The Ultimate Warrior, Dead at 54

[Brandon]

Yeah UFC isn't very old at all. Nor is it cyclical. Kimbo Slice was not part of the Gracie/Shamrock days either

Kimbo could beat up all the backyard warriors but got killed in UFC.

Many other fighters did much worse then Kimbo and he at least had a win over a recognizable fighter.

He also beat Ray Mercer to a pulp.

[iso_55]

Yeah he won a few fights but they had big plans for the monster & he got beat. 

[Brandon]

Yeah he won a few fights but they had big plans for the monster & he got beat. 

 

No they didn't,   Dana White didn't want Kimbo at all and the only reason he was around was to get a few extra tickets sold.      The UFC had absolutely zero plans for Kimbo to actually do anything in the org.  

[iso_55]

Probably true but that was years ago anyway. Nobody cares anymore about the guy.

[bigg jay]

Kimbo was a no-lose situation for the UFC.  Dana didn't expect much from him other than a pop in the ratings (which is what he got) but if he actually succeeded then they had themselves a new star who already had some fame to him.  When he lost, Dana was able to say that he was just a an internet sensation who didn't have the overall skills needed to hang in MMA.  

 

It's the same reason why they signed James Toney... if he beat Couture, then they have a famous multiple time world boxing champ to boost ratings but when he lost (specifically with how he lost) they said it proved what they were saying about mma vs boxing since day 1.

[The Unknown Poster]

Theres a reason Kimbo was put on Ultimate Fighter - made him earn it and generated some ratings.  If they had any inkling that he'd amount to anything, they'd have protected him, which they didnt.  Out on episode one. 

 

Dana's more open to the freak show signings but a Brock Lesnar is very, very rare.  Dana would have signed Kurt Angle a few years ago if he had been serious (he wasn't, though he likely would have had some success in MMA had it existed in this form when he won his Gold Medal).

[Nasty Nate]

Theres a reason Kimbo was put on Ultimate Fighter - made him earn it and generated some ratings.  If they had any inkling that he'd amount to anything, they'd have protected him, which they didnt.  Out on episode one. 

 

Dana's more open to the freak show signings but a Brock Lesnar is very, very rare.  Dana would have signed Kurt Angle a few years ago if he had been serious (he wasn't, though he likely would have had some success in MMA had it existed in this form when he won his Gold Medal).

Angle would have been great in UFC. Just as good (if not better) a ground wrestler than Lesnar but a lot smarter and he would have learned to avoid and/or deflect strikes - something Lesnar couldn't do. Kurt would probably have countered submissions better but thats just speculation. 

[bigg jay]

 

Theres a reason Kimbo was put on Ultimate Fighter - made him earn it and generated some ratings.  If they had any inkling that he'd amount to anything, they'd have protected him, which they didnt.  Out on episode one. 

 

Dana's more open to the freak show signings but a Brock Lesnar is very, very rare.  Dana would have signed Kurt Angle a few years ago if he had been serious (he wasn't, though he likely would have had some success in MMA had it existed in this form when he won his Gold Medal).

Angle would have been great in UFC. Just as good (if not better) a ground wrestler than Lesnar but a lot smarter and he would have learned to avoid and/or deflect strikes - something Lesnar couldn't do. Kurt would probably have countered submissions better but thats just speculation. 

 

 Daniel Puder would disagree! 

[Nasty Nate]

 

 

Theres a reason Kimbo was put on Ultimate Fighter - made him earn it and generated some ratings.  If they had any inkling that he'd amount to anything, they'd have protected him, which they didnt.  Out on episode one. 

 

Dana's more open to the freak show signings but a Brock Lesnar is very, very rare.  Dana would have signed Kurt Angle a few years ago if he had been serious (he wasn't, though he likely would have had some success in MMA had it existed in this form when he won his Gold Medal).

Angle would have been great in UFC. Just as good (if not better) a ground wrestler than Lesnar but a lot smarter and he would have learned to avoid and/or deflect strikes - something Lesnar couldn't do. Kurt would probably have countered submissions better but thats just speculation. 

 

 Daniel Puder would disagree! 

I'm sure thats one incident Kurt Angle would like to be erased from the memory books!

[The Unknown Poster]

Kurt was working.  Puder wasn't.  There's a big difference.  Kurt is also a freak who would have let Puder rip his arm off and beat him with it before he would have tapped out.

[bigg jay]

It was sarcasm (hence the  ).  Puder definitely took advantage of the situation and I don't blame Angle for not tapping since it was not a straight up fight.  That being said, being too stubborn to tap isn't something new and usually doesn't end well for the guy who refuses to tap.  Most guys like that end up admitting they should have tapped and would do things differently if they could do it over again.  But like I said, in that case, I don't blame him.  I would have been furious if that were me and I doubt I'd be thinking rationally.

 

Also there's no guaranteed that the outcome would have been different .  There have been gold medal wrestlers who have been submitted (and quickly!) before.  

