Vince Le To Get Unescorted Leaves

[iso_55]

WHEN on meds.... damned right it was gruesome. You denying that, Jacquie? You seem to think this is cut & dried. Stay  on his  meds & he's okay. As long as he does that we'll be fine. Pretty naïve. I wonder how people in Selkirk feel about this  guy walking unescorted in their town?

[Mark H.]

The truth is we're all Naive about this - but some of us have at least a little trust in the professionals while you clearly don't

 

As for Selkirk, I live 20 minutes from town and go there once or twice a week.  Most people are wondering why there's so much fuss about Lee when plenty of criminally insane individuals roam the city on a regular basis.

[iso_55]

I don't trust Li. 

[Brandon]

 

 

 

Mental illness is just an excuse. Yeah drugs can manage it, but if you stop taking the drugs you can go right back to being a crazy person and a danger to society. I'm all for greater awareness of mental problems and greater methods for spotting mental troubles early and helping people but that being said you show that you're crazy enough to behead someone and eat them sorry but you blew your chance at being part of a functioning society. 

Generalization that is way off the mark. A lot of people who have been touched by mental health issues would take offense to this remark.

That's why we, as a collective group of people trying to co-exist with one another, rely on professionals (i.e Mark H's point) in these chosen vocations to apply their education, expertise, experiences and emotional intelligence to the most relevant information/evidence available. Usually no one case is identical to the other that warrants a particular decision for that situation. Yes, sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't.  That's true for any vocation. It's called the complexity of life.   

 

Quite frankly I don't care if those people are offended. I see no reason to be PC about it. If you're crazy you're crazy why tip toe around it? Like I said I am all for mental health awareness and programs to help people and ending the nonsense that some problems you just have to suck up and deal with it... but once you cross the line from simply crazy to crazed killer I'm sorry but it's game over and I want that person out of society. 

 

 

Yeah well, drunk people have also been known to do some crazy things, especially while behind the steering wheel.  

 

 

Alchoalism is a disease

 

[Brandon]

 

 

 

Mark, how can you possibly compare that to a guy beheading another person & eating him??? No, you can't guarantee anything which is why Li should be locked up for the rest of his life. I totally agree with 17 when he says if you're crazy, you're crazy & why be politically correct about it? The man is looney tunes & will always be a risk to society. 

 

Because in both scenarios - a person is dead.  Yet when someone has served their sentence for vehicular homicide they are released - and it's usually not all over the news and we don't have MP's calling for appeals.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

That is a ridiculous analogy. I don't know how much more you can twist your logic & still be serious? Do you think there's a chance Craig McTavish is going to go out & behead or eat someone tonight?

 

You certainly are making it clear that the gruesomeness of what happened is your major consideration. Would you be so outraged if Vince Li had stabbed Tim McLean in the chest and then sat there like nothing had happened? When on his meds, Vince Li is much less likely to re-offend than an alcoholic with a car.

 

 

I'm all in favor of a drunk driver getting life sentence for killing an innocent person... the area of fault is the justice system.  

 

People should pay HEAVILY when doing something extremely bad.    Their is no excuses for killing an innocent person,  whether being addicted to drugs, booze ,  or if you're flat out insane like Vince Li.  

 

Did you know that Jeffrey Dahmer was *diagnosed* and was on meds in his youth as well?  Look what happened when he didn't continue taking his meds.   Ultimately when the justice system didn't work it appears that somebody had to pay an inmate to take care of the business and I didn't see any body shedding a tear when he was put away....

[17to85]

 

 

 

 

 

Mental illness is just an excuse. Yeah drugs can manage it, but if you stop taking the drugs you can go right back to being a crazy person and a danger to society. I'm all for greater awareness of mental problems and greater methods for spotting mental troubles early and helping people but that being said you show that you're crazy enough to behead someone and eat them sorry but you blew your chance at being part of a functioning society. 

Generalization that is way off the mark. A lot of people who have been touched by mental health issues would take offense to this remark.

That's why we, as a collective group of people trying to co-exist with one another, rely on professionals (i.e Mark H's point) in these chosen vocations to apply their education, expertise, experiences and emotional intelligence to the most relevant information/evidence available. Usually no one case is identical to the other that warrants a particular decision for that situation. Yes, sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't.  That's true for any vocation. It's called the complexity of life.   

