The Ultimate Warrior, Dead at 54

[The Unknown Poster]

Paul was *this close* to returning to SPIKE in the form of running TNA.  But he wanted final say on the direction of things and Dixie Carter, Wrestling Expert, wouldnt give it to him.  Paul knew that no matter what he did, having Dixie over-ruling him and having people undermining him to Dixie would lead to his downfall.

 

As slick as TNA looks, ECW was far more successful.  When they were on TNN, they drew a similar rating as TNA but on Friday nights with ZERO promotion from the network.  Their PPV numbers far exeeded TNA (TNA stopped doing PPV's because they were such a money loser).

 

And yet the crazy part is, ECW was losing money and was secretly bankrolled by Vince for quite some time (allowing WWE to secure the trademarks once Paul put it into bankruptcy).

 

Im not completely sold on Bray Wyatt yet.  I actually felt his promo delivery was very poor at first.  He spoke too fast.  He's getting better.  His work is "okay", also getting better.  But his character is tremendous and unique and HHH is giving him the time and the push to get over.  Ofcourse, he should have won at WrestleMania and the booking leading to a cage match is silly.  If they actually had the guts to use Bray to turn Cena, I'd be happy but I dont see it happening.  I actually thought they would sign the Briscoes to be Bray's backup but Im glad they've given Harper & whatshisname time to develop.  Whatshisname is pretty limited but Luke Harper is great.  its points in favour of signing guys with indy experience and points in favour of guys having input into their own stuff (Bray chose his music and writes his own promos).

[Nasty Nate]

I think Bray is more than OK as a worker UP, especially for a guy with a body type somewhere between Bullinski & Samoa Joe.

 

But he's a heel with a faction so he ends up doing less physical work than he probably could. - plus the Hawaii shirts and sitting on a throne are his least becoming elements. 

 

HHH and WWE didn't have the heart to end Cena w/ Wyatt at WM - maybe they were just test-driving Bray in a huge venue. 

 

They're prolly hoping Luke Harper can progress to the upper mid card on his own but I don't think he'll even get that far. 

 

Love the fact almost everyone at WWE is getting Gene Kiniski haircuts - HHH, Kane, Lesnar (more Wilbur Snyder), Bautista, Orton, etc. Wonder when they'll sheer Daniel Bryan? Can't see them doing it before Wrestlemania.

 

Wyatt's writing brilliance can't be over-looked. Some of his stuff is classic. If I was handling him I'd just tell him to apply his southern "accent" on a more consistent basis as he tends to lose it during some of his promos. Its much more ominous when its got that "Dueling Banjos" tone.

[The Unknown Poster]

Bray is a take-off on Waylon Mercy who was himself a take off on Robert De Niro's Max Cady from Cape Fear.  Dont get me wrong, I like him.  he had some excellent matches with the Sheild.  I just havent seen him in a "defining" match yet (maybe because he's working with Cena).

 

I think the fans are into Luke Harper and he has a chance to get pushed.  He has great facials.

 

Its almost difficult to believe that Bray and Bo Dallas are brothers and their father is IRS (and their mother is Barry Windham's sister).  Barry Windham, by the way, was one of the truly great under-rated performers of his era.  I could watch Windham (and Arn Anderson) matches all day.

 

I was hoping they'd clean up Bryan's look by now.  When he turned on the Wyatt's, it would have been a good time for them to cut his hair and beard so he didnt look like them.  When he feuded with HHH, a good heel move would have been HHH shaving him.  Apparently Brie loves the hobo look otherwise Im sure they would have pushed for a cleaner look for the wedding.

[Brandon]

No Heyman won't go back at this point unless they poured a bag of cash at him - I'm talking millions. That won't happen.

Heyman had a huge brave streak back in the 90s when he formed ECW and it was the leading edge wrestling promotion in the world - until he started running out of money.

I'm sure Vince has him locked up for a couple years at least.

The man definitely was not good with money And couldn't really compete holding a show in a smaller venue once a month...

[The Unknown Poster]

 

No Heyman won't go back at this point unless they poured a bag of cash at him - I'm talking millions. That won't happen.

Heyman had a huge brave streak back in the 90s when he formed ECW and it was the leading edge wrestling promotion in the world - until he started running out of money.

I'm sure Vince has him locked up for a couple years at least.

The man definitely was not good with money And couldn't really compete holding a show in a smaller venue once a month...

 

Paul had two problems:  terrible with money.  and ECW was its own worst enemy.  The more popular it became, the more expensive it was to run.  He took guys that the big two (WWE and WCW) didnt want (or in some cases a guy was leaving one, had a no compete that didnt include ECW) and drew with them and then they got offered big money deals to leave.  Steve Austin started what would become his Stone Cold character in ECW.  Rick Rude was there for awhile.  Raven turned his ECW run into a big money deal.  Paul took a chance on guys like Eddie, Sabu, RVD, Lynn, Rey Rey (and a host of Luchas).

