bad management & coaching hires did this to themselves. None of this is on the fans.

[TBURGESS]

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

[Mr Dee]

As far as I know boos can be heard in the board room also, and I'm told that Board members are human, ergo, (not Argo Bluto) ergo, they are bound to absorb some of the angst and react accordingly.

Maybe this time, with all the recent hires, starting with Miller, we're getting it right.

[17to85]

 

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

 

it is lack of patience. They have fired good people who may not have been great but good people at the first slip up and blown it all up time and time again. How can you build anything doing that? Have to give people more than 2 or 3 seasons to establish a long term foundation and THEN judge where the team is at. 

[rebusrankin]

We have the worst fans in the league, bar none, for restlessness and complaining. No question, they've caused the club to do some really stupid things because they have zero patience for a true rebuild.

Saskatchewan says hello.

[iso_55]

 

 

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

 

it is lack of patience. They have fired good people who may not have been great but good people at the first slip up and blown it all up time and time again. How can you build anything doing that? Have to give people more than 2 or 3 seasons to establish a long term foundation and THEN judge where the team is at. 

 

Mack, good people? Kelly, good people? Buchko, good people? I'd include Burke  in that group even though as a DC he is one of the best but as a HC he is definetly not good people. You're argument is to keep bad people in place making bad decisions just so as to not make a change. Joe Mack got 3 1/2 seasons to do his work & he buried this team. 

[Brandon]

Well *if* they sign Burris it would be the first time since like 2009 that they signed a qb with any sort of cfl success.

Mack failed bigtime at doing that. Same goes for having a cfl coordinator with experience....

If we had any sort of qbing and offense Mack and Burke / Lapo would still be here

[17to85]

Well *if* they sign Burris it would be the first time since like 2009 that they signed a qb with any sort of cfl success.

Mack failed bigtime at doing that. Same goes for having a cfl coordinator with experience....

If we had any sort of qbing and offense Mack and Burke / Lapo would still be here

In Macks first year he signed the 2 biggest experienced FA qbs on the market, not much difference than Walters trying to sign the biggest name on the market now. Not Macks fault that the guys hitting the market at that point weren't all that good or durable. We'll see how old man Burris holds up long term. 

[17to85]

 

 

 

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

 

it is lack of patience. They have fired good people who may not have been great but good people at the first slip up and blown it all up time and time again. How can you build anything doing that? Have to give people more than 2 or 3 seasons to establish a long term foundation and THEN judge where the team is at. 

 

Mack, good people? Kelly, good people? Buchko, good people? I'd include Burke  in that group even though as a DC he is one of the best but as a HC he is definetly not good people. You're argument is to keep bad people in place making bad decisions just so as to not make a change. Joe Mack got 3 1/2 seasons to do his work & he buried this team. 

 

Left out a few names there I see.... Is that because it is harmful to your argument and beneficial to mine?

[iso_55]

 

 

 

 

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

 

it is lack of patience. They have fired good people who may not have been great but good people at the first slip up and blown it all up time and time again. How can you build anything doing that? Have to give people more than 2 or 3 seasons to establish a long term foundation and THEN judge where the team is at. 

 

Mack, good people? Kelly, good people? Buchko, good people? I'd include Burke  in that group even though as a DC he is one of the best but as a HC he is definetly not good people. You're argument is to keep bad people in place making bad decisions just so as to not make a change. Joe Mack got 3 1/2 seasons to do his work & he buried this team. 

 

Left out a few names there I see.... Is that because it is harmful to your argument and beneficial to mine?

 

Nope. But these guys were bad enough... They did more than enough damage to send the team back to the CFL Stone Age. 

[TBURGESS]

 

 

you think the BOD doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of the fans and know when the natives are getting restless? Some might argue that the BOD are just fans themselves anyway... There's been a lot of knee jerk reactions made in the last 2 decades and it is tied to with how the fan base is feeling. That 23 year drought is self perpetuating because no one has the patience and it's caused a lot of stupid decisions to be made. 

It's not lack of patience it's consistently bad hires.  In fact, I'd argue we don't fire folks who aren't doing their jobs like Mack soon enough.  

 

it is lack of patience. They have fired good people who may not have been great but good people at the first slip up and blown it all up time and time again. How can you build anything doing that? Have to give people more than 2 or 3 seasons to establish a long term foundation and THEN judge where the team is at. 

 

Who are these 'good people' you're talking about?  The only one they fired that I didn't think deserve it was Berry and that wasn't about the fans or the media, it was about Bauer installing 'He who must not be named' as our HC and kinda GM.  