 

Quite frankly I don't care if those people are offended. I see no reason to be PC about it. If you're crazy you're crazy why tip toe around it? Like I said I am all for mental health awareness and programs to help people and ending the nonsense that some problems you just have to suck up and deal with it... but once you cross the line from simply crazy to crazed killer I'm sorry but it's game over and I want that person out of society. 

 

 

Yeah well, drunk people have also been known to do some crazy things, especially while behind the steering wheel.  

 

but if you commit a crime while drunk you don't get to use the techinicality that you weren't in your right state of mind, you get held responsible for your actions. 

 

 

Drunkeness can reduce a murder charge to manslaughter, which greatly shortens the sentence.  When said person is released - there is no way to know if they'll reoffend or not.

 

yeah but murder vs. manslaughter is a legal terminology thing. Basically to commit muder you need to have intent, manslaughter is more of a "whoops killed someone" charge. For the record if a drunk driver kills someone I'm in favour of getting them out of society too. They too blew their chance. 

[Mark H.]

My main concern rests with the Shelley Glovers of the world.  Choosing Li as a talking point, as a case to be appealed.  What has she ever said about the thousands of people who have been killed by impaired drivers?

 

IMO, her motive is not justice.  Her motive is get re-elected.  

 

[Atomic]

- Do NCRs (Not Criminally Responsible), once they are released, ever reoffend? The recidivism rate for criminals released from the corrections system is very high -- estimates range from 40 to 50 per cent. For NCRs, the recidivism rate is between 10 to 15 per cent. However, for those NCRs hospitalized for the most violent crimes, the recidivism rate nationally is almost zero. In Manitoba, Mackenzie said he is not aware of any NCR responsible for a killing who committed another violent crime after being released.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/making-sense--of-ncr-247992421.html

[road griller]

Seen the pics and videos of Crystal Taman's car.  Pretty gruesome.  Can only imagine what that scene was like.

 

Wonder when we are  going to hear from the former tough on crime columnist about this?  Seeing they have been through the system themselves of late.....     

[Rich]

- Do NCRs (Not Criminally Responsible), once they are released, ever reoffend? The recidivism rate for criminals released from the corrections system is very high -- estimates range from 40 to 50 per cent. For NCRs, the recidivism rate is between 10 to 15 per cent. However, for those NCRs hospitalized for the most violent crimes, the recidivism rate nationally is almost zero. In Manitoba, Mackenzie said he is not aware of any NCR responsible for a killing who committed another violent crime after being released.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/making-sense--of-ncr-247992421.html

 

Thats an interesting read.  Thanks for posting.

 

According to that article he is released but will be continued to be monitored to ensure that he continues to take his medication, and if he refuses to take his medication he will be institutionalized again.

[Mark H.]

Excellent article.  A must for anyone who wants to understand NCR.  In reality, their reintegration programs are very successful.

 

[kelownabomberfan]

Are you actually going to contribute something to this thread or just crack jokes in and among all the serious posts being made?

 

Just wondering. It's borderline offensive.

I've contributed a lot to this thread, Mike, including posting a link to an article in the Sun that I disagreed with, but thought it relevant. Yeah I've added some offensive humour, but it's only in response to the extremely offensive bleeding heart nonsense I've seen posted here (drunk driving - shame on you guys for dragging that issue into this discussion), so now we're both offended, and I really didn't want to get into name-calling etc as that just takes away from the debate. I agree that this is an emotional issue and given we are human it's basically impossible to separate the emotion here, especially when given the gruesome nature of what happened. I blame Li for his actions (for going off his meds when he knew he was ill, at the very least) but I also blame the RCMP for just standing around for hours, just letting it happen. If this had happened a few hundred miles south Li would have waved his knife and head of the victim at the cops and gotten a double tap to the heart and one between the eyes and the cannibalism would have never happened. But it did, and they just sat there watching, and I've never really felt the RCMP apologized for that.