 

The fact he convinced Vince to secretly bankroll him is nothing short of a miracle.  Rumour has it, Shane McMahon was a big fan of ECW and pushed his father to go more "adult".

[Brandon]

And if we ever went adult again I would watch again. UFC is starting to trend downward and a new ecw show could capture some of that market.

[The Unknown Poster]

And if we ever went adult again I would watch again. UFC is starting to trend downward and a new ecw show could capture some of that market.

*maybe* when HHH takes over we might trend towards more adult programming but I doubt it.  WWE is such a huge business now, being public, that they are unlikely to ever go back to the days where they openly courted controversy.  And to be honest, they dont have to.  As much as I like some blood and nudity with my wrestling, good story-telling is good story-telling whether its Rated G or Rated R.

[iso_55]

UFC kills itself with too many PPV's. Quantity not quality. They should just put on 5 or 6 shows a year. Make them quality events. Look at the Calgary PPV. Half the announced card didn't make it. How credible is that? Then they said they'd come back to make up for it but haven't so far. They're trying to make too much $$$ too fast. Greed is kicking  in. And with greed as always, the promotion will die off.

[17to85]

 

And if we ever went adult again I would watch again. UFC is starting to trend downward and a new ecw show could capture some of that market.

*maybe* when HHH takes over we might trend towards more adult programming but I doubt it.  WWE is such a huge business now, being public, that they are unlikely to ever go back to the days where they openly courted controversy.  And to be honest, they dont have to.  As much as I like some blood and nudity with my wrestling, good story-telling is good story-telling whether its Rated G or Rated R.

 

Seems to me that most of the adult audience shifted towards UFC and the like, the WWE has always held a popular place with kids though and I think that is rightly where they are focussing now. Being controversial and edgy worked for a time but I think times have changed and they won't be able to recapture that. 

[iso_55]

When they employ clowns acts like Emma & Santino Marella, The Great Khali & Horswoggle &  thinking they're funny when they're not... the WWE will never recapture the audience they had in the Attitude Era.

[Brandon]

UFC kills itself with too many PPV's. Quantity not quality. They should just put on 5 or 6 shows a year. Make them quality events. Look at the Calgary PPV. Half the announced card didn't make it. How credible is that? Then they said they'd come back to make up for it but haven't so far. They're trying to make too much $$$ too fast. Greed is kicking in. And with greed as always, the promotion will die off.

Being the 2nd biggest MMA fan on this site I can mostly point to the deal with fox as the main reason for the decline in interest.

With so many free cards that are nearly or even superior to the ppv it really has over saturated the brand and with watered down cards I just don't have a tonne of interest in paying big money when I can wait a week and watch a card for free.

The ultimate fighter is also a joke and needs to be killed. Also the lack of Pride hurts since they put on a very entertaining product.

WWE will never go edgy since the kids market is much more lucrative.

[bigg jay]

There are so many problems with the UFC right now that it would take for ever to go through them.

 

I agree that they are getting to the point of over-saturation.  As an example, between May 10th and June 28th, there are 8 events, with them having 2 events on the same day twice.  How they expect people to watch/follow that is beyond me.  With roughly 500 fighters under contract, you can barely keep up with who's who.  When they did 5-6 events a year they had time to properly build up the event and the fighters.  It was "must watch tv" for a lot of fans & you could plan around ppv's.  Now, there's no way you could do that, unless your life involves only your couch & tv.

[Nasty Nate]

UFC is makin' hay while the sun shines. Can't see them reaping the same financial killshots from a hungry and gullible public for more than a couple years.

 

Jon Jones is their big draw and he won't fight more than once a year - prolly only has two fights left in him before he goes Hollywood or TV.

 

GSP was their big ticket but his last few fights have been George fighting in a shell/bubble and he wants to make sure he never gets hurt again.

 

Ronda Rousey is another big ticket but she's reluctant to get into the ring with that Cyborg character who's bigger, taller and much stronger than Ronda - fuelled by roids of course!

 

Even Ronda's fights are sadly predictable. An early exchange of ground and pound positions then Rousey finds the other girls arm and its tap out city!

 

She could probably make more money in film or even working rigged stuff with WWE - could be the scariest monster they've had, probably ever and she's telegenic with almost model looks. Vince would bend over financially for her.

[iso_55]

My son is now watching the shows on Spike & not buying the UFC PPV's. I watched the main event last week with him & it was pretty darned good when the underdog beat up  the heavy fave. Sorry, don't know the name of the promotion.  Can somebody tell me?