[bigg jay]

One of my greatest regrets is the time I presented an idea to start a Winnipeg-based Canadian "UFC" (long before anyone else in Winnipeg) and I let others convince me thatt focusing on wrestling was the way to go.  Doh!

 

I'd love to hear more about what you had in mind.

 

One of the problems that existed for a nation-wide promotion (and still does to an extent) in the past was that MMA was not legal across Canada.  The Criminal Code of Canada left prize fighting to be a provinicial matter but the wording technically only allowed for boxing.  It was a grey area that was updated with a new bill last year but still left it up to the individual provinces to regulate it.  Previous to that, some provinces (ie Saskatchewan) would not even touch it until the Feds addressed it 1st.  Other provinces came on board recently after extensive lobbying from the UFC (ie Ontario in 2011).

 

The commissions themselves are another story altogether.  Some places (Ontario & BC) are so expensive that unless you are the UFC or Bellator, it's next to impossible to make a profit (even a small one).  Other commissions like Quebec & Edmonton (Alberta has left it up to the individual municipalities to form their own commissions) are notorious for either not following their own rules or creating new ones on the fly.  Saskatchewan is currently setting up their commission so  there still hasn't been pro mma there yet.  I don't know much about the maritimes other than it's not legal in some places (like PEI) and other places (New Brunswick) are also in the process of creating a provincial commission.

 

A mma version of the CFL would be great, and I'm sure other promoters have considered it... I'm just curious as to how you would have gone about it.

[The Unknown Poster]

We definitely would have had issues.

 

Here's the story:

 

At the end of 2001, myself and a partner formed a Pro Wrestling company (eventually called Premier Championship Wrestling).  We pitched it to a local businessman who agreed to finance us for a certain amount of money.  This businessman, John, liked wrestling to a degree (two of his employees were wrestlers) but was much more a fan of UFC.  To the extent that one of our competitors brought Dan Severn in for a wrestling show and John was angry at us for not bringing him in even though Dan was not a big draw as a wrestler.

 

Our "debut" show was March 3 2002 and drew 1700+ fans to the IGAC at the UofM, so it was a big success.  However, our weekly shows were struggling to carve out an audience.  We began planning our next "big show" with the intent to return to IGAC.  We had budgeted what we knew ICGA cost us to rent but one of the people who worked in the office for John's main business, Hank, approached us with the idea to run CanWest (now SHAW) Park.

 

Between March and probably May-ish, John began losing interest in the wrestling company.  This was a good news/bad news scenario.  Good in that he left us alone to do whatever we wanted.  He provided us space at this Pembina HWY offices and full use of his IT services (web development, graphic design etc).  He would really only come around when his wife would do the books for his businesses and wonder what we were spending money on (in most cases, we weren't spending any money - but money would "go missing" from the account that was set up for our use).

 

Anyway, since he was losing interest, John tapped his employee Hank to "keep an eye" on us.  Hank was an older guy, nice guy and smart but slow moving in what was a fast moving industry.  But somehow Hank knew Sam Katz and told us he believed he could get the Ballpark for the same price as IGAC.

 

Long story short on that front - Hank met with Sam several times, frustrating us "Boys, this is how business is done.  You meet three or four times before you even talk business."  It finally came down to Hank assuring us we could use the ballpark for FREE.  Unfortunately, the end result was the ballpark people hosed us and charged us twice what we budgeted for IGAC.  We nearly ended up in court after I told Sammy to shove his settlement "offer".

 

But...in the meantime, we began planning the show, scheduled for July.  Originally, we planned for a main event of Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio at Eddie's suggestion following our March event.  However, both Eddie and Rey signed with WWE soon thereafter.  We decided to go with the Road Warriors as headliners.  John then sat us down and told us not to confirm anything until he thought about whether he wanted to proceed.  Then an opportunity to feature Bret Hart & Roddy Piper on the show arose and that intrigued John.  We had the City interested in presenting Piper with the Key to the City etc.

 

Another Hank contact was a guy involved with a Bartering service who was close with Joe Derkson.  They had been trying to set up an MMA Exhibition show and were having trouble putting it all together.  I believe they had issues with the Boxing Commission and having enough quality fighters.  Their idea was to have Joe fight in an "exhibition" on our show, thus end-running around the commission and sort of dipping their toes into the idea of fight shows. 

 

Some people on our side were concerned about featuring a "real fight" on a "fake fight" show but we understood that it had cross-over appeal (one of our top wrestlers was heavily into MMA training) and we would draw a larger crowd.  We needed the larger crowd because we were running a 7500 seat facility and were ooking to bring in two expensive headliners (Hart & Piper).

 

The barter service was also going to provide us with a bunch of services.  I honestly cant remember why it all fell apart, but something happened to eliminate the Joe fight from the show.  And ofcourse, Bret had his stroke and Piper backed out.  We circled back around to the Road Warriors with Buff Bagwell as the secondary import.  We drew about 1200 people but the show had become so large, convoluted and unwieldy that we lost a ton of money.  John completely pulled out.