Part of the issue here too is perspective. Some of us are old enough to have nephews and in Iso's case sons that are the same age as the poor guy who was killed and eaten by this nutbar and when you have sons that age, all you can think about is what would have happened and how you would have felt if that boy had been your kid. I can't imagine the trauma and suffering of that family who had to endure that. To watch a guy do that to your beautiful loved son and then get to walk free after a few years of "treatment" just defies all logic and reason. A guy in Edmonton just got 26 months in prison for killing a police dog for goodness sakes. So I know where Iso is coming from here. Should we just blindly trust our doctors and physicians in these cases? Well ok. But the fact that he's now considered a safe risk to the public is only half the issue here. It just doesn't seem to some of us that this guy has truly paid for what he did, and I'm not going to apologize for feeling that way, even if it's "borderline offensive" to some of you.

[blueandgoldguy]

Bleeding heart nonsense is the last resort of someone who hasn't taken time to examine all sides of the issue.  It's weak, ill-informed and lacking in common sense.

[Mark H.]

 

Are you actually going to contribute something to this thread or just crack jokes in and among all the serious posts being made?

 

Just wondering. It's borderline offensive.

I've contributed a lot to this thread, Mike, including posting a link to an article in the Sun that I disagreed with, but thought it relevant. Yeah I've added some offensive humour, but it's only in response to the extremely offensive bleeding heart nonsense I've seen posted here (drunk driving - shame on you guys for dragging that issue into this discussion), so now we're both offended, and I really didn't want to get into name-calling etc as that just takes away from the debate. I agree that this is an emotional issue and given we are human it's basically impossible to separate the emotion here, especially when given the gruesome nature of what happened. I blame Li for his actions (for going off his meds when he knew he was ill, at the very least) but I also blame the RCMP for just standing around for hours, just letting it happen. If this had happened a few hundred miles south Li would have waved his knife and head of the victim at the cops and gotten a double tap to the heart and one between the eyes and the cannibalism would have never happened. But it did, and they just sat there watching, and I've never really felt the RCMP apologized for that.

 

Shame on us?  Sorry, but drunk driving has killed more people and ruined more lives than the criminally insane ever will.

 

I know someone who's dead because of an impaired driver - the driver got five years. In five years he'll be out of custody and not under any kind of supervision.

 

Please read the article from the Free Press that was posted in this thread.

[sweep the leg]

 

 I blame Li for his actions (for going off his meds when he knew he was ill, at the very least)

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/psychiatrist-pitches-unsupervised-selkirk-visits-for-vince-li-1.2549481

 

"Li had undiagnosed schizophrenia at the time of the incident, in which he stabbed McLean and ate parts of his body."

[Milt]

 

Are you actually going to contribute something to this thread or just crack jokes in and among all the serious posts being made?

 

Just wondering. It's borderline offensive.

I've contributed a lot to this thread, Mike, including posting a link to an article in the Sun that I disagreed with, but thought it relevant. Yeah I've added some offensive humour, but it's only in response to the extremely offensive bleeding heart nonsense I've seen posted here (drunk driving - shame on you guys for dragging that issue into this discussion), so now we're both offended, and I really didn't want to get into name-calling etc as that just takes away from the debate. I agree that this is an emotional issue and given we are human it's basically impossible to separate the emotion here, especially when given the gruesome nature of what happened. I blame Li for his actions (for going off his meds when he knew he was ill, at the very least) but I also blame the RCMP for just standing around for hours, just letting it happen. If this had happened a few hundred miles south Li would have waved his knife and head of the victim at the cops and gotten a double tap to the heart and one between the eyes and the cannibalism would have never happened. But it did, and they just sat there watching, and I've never really felt the RCMP apologized for that.

Part of the issue here too is perspective. Some of us are old enough to have nephews and in Iso's case sons that are the same age as the poor guy who was killed and eaten by this nutbar and when you have sons that age, all you can think about is what would have happened and how you would have felt if that boy had been your kid. I can't imagine the trauma and suffering of that family who had to endure that. To watch a guy do that to your beautiful loved son and then get to walk free after a few years of "treatment" just defies all logic and reason. A guy in Edmonton just got 26 months in prison for killing a police dog for goodness sakes. So I know where Iso is coming from here. Should we just blindly trust our doctors and physicians in these cases? Well ok. But the fact that he's now considered a safe risk to the public is only half the issue here. It just doesn't seem to some of us that this guy has truly paid for what he did, and I'm not going to apologize for feeling that way, even if it's "borderline offensive" to some of you.