 

There is no need to give people 2 or 3 seasons to see if they can turn a chicken **** into chicken salad.  If they aren't moving in the right direction, pull the plug and move on.  Again... it's about making terrible hiring decisions, which has nothing to do with patience. 

[Mr Dee]

Pull the plug and move on….

 

Yeah, that'll attract a solid core of applicants.

[iso_55]

Have there been good people let go, yes. Bauer getting rid of Dave Ritchie, for one. Bauer firing Doug Berry, another... But what does that come down to? Bad people running the show making bad decisions. I'd argue that when Lyle Bauer took over the Bombers in 1999 he did a great job for a number of years but as time went on the team became his little fiefdom as he got more & more powerful. Firing Berry & replacing him with the miserable & paranoid Mike Kelly showed he shouldn't have been running the team as long as he did. Then The BOG's let Bauer resign when he knew he was going to be fired & hired Joe Mack. He could have had Glenn last season but balked on the trade from the Stamps instead relying on a wounded duck of a qb in Pierce which killed this team. Why should Mack have been given more time? He had his chance. .

[TBURGESS]

Pull the plug and move on….

 

Yeah, that'll attract a solid core of applicants.

It will attract more solid applicants than retaining folks who suck at their job, thereby creating an atmosphere of failure.  No one wants to come into that.

[Mr Dee]

"It will attract more solid applicants than retaining folks who suck at their job, thereby creating an atmosphere of failure.  No one wants to come into that."

 

It will not attract solid applicants if you're flipping through the rolodex while they're in the same room.

The atmosphere of failure stems from not hiring the right people, not from giving them too much time.

 

And who makes the decision to pull the plug and move on? A majority of the fan vote?

 

You have to trust your hire and let them do the things you hired them for.

Surely, during the interview you have an idea of the depth of the plan of the person you're hiring and the state of the team at the time.

To give them only 2 seasons is absurd.

 

For example, the last time, the big mistake was the hiring of Buchko.

Someone who knew football better wouldn't have let that Crowton-Buck plan grow to fruition.

Consequence? Loss of another season.

 

Hire the right people is an easy suggestion but harder in reality.

 

[TBURGESS]

 

"It will attract more solid applicants than retaining folks who suck at their job, thereby creating an atmosphere of failure.  No one wants to come into that."

 

It will not attract solid applicants if you're flipping through the rolodex while they're in the same room.

The atmosphere of failure stems from not hiring the right people, not from giving them too much time.

 

And who makes the decision to pull the plug and move on? A majority of the fan vote?

 

You have to trust your hire and let them do the things you hired them for.

Surely, during the interview you have an idea of the depth of the plan of the person you're hiring and the state of the team at the time.

To give them only 2 seasons is absurd.

 

For example, the last time, the big mistake was the hiring of Buchko.

Someone who knew football better wouldn't have let that Crowton-Buck plan grow to fruition.

Consequence? Loss of another season.

 

Hire the right people is an easy suggestion but harder in reality.

 

 

Flipping through a rolodex while applicants are in the room? LOL.  Talk about overreaching.

 

Hiring the wrong folks is the crux of the problem.

 

Trust is earned not given.  If you make a bad hire, you need to fix your mistake as soon as possible, not wait for a few years while hoping it gets better.  Giving people a couple or a few years without rating their performance is absurd.

 

Of course it's not a fan poll to fire anyone.  It's the GM's job to decide if his HC is worthy of another season at the end of each and every year.  It's the HC's job to decide on the coaches at the end of each and every year and on the players each and every week.  Everyone has a boss who decides if they are worthy of another year or week or day on the job.

 

Berry came in turned us around and got us into the playoffs the first year he was HC.  That's what the expectation should be for every HC we hire.  If they don't make it, then we need to make the decision if they are on the right track and if they deserve another year.  If the GM thinks they are then they get another year.  If not, we thank them for their time and effort and wish them well in their future endeavours.  The same thing continues down the line to every coach and player.

 

GM's may not be able to prove they are on the right track in a year, but they can certainly prove they are on the wrong track that quickly.  Mack had a good first year and bad years from then on.  Keeping him after the 2012 season just threw away a year we didn't have to.  A bad decision in a long line of them IMHO.

 

Hiring good people starts with hiring folks who have proven they can do the job or at the very least folks moving up 1 rung on the ladder.  Sure it costs more, but consistently hiring people who've never done the job will generally result in the same thing... rehiring new people sooner rather than later.   That is liable to cost even more in the long run.  Hiring a guy like Buchko who was basically a CJOB sales guy was an idiotic decision.  I've got no idea why anyone thought it was a good idea.  It's this kind of decision that has defined the Bombers in the last decade or more.