Questions Around The League

[RagingIce]

Yea, Toronto was gifted with the worst trade since Gretzky, and probably the worst trade in CFL history - I don't think people should be singing his praises.

[bluto]

Here's something to keep in mind... there were rumours that if Kelly had stuck for a 2nd year he might have gone and got Ray... but the cost would have been starting with Doug Brown... 

 

a supposition, based on a possibility and dependent on a contingency... seems rock solid, legit.  

[17to85]

a supposition, based on a possibility and dependent on a contingency... seems rock solid, legit.  

Hey it's something that seems to fit. We know that Brown didn't like Kelly and Kelly has come out and said that he viewed Brown as a problem player and that he would have got rid of him if he had got a year 2, we know that Kelly was desperately trying anything at the qb position except patience. He had ties to Edmonton already having coached their prior to Winnipeg. Tillman came in at the right time and his tendencies are known. 

 

It's really not a far fetched scenario. No more so than Ray going to Toronto for scraps. 

[Floyd]

Nice thread.

 

I would say the East is totally open and its actually too bad that we have so many potential achilles heels this year...  we really could be last or first if even one of our QBs steps up.

 

Montreal - Wholesale changes with aging QB and some key D, probably growing pains but at least Reinbold experiment is over

Hamilton - new D - big questions on offence and defence, likely depends on Burris racking up the score again, Austin is still a rookie coach in CFL

Toronto - offence in tact but D is completely blown up, Jones has shown he can do it though...

Winnipeg - Buck and the newbies, very suspect NI depth, Creehan is the big question mark, season depends on Simpson and Renaud/Palardy performing

 

BC, Calgary, Sask - some changes but not too much, all three look strong and look like they have improved weak areas

Edmonton - all on Reilly, defence should be good, NI receivers need a strong year

 

So, yeah, right now I would say we are playing for the chance to get destroyed in the crossover game... but who knows, anything can happen.

[17to85]

Nice thread.

 

I would say the East is totally open and its actually too bad that we have so many potential achilles heels this year...  we really could be last or first if even one of our QBs steps up.

 

Montreal - Wholesale changes with aging QB and some key D, probably growing pains but at least Reinbold experiment is over

Hamilton - new D - big questions on offence and defence, likely depends on Burris racking up the score again, Austin is still a rookie coach in CFL

Toronto - offence in tact but D is completely blown up, Jones has shown he can do it though...

Winnipeg - Buck and the newbies, very suspect NI depth, Creehan is the big question mark, season depends on Simpson and Renaud/Palardy performing

 

BC, Calgary, Sask - some changes but not too much, all three look strong and look like they have improved weak areas

Edmonton - all on Reilly, defence should be good, NI receivers need a strong year

 

So, yeah, right now I would say we are playing for the chance to get destroyed in the crossover game... but who knows, anything can happen.

Disagree with the suspect NI depth. I think the depth is fine. The question is whether or not the top end of the NI roster is good enough. The potential is there, it's whether they play like it. 

[RagingIce]

Our NI depth is the best it's been since before the Taman days...

[pigseye]

I would be completely blown away if Montreal was anything but dysfunctional this early in the year. Even the oline has a new coach who is trying to install a new blocking scheme for them.

[saskbluefan]

Bolded part is pretty much true. but it isn't because of his "hard-line" negotiating. It's because he's seen as a tool who thinks his s#@t doesn't stink.

 

As to the other bit about you and Mike thinking the Bombers are strong everywhere except QB (i guess a long offseason makes painful memories easy to forget), i disagree vehemently... but won't bother getting into it since starting in a few days one or the other of us will have our case made for us.

 

 

I don't know Bluto.  Last time Buck Pierce played a full game the Bombers whipped on the Argos in their own barn.  Since we're talking about shaky memories after a long off-season and all.  

 

Now you might say, "it was Ricky's first game back" or "we weren't playing well then" but at least from my perspective (I won't speak for Mike) that's the point.  With decent QBing (i.e. semi-healthy Buck) we can beat teams who are less than their best.  Meaning we are at least a 9 win team with adequate play from the QB position.  

[pigseye]

Which Bomber team are you guys actually talking about?

 

The current version or the one with Bowman, Hefney, Logan..........because I haven't seen anything since those guys left to indicate they could whip anyone.

[17to85]

Which Bomber team are you guys actually talking about?

 

The current version or the one with Bowman, Hefney, Logan..........because I haven't seen anything since those guys left to indicate they could whip anyone.

well the bombers with Parker at lb, washington in Hefneys spot and Muamba in Logans spot are closer to that team from last year than anything you saw in preseason....Or are you still pretending that preseason was the actual team playing? That's the thing about preseason, we don't know what the team will look like cause the starters got almost no time. You choose to assume cause guys who wound up being cut got their asses kicked that the starters will suck too, last year with the actual starters begs to differ, we'll just see how rusty they are to start the season.