 

If they would have killed him at that point they would be in court being tried for murder themselves. So don't hold your breath for an apology.

[kelownabomberfan]

Shame on us?  Sorry, but drunk driving has killed more people and ruined more lives than the criminally insane ever will.

 

I know someone who's dead because of an impaired driver - the driver got five years. In five years he'll be out of custody and not under any kind of supervision.

 

Please read the article from the Free Press that was posted in this thread.

Mark - sorry to hear about your friend. That's horrible. I just didn't see and still don't see how drunk driving is related to this topic. We could introduce one hundred red herrings about stupid decisions made by humans that led to the death of other humans and how those people were put in jail and are now out, but it doesn't really relate to this specific story. Anyway, once again, sorry to hear about your friend.

I read the article, and I get the fact that this guy was found NCR. I also get that it's "naïve" of anyone to question the doctors making the decisionto let him go out unsupervised as of course they are the intelligent experts and we're all dumb so our opinions don't matter, and of course, we all lack "common sense", whatever the hell that is. We just have to keep our emotions in check here and see what happens. And that's the reality here, no one knows what is going to happen. Hopefully in 20 years, the name of Vince Li is forgotten, and his reintegration into society was successful. Maybe you guys will one day end up sitting beside him at a Jets game, or buying him a beer at a wedding social, and not even know it. We don't know if he will re-offend, but we do know what he is capable of if he does. So that's that.

[kelownabomberfan]

If they would have killed him at that point they would be in court being tried for murder themselves. So don't hold your breath for an apology.

If he is brandishing a knife, and refuses to surrender, then I would hope the cops have the authority, legally, to take him down. Otherwise, if cops can't defend themselves then what's the point of giving them guns?

 

I looked back at some old stories, and it seems that the Mclean family sued the RCMP for not acting more decisively. Here's one take on the RCMP's actions I found:

There were over three dozen passengers on the bus, including in the seats around Li and McLean. The attacker “did not pay any attention to the other passengers” and at one point was stabbing his victim “as he lay on the floor.” That’s difficult to do. You have to lean over. Yet there is no suggestion in the “agreed statement” that anyone attempted to disarm the “oblivious” Mr Li. I wonder if, in Tim McLean’s last conscious moments, he was aware that his fellow passengers had “vacated” the bus and barricaded him in with his murderer.

And then, of course, the Mounties show up in all the superbutch combat gear and, in some weird parody of the secure-the-perimeter strategy that helps run up the body count at so many sieges, sat outside the bus for 4½ hours even though Mr. Li was already waving Mr. McLean’s head around, and it was clear there was no one alive in the bus except the killer. Nevertheless, the RCMP passed the rest of the night watching Mr. Li slice up the body, and eat the bits that took his fancy, while Sgt. Brown, Cpl. Smith and the rest of the boys filed occasional progress reports on the evening’s dinner theatre:

“Okay, Badger’s at the back of the bus, hacking off pieces and eating it.”

“Badger” was the supercool top-secret code name they decided to give the killer. When this and other police communications turned up on YouTube, the RCMP issued a statement that it was “not meant for public consumption,” which isn’t the most felicitous phrasing under the circumstances. “These brave men in uniform had ringside seats,” wrote the blogger Sean Berry, “and did absolutely nothing to bring it to an end except sit on their macho asses and play sportscaster.” Had Mr. Li not got bored in the early hours of the morning and decided to leave the bus, they’d have sat there the rest of the week. Tim McLean’s parents are now suing the RCMP.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/03/26/the-silence-of-the-canadian-lambs/2/

[Jacquie]

If he is brandishing a knife, and refuses to surrender, then I would hope the cops have the authority, legally, to take him down. Otherwise, if cops can't defend themselves then what's the point of giving them guns?

 

Li was on an empty bus when the RCMP got there. There was no imminent danger at that point so there would have been no legal justification for them to shoot him. People may not like that the RCMP waited him out but it seems to be pretty standard procedure for situations where an armed individual is holed up in a house or vehicle. 