[bigg jay]

If it was on Spike, then it was Bellator (they're owned by Spike's parent company Viacom).  They are the biggest MMA company after the UFC but aren't really competition for them.  They have some decent fighters but haven't been able to really create any big stars.  Their most well-known fighters are washed-up UFC guys (Tito Ortiz & Rampage Jackson).

 

If Viacom ever wanted to pull a page out of Ted Turner's playbook & poach some top UFC guys, they might be able to really give the UFC a run for their money.

[Jpan85]

Paul needed a distribution deal to keep ECW alive when it did not come the writing was on the wall. They were only 7.5 million in debt at the time were owed 2.8 million in PPV revenue that the PPV company refused to take. Plus Paul had invested 4 of that million into that company. Unlike Turner who could lose that much money on a month to month basis to keep his company going.

[Jpan85]

Paul discusses the demise of ECW just recent here with Stone Cold http://podcastone.com/Steve-Austin-Show

[The Unknown Poster]

The edgy adult period made wwe more money than any other time, allowed it to go public and turned a wealthy Vince McMahon into a billionaire. But providing content for adults doesn't have to mean blood and nudity (although a blood ban is silly either way). Just good writing.

UFC owes much of its success to wwe's willingness to promote it. And while many fans did become UFC fans I don't believe that the adults went to UFC and the kids stayed with wwe. When wwe bought wcw most wcw fans stopped watching wrestling. That was a huge blow. People like what they like.

[Brandon]

Well I don't agree with UFC gaining most of it's success because of WWE promoting it...   most people gained interest in the UFC because WWE became stale and the UFC with Ultimate Fighter 1 was extremely interesting and they started showing FREE FIGHTS on Spike which gave UFC the exposure it needed.   

 

Myself and my friends lost complete interest in WWE pretty much right after they bought out WCW and when ECW had folded.   Once the Rock and Steve Austin both left to make movies they simply didn't have any big stars that were interesting at all.   I don't think anyone of those same friends could name 3 wrestlers in the WWE right now (aside from the oldies).     Back in the late 90's  you would see a tonne of people wearing Austin 3:16 shirts and everyone knew the Rock and his one liners.    

 

The problem with the UFC I think was that they just shoved to much down the throat right now...  for the casual people it's impossible for them to keep up or become a more hardcore fan because the roster has expanded to something ridiculous (500 plus?) people and it's very hard to keep tabs on what's all happening.   A few years back when they used to do ppv's that alternated between Pride and them it was much easier for a casual person to follow along since you would always have a few main stays on each card (Liddell, Couture,  GSP, Hughes etc...)   now days on each card even myself who I'd say is pretty hardcore can only recognize maybe half of the people fighting on each card.   It's much to overly saturated. 

[bigg jay]

The WWE promoting the UFC certainly helped but I don`t see it being a major factor in their success either.  It was mutually beneficial for both sides to be friendly with each other (and it still is).  Like BVD said, free fights on TV was huge for them.  They took a gamble with The Ultimate Fighter (they paid Spike to air their show the 1st season rather than the network paying them like Fox does now) and it paid off big time.

[Brandon]

Its not like the ufc is losing any money on its events. Its still very profitable.

[The Unknown Poster]

Well I don't agree with UFC gaining most of it's success because of WWE promoting it...   most people gained interest in the UFC because WWE became stale and the UFC with Ultimate Fighter 1 was extremely interesting and they started showing FREE FIGHTS on Spike which gave UFC the exposure it needed.   

 

Myself and my friends lost complete interest in WWE pretty much right after they bought out WCW and when ECW had folded.   Once the Rock and Steve Austin both left to make movies they simply didn't have any big stars that were interesting at all.   I don't think anyone of those same friends could name 3 wrestlers in the WWE right now (aside from the oldies).     Back in the late 90's  you would see a tonne of people wearing Austin 3:16 shirts and everyone knew the Rock and his one liners.    

 

The problem with the UFC I think was that they just shoved to much down the throat right now...  for the casual people it's impossible for them to keep up or become a more hardcore fan because the roster has expanded to something ridiculous (500 plus?) people and it's very hard to keep tabs on what's all happening.   A few years back when they used to do ppv's that alternated between Pride and them it was much easier for a casual person to follow along since you would always have a few main stays on each card (Liddell, Couture,  GSP, Hughes etc...)   now days on each card even myself who I'd say is pretty hardcore can only recognize maybe half of the people fighting on each card.   It's much to overly saturated. 

 

SPIKE put Ultimate Fighter on TV after RAW.  They needed Vince's okay to do so.  The wrestling lead-in is what made TUF a success and turned many of those RAW fans into UFC fans.  Had Vince veto'ed TUF being on after RAW, there is a good chance that SPIKE doesnt get behind it as much and the ratings arent there.   I also would not under-estimate the appeal of Ken Shamrock to WWE fans.