[pigseye]

well the bombers with Parker at lb, washington in Hefneys spot and Muamba in Logans spot are closer to that team from last year than anything you saw in preseason....Or are you still pretending that preseason was the actual team playing? That's the thing about preseason, we don't know what the team will look like cause the starters got almost no time. You choose to assume cause guys who wound up being cut got their asses kicked that the starters will suck too, last year with the actual starters begs to differ, we'll just see how rusty they are to start the season.

 

I assume nothing, I'll wait to see what the starters can and can't do before I declare them to be as good or better than the guys they are replacing. We're talking about guys who were only a year removed from being all CFL at their respective positions, so I'm actually pretty pumped to see how good the new guys must be.

[Atomic]

I don't think anyone is going to be disappointed with Washington.  Hefney leaves some big shoes to fill but I'm pretty sure that's one spot where we're going to be okay.

 

Parker was good on special teams when he got in last year but he didn't play much on defence so it's hard to know how he will do.  However I think it was a big mistake not taking him to Hamilton, even if he had already won the job.  If anyone needs the reps, it's him.

[bluto]

I don't know Bluto.  Last time Buck Pierce played a full game the Bombers whipped on the Argos in their own barn.  Since we're talking about shaky memories after a long off-season and all.  

 

Now you might say, "it was Ricky's first game back" or "we weren't playing well then" but at least from my perspective (I won't speak for Mike) that's the point.  With decent QBing (i.e. semi-healthy Buck) we can beat teams who are less than their best.  Meaning we are at least a 9 win team with adequate play from the QB position.  

 

wasn't Ray's fault we lost that game. he was majestic.

our defence stunk and we gave away 3 fumbles thanks to Owens' broken thumb (all of which we got scored on). we had a determined run game attacking us and Jones miscalculated by keeping his base defence up against it. frustrating. ultimately though, it was likely the game that lead to the team pulling their socks up for the rest of the run-in.

[pigseye]

BC released Joash Gesse, a good NI LB special teams guy.

[TrueBlue]

wasn't Ray's fault we lost that game. he was majestic.

our defence stunk and we gave away 3 fumbles thanks to Owens' broken thumb (all of which we got scored on). we had a determined run game attacking us and Jones miscalculated by keeping his base defence up against it. frustrating. ultimately though, it was likely the game that lead to the team pulling their socks up for the rest of the run-in.

That was a generally sloppy game from both teams. It only appeared that the team who just made less mistakes ended up being the victor.

[iso_55]

Fans hate Mack because they hear TSN, their local media & the national media following the CFL grinding on him all the time. Look at the negative reaction of that 52-0 loss on TSN & the things Schultz & Climie were saying about the Bombers. Well, that same feeling was prevalent here as well. That loss looked especially bad when you add it to the 6-12 season last year. Then Mack's firing of LaPo & the way it was handled, the beating we took in Regina the next week &  Mack refusing to talk to the media for 4 days after that loss turned media & fans against him. During the Stamps  broadcast last week one of the radio commentators said while discussing the loss in Hamilton, that the only way the Bombers will get better is if Joe Mack gets fired because he's the team's biggest problem. People in other cities hear that & believe what the media says. believe  me, Mack is not well liked & perceived as incompetent as well as aloof in other CFL cities.

[AKAChip]

Alright, moving on to Toronto.

 

I know everyone is talking about how good these guys are and all that and I recognize they are the defending champs so they've earned the benefit of the doubt to some degree. That being said, I can't think of a team with more question marks on defence than these guys. I will get to that later though.

 

On offense, Ray is obviously a top-tier QB so there is no qualm there. Again, as Mike mentioned earlier, that main thing that separates the Bombers from every other tea, in the league is obviously quarterbacking. I do agree that at every other position, they at the very least stack up to most other teams but Pierce is at the very best an average QB, if even that. But this is supposed to be about the Argos and I have digressed. I should also mention, that Harris and Collaros are both impressive at backup QB and I actually like their QBs 1-3 more than anyone else's in the league by far. Your third string QB can of course only get you so far but it's worth mentioning. Kackert is a dynamic and effective RB so again they have no real question mark here and although their receivers aren't as good as Montreal's are, it isn't a real position of concern. I still don't think Owens is that great of a receiver and Durie is a good receiver buoyed by his NI status but they are a serviceable 1-2. The real key here is Inman who in my mind is a tremendous talent who should only get better in his second season. Barnes and what's left of Romby Bryant are average enough 4th and 5th options. At OL, they are good but not great. I will be honest in saying that I don't really know who is going to start in this group, perhaps bluto can enlighten us, but Eppele and Reinders are good prospects at the very least. I imagine Tony Washington will start who is certainly not dominant for an import OT but at least decent. Van Zeyl, Keeping, Parenteau and Wayne Smith are also in the picture in some capacity and all are average to good NI starters. This is a good group nonetheless. 