[Brandon]

Long story short on this whole story....  people who do defend Li... I welcome them to go to a nice retreat with Mr Li out of town for a few days and you can take his word that he's on his meds.  Maybe watch some South Park with him    I'm pretty sure they wouldn't' be sleeping easy at night!  

 

[Brandon]

For the record my inside source (someone I knew who was guarding Li while he was on death watch)  said he was a completely normal quiet person who randomly would want to off himself completely out of the blue.    He was on his meds at the time but they played pool with him and cards and 95% of the time he was an average normal guy.    Kind of weird that a cold blooded murderer gets a chance to play pool to pass time,  I don't even get a chance to play pool and I have zero criminal record.  

 

After his experience with him he said it was extremely creepy because he didn't look out of place or scummy like most of the people who go to jail.... but the fact that he would just randomly turn on his suicidal tendencies creeped the bejesus out of him.   They had to literally Hannibal Lector him at times (I.E. keep him in restraints and tied down).    

[Jacquie]

Iso, how many times have you seen news reports about a police stand-off involving someone armed in a house lasting for hours versus how many times you have heard reports of police storming the house immediately. Fact is the police can't shoot someone unless they feel they are in imminent danger of being attacked. They would have had to send officers on the bus which, given the design and very limited room of the bus, would have been dangerous for the officers.

 

For the record my inside source (someone I knew who was guarding Li while he was on death watch)  said he was a completely normal quiet person who randomly would want to off himself completely out of the blue.    He was on his meds at the time

 

How long after he had started taking meds was this person you know guarding him because it can take 4-6 weeks before the meds take full effect and it can take time to find the drug and dosage that works best for a patient.

[Brandon]

Iso, how many times have you seen news reports about a police stand-off involving someone armed in a house lasting for hours versus how many times you have heard reports of police storming the house immediately. Fact is the police can't shoot someone unless they feel they are in imminent danger of being attacked. They would have had to send officers on the bus which, given the design and very limited room of the bus, would have been dangerous for the officers.

 

For the record my inside source (someone I knew who was guarding Li while he was on death watch)  said he was a completely normal quiet person who randomly would want to off himself completely out of the blue.    He was on his meds at the time

 

How long after he had started taking meds was this person you know guarding him because it can take 4-6 weeks before the meds take full effect and it can take time to find the drug and dosage that works best for a patient.

 

This was when he was being held at the remand center,  not sure exactly how long after he was back on meds.  I imagine it would fall somewhere in that timeline.  

 

As for the police / rcmp.... these days they literally can do jack squat to anyone in any situation.  It's a very sad state of affairs when a policeman has to justify why his bullet his a vital organ after a criminal has open fire and unleashed a barrage of bullets at him.   Apparently policemen have to either take the bullets and/or wait for the absolute perfect opportunity to shoot the enemy in the leg.     Ask any policeman it's brutal being a cop out there these days....  the criminals have way more rights and liberties then what they do.  

[Jacquie]

 

This was when he was being held at the remand center,  not sure exactly how long after he was back on meds.  I imagine it would fall somewhere in that timeline.  

 

Vince Li wouldn't have been "back on meds" because he was undiagnosed at the time Tim McLean was killed.

[kelownabomberfan]

Vince Li wouldn't have been "back on meds" because he was undiagnosed at the time Tim McLean was killed.

It appears that while he was "undiagnosed" he was put in a mental facility in 2005 in Toronto and given some meds, but he left as he refused treatment.

Ana would receive a call from police in September 2005 indicating that Li had been picked up walking along Highway 427 north of Toronto, completely disoriented and appearing as if he had not eaten or slept in several days. He was taken to a psychiatric facility in west Toronto. Doctors suggested Li remain in the facility for at least a month for a full psychiatric assessment.

The circumstances surrounding Li's release from the Toronto hospital are unclear. Li claimed he "escaped" and there is no discharge note on his chart. It is now believed he refused treatment and left against the advice of his doctor. He was prescribed medication for his condition, but he was never formally diagnosed with a mental disorder.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/tormented_by_mental_illness-40769547.html