 

And ofcourse, Brock Lesnar brought a lot of wrestling fans to UFC too.  He also had the benefit of being an "outsider" in the sense the hardcore UFC fans hated him because he was a "WWE guy" coming in and immediately dominating while the "fly by night" fans came to watch him clobber 'real' fighters.

 

UFC is very cognizant of not doing anything that looks fake or scripted and yet their best guys at selling fights and drawing money are guys that either came from wrestling or love wrestling and "get" the point of a promo to draw money.  Dana might have made Brock apologize for his "get on top of my wife" promo, but that was pure gold solidifying him as a heel.  There was talk of Paul Heyman working with UFC fighters on how to cut promos but they are so concerned about being fake.  Jim Ross would likely be a great UFC announcer too, but again, I think there is that fear of doing anything that makes UFC look or sound like WWE (Although I believe Ross recently met with White).

 

UFC runs so many shows because it still makes money to do so.  I think their issue is less over-saturation and more a lack of superstars.  Thats why there was talk last year of Brock going back.  It would have been almost unthinkable for Brock to work WWE and UFC at the same time, but I have no doubt Dana would have taken him back under that scenario because he knows three Brock fights would do unbelievable business (Vince, on the other hand, would likely not let Brock do it, even though he wanted Brock to work WrestleMania when he was under a UFC contract and Dana veto'ed it - Vince also called Dana and pitched that they work together at a Wrestlemania in either a worked match or a real fight, Dana's choice).

[The Unknown Poster]

If it was on Spike, then it was Bellator (they're owned by Spike's parent company Viacom).  They are the biggest MMA company after the UFC but aren't really competition for them.  They have some decent fighters but haven't been able to really create any big stars.  Their most well-known fighters are washed-up UFC guys (Tito Ortiz & Rampage Jackson).

 

If Viacom ever wanted to pull a page out of Ted Turner's playbook & poach some top UFC guys, they might be able to really give the UFC a run for their money.

 

Spike bought Bellator and part of their loyalty to TNA even though it sucks is that they thought a wrestling/MMA package would help both.  But its been pretty dismal.  If there is any truth to the rumours of Viacom considering an offer to WWE for their programming, part of that appeal to them might be using WWE to lead-in to Bellator.  I assume WWE will stay with NBCUniversal but what Viacom does with wrestling will be very interesting.  We are already past the point where they *should* have had an announcement concerning re-upping TNA.  TNA knows this and hired a big PR firm to, among other things, handle TV negotiations.

 

Its possible Viacom has an offer in to WWE and is waiting to see if they win the WWE sweepstakes or not and once NBCU matches, Viacom might go back to TNA.  But Spike has put so much money into trying to get TNA over to no avail that I wonder if they would just get out of the wrestling business.  There was a thought they'd do a "Bellator" deal and buy TNA themselves.  The benefit to Viacom in that scenario would be unlimited access to cheap original programming that they wouldnt 'really' have to pay for since they'd own it.  That is why Sinclair Broadcasting bought the money-losing Ring of Honor promotion and are slowly growing it across their network.

 

Jeff Jarrett, who still owns part of TNA, quit when efforts to buy the promotion with Toby Keith fell through (because Dixie's daddy insisted she stay on).  JJ has a no-compete which disallows him negotiating with Spike but one question that was raised was, if Spike chooses to walk away from TNA, does that allow JJ to negotiate with them.  JJ would have connections there but its not like TNA was pulling better ratings when JJ was running the show (though they did draw better PPV buys).  I have little faith in JJ's new promotion which has a terrible name and has thus far been terrible in marketing itself but if Toby keith is on-board, thats a potential game change as his net-worth and entertainment connections would give Vince a woody.

[Brandon]

I seem to remember watching the special on the history of the UFC and them saying that they produced the show on their own dime and that Spike allowed them to air the program since they were desperate for any programming.

Brock brought in fans but not from WWE promoting it. What's funny is WWE is now using the UFC to try to promote its product by bringing in Brock and trying to implement submissions which look ridiculous in a WWE ring.

[Nasty Nate]

I think if Brock goes back Dana will have to protect him a tad site better than he did the first couple times. The sight of Brock getting his brains beat in by Overeem are a bad image for most inside marks to WWE or UFC....

 

And if he's protected (by taking on inferior opponents or making sure better opponents don't hit Brock in the head (his weak spot) then the cry goes out that UFC is faking up.

 

Dana has one money fight left for GSP so he better use it well. 

 

He's probably got a couple left for Ronda Rousey (his biggest star besides Jon Jones) but what happens when Rousey and Jones go to Hollywood or get mega-money offers from WWE....???