 

I didn't discuss special teams much with the Als because Sean Whyte is solid but I would like to discuss the kicking game of the Argos. To me, this is a question mark. As of now, their kicker and punter is Swayze Waters, an import. I am not a huge fan of this guy personally as he has a strong leg but his accuracy is very questionable. They also recently signed Noel Prefontaine, which isn't a ringing endorsement of Waters as well in my eyes.

 

The defence is a huge question mark outside the outside linebackers. I know some will say that they were in a similar situation last year and brought in guys like Pacino Horne, Pat Watkins, Ahmad Carroll (who himself wasn't all that good but that's another story), Marcus Ball, among others and will lightning strike twice? Perhaps. Chris Jones does know what he is doing, there's no doubt but no matter what his track record is, doesn't take away the fact that there will be many new faces and CFL rookies on the Toronto D this year.

 

Their D-line is all new faces and should end up being 75% rookies. We all know Khalif Mitchell is a great talent and frankly, I don't care one bit that he's a nutjob since his play hasn't really declined in his three years in the league. He should be a standout on the line. The other tackle position will be filled in part my Jermaine Reid or newcomer Kiante Tripp. Reid has been a serviceable NI spot stater in the league and Tripp is completely green. There should be some growing pains there. At end, Flemons and Foley are gone (not that they were world beaters anyway but they were veterans who could play). In their place should be a combination of newcomer imports Johnathan Williams and Nekos Brown and NIs Cleyon Laing and David Lee. The two NIs are talent players, no doubt but they are in their first and second seasons respectively and have little to no in game experience. At LB, Marcus Ball is already one of the best WIL LBers in the CFL, if not THE best and Brandon Isaac parlayed a reasonably successful career as a HB into a very good season at SAM. Both are very solid. The MLB position however, should be an adventure. As of right now, I assume the 35 year old Robert McCune will start the year there, but I could be mistaken. Don't get me wrong, he's a serviceable and respectable player but even at a younger age, he wasn't among the top LBers in the league and at 35 one can only imagine that he doesn't have a ton left in the tank. NI Jason Pottinger has played the position in the past as well but his best days are behind him. 

 

The secondary, outside of Watkins will be entirely new as well. Watkins had a sensational year last year and for my money is a top 3 CB in the league if not better. I have an immense amount of respect for him as a player. On the other hand, the Argos will really miss Horne and especially Evan McCollough, a player I really thought the Bombers should have signed. He is probably the most underrated DB in the entire league and is not even remotely easily replaced. Of course there are some promising new faces that are going to try to fill the void but they are just that, promising. Who's to say that their new faces at crucial positions are any better prepared than the Bombers'? The names Jalil Carter, Jermaine Gabriel, Joshua Gatlin, Shane Herbert and Jamie Robinson don't mean much at the moment and any one or few of these guys may end up being as good as McCollough but as of now, they are question marks. Very similarly to the Als, the safety position is the one of most concern. Jordan Younger was not a spectacular athlete in his older age but he did do a very nice job of quarterbacking the defence. As of now, NI Matt Black is the new safety and how he does is very up in the air. I'm not going to write the guy off, but he always seemed like a career special teamer to me thrust into a starting job because the Younger retirement took the team by surprise. 

 

The Argos have many excellent players and that pains me to the bone to say but there are holes in the lineup. Could they find more Marcus Balls and Pacino Hornes? I'm sure some newcomers have what it takes but the fact remains that there will be at least 8 new starters on this defence and that could certainly lead to some problems.

 

Hamilton next.

[Floyd]

Disagree with the suspect NI depth. I think the depth is fine. The question is whether or not the top end of the NI roster is good enough. The potential is there, it's whether they play like it. 

 

As long as Labbe is our depth behind Muamba, it is suspect.

 

Stephan has yet to prove he can play and prove he can stay healthy.

 

Poblah, Kohlert, Etienne, Carter are all not 'proven' commodities...  potential yes, but big question marks.

 

Kowalczuk is our backup C - nuff said.

 

After our 35 year old (?) long snapper, who do we have backing him up?  Fitzgerald...?

 

And yes, West looked great in camp but, again, prove it in a game.

 

On the upside, Greg Bearman is not on the roster.

[AKAChip]

As long as Labbe is our depth behind Muamba, it is suspect.

 

Stephan has yet to prove he can play and prove he can stay healthy.

 

Poblah, Kohlert, Etienne, Carter are all not 'proven' commodities...  potential yes, but big question marks.

 

Kowalczuk is our backup C - nuff said.

 

After our 35 year old (?) long snapper, who do we have backing him up?  Fitzgerald...?

 

And yes, West looked great in camp but, again, prove it in a game.

 

On the upside, Greg Bearman is not on the roster.

 

This is something I really disagree with. I think people take for granted how hard it is to field 7 quality NI starters let along backups that can be adequate starters. Labbe is far from perfect but he is a very good special teams guy who in an absolute pinch can play defence. Too much has been asked of him in the past but to say he is part of the reason for suspect NI depth is pretty unfair. I won't speak for Carter or Etienne (yet) and I am the furthest thing from a Poblah fan (oh how I wish we had Ted Laurent) but at the very least Poblah and Kohlert are serviceable depth guys at worst. 

 

The bottom line is, our NI talent is far from the bottom of the league and is consistently improving. We have 7 NI starters that don't bring the team down (Swiston over Morely would be nice but for now, I can live with it) and there are young guys in the pipe. To expect us to have not only 7 NI starters that can play but also world-beating backups is pretty unfair. Just put it this way, who is backing up Emry in Montreal? Brian Ridgeway? Nicolas Boulay? Exactly.

[Mike]

As long as Labbe is our depth behind Muamba, it is suspect.

 

Stephan has yet to prove he can play and prove he can stay healthy.

 

Poblah, Kohlert, Etienne, Carter are all not 'proven' commodities...  potential yes, but big question marks.

 

Kowalczuk is our backup C - nuff said.

 

After our 35 year old (?) long snapper, who do we have backing him up?  Fitzgerald...?

 

And yes, West looked great in camp but, again, prove it in a game.

 

On the upside, Greg Bearman is not on the roster.

 

I just want to point something out. It's literally impossible to compile the depth you're looking for in the CFL. You can't offer players the dollars or the playing time they covet if they're good enough to be considered "good" depth. You pay your starters and then you fill out the squad.

 

Also ... backup long snapper? What?

[17to85]

As long as Labbe is our depth behind Muamba, it is suspect.

 

Stephan has yet to prove he can play and prove he can stay healthy.

 

Poblah, Kohlert, Etienne, Carter are all not 'proven' commodities...  potential yes, but big question marks.

 

Kowalczuk is our backup C - nuff said.

 

After our 35 year old (?) long snapper, who do we have backing him up?  Fitzgerald...?

 

And yes, West looked great in camp but, again, prove it in a game.

 

On the upside, Greg Bearman is not on the roster.

As far as depth players all of those guys are fine. Like I said, you can talk about whether or not the top end is up to snuff, but as far as depth goes the bombers are fine.

[AKAChip]

Come on Mike, Saskatchewan has three long snappers on their roster + PR. How could we let Matechuk get away?

[Mike]

For the record, we actually have a pretty good backup LS on the roster.

 

Pontbriand was capable at it for the Canadian National Team.

[AKAChip]

I was being sarcastic.

[bluto]

good Argo summary AKA Chip, by and large i agree with you.

 

a few things i'd add/amend:

 

-you asked what the starting O-Line is, likely from left to right it goes: Washington, Eppele, Keeping, Parenteau/Reinders, Van Zeyl with Smith as the key NI backup. i also think that you damned Washington with faint praise a bit. he was monstrous for us and his addition to the line (after Barker saw that his hopes of 5 NIs wasn't viable) was one of the main reasons the offence started to gel. Milanovich wants a forcefield around Ray like the one he had for AC. we'll see.

 

-the addition of Pre (to the PR) was more of a non-confidence vote in Anthony Alix than in Swayze Waters. it's not like the plan is to dress Pre.

 

-not sure what else McCune would have to do to earn your (and other reviewers i have seen) respect. the guy was rock solid all year. if the reason is his age, i get what you're saying... but nobody who is on the team is questioning his athleticism. the man looks like Godzilla.

 

-Jones has always used heavy rotation on the D-Line. there was a lot of fresh blood brought in to compete in TC. we all know what Mitchell is able to do. Williams is legit and fans will get to know this guy. i reckon that Lee and Laing will get a fair share at DE too. we weren't overwhelming on D-Line last season, except for one guy... and i see that being the case again this year.

 

-in the secondary, we're known commodities at the corners (Watkins and Carter, who filled in for Watkins against Mtl and Calg in the playoffs), and Matt Black has taken over the quarterback-in-the-secondary role to raves from coaches and players. the rest? well, the best of them broke his ankle in the 2nd preseason game... looks like it's on Gatlin and Robinson to round out the crew. 

 

-will they find more Ball and Horne types? i believe they already have found a pair of very promising prospects.