 

But before he could, I came up with the idea of branching out into MMA shows.  I wasnt a *huge* UFC fan but I had the strong feeling it was going to be big.  I knew that UFC shows were popular in Winnipeg (to a shocking degree).  My plan was to start a sister promotion called Premier Fighting Championship.  I explained that we'd be on the cutting edge of the sport, getting in before everyone else.  We had a relationship with Joe Derkson and we had people involved in our wrestling who were knowledgable enough to join the management team of PFC and organize shows.  We had the infrastructure (offices, IT services etc) that werent going to cost us anything and we could cross-promote wrestling and MMA.  And I knew John loved UFC and was souring on wrestling.  I thought a locally produced show using local (and near-by talent) with special guests like Dan Severn, Ken Shamrock etc appearing to sign autographs and generate publicity could get us off the ground.

 

I had pitched the idea to my partner prior to our wrestling show flopping and he was not a UFC fan at the time and more or less blew me off saying, lets concentrate on the show.  So after the show when we knew John was ready to walk away, we were trying to come up with ways to keep him "in" and I again came back to the PFC idea.  But I was basically shouted down by others on our team and never did pitch the idea to John (who had the money, resources and interest to make it work if he had wanted to).

 

Who knows what might have happened but Im sure if we had gone down that road, I'd be in the MMA business right now and not the wrestling business.

 

As an aside, Sammy and his people were a pain in the ass to deal with and we never again attempted a show of that size (though my former partner did).  I eventually settled into smaller "big" shows using TNA and ROH headline talent.

[bigg jay]

Thanks for that... good reading!

 

I'm familiar enough with the local wrestling scene ( I have a few different ties to it) that I remember Severn being brought in... and Ernie putting himself over if I remember correctly!  That gong show is a whole different story though! 

 

The local commission back then was a mess too so I'm not suprised there were issues.  When Condello was running shows a few years ago, he ran into issues when he started intermingling wrestling angles during the events (having masked guys "arm wrestling" which ends with one guy going through a table comes to mind).

 

It would have been interesting to see if it would have worked.  There's certainly a need for a local promotion nowadays.  The last promotion to do it regularly was CFC and their promoter seems to have called it quits.

[The Unknown Poster]

I would have been very careful to have a different management "face" and attitude for the Fighting than the wrestling and kept the performers separate aside from "appearances".  But I think there is a lot of cross-over (probably moreso then).  Most wrestling fans over the age of 12 are likely fight fans on some level.  And while most fight fans wont admit it, they are closet wrestling fans now or former.  A lot of fighters are wrestling fans too.

 

We even did "boxing exhibitions" during intermission of our wrestling shows and our wrestling fans really enjoyed them.  Every couple of years I assist a local fight club in putting on a large event and it always draws very very well with grass-roots level marketing.

 

And yes, Ernie put himself over in one of the falls.  If I recall it was best of three falls and Ernie won the second fall of tap out.  He took a lot of flak and rightfully so but I understood his reasoning.  He said he had brought in guys for his wrestlers but he wanted to one selfish thing for himself, which was bring in a guy who was a hero to him and face him in the ring.  I can understand that (I'd never do it myself).  99% of bookers/promoters are like that.  Look at local wrestling.  How many bookers/promoters have worked the import or been champion of their own promotion?  Most, if not all of them.

[Nasty Nate]

Ernie musta been trained by the Transcona Superstar, Walter Shefchyk...... when you talk about a promoter putting himself over on a major talent the first thing that came to my mind was Walter.

[Brandon]

Being ultra close with the cfc.... Local mma is very very hard to pull off while still making a profit.

Night and day difference in challenges and a way higher price tag for putting it on.

This is why you don't see lots of mma feeder leagues for the UFC.

Also the sheer amount of injuries you get in mma compared to wrestling is night and day. Its hard to start something local and keep familiar faces in the cage since usually one injury will end a career.

Not to mention local fighters usually end up losing money even of they get the win. Its hard to make a living In mma unless you are in the UFC.

[bigg jay]

If you're looking to make a living (either as a fighter or promoter) from mma, it's next to impossible. I know of very few fighters (and even less promoters) who are outside the ufc/bellator and are able to do it.

Winnipeg has the lowest cost in the country (at least as far as commission fees go) and promotions still struggle here.

[The Unknown Poster]

Wrestling struggles here too.  Winnipeg likes its wrestling and fighting but mostly at the high end level.

[Brandon]

Well wrestling is simply dead plain and simple, even the shows I went loaded with name talent could barely crack 200 people.

Mma the CFC shows are quite full .. But even a full house is still hard to make the money, way more costs associated with them.

[The Unknown Poster]

The biggest issue with wrestling besides a downturn on popularity is how terribly the local talent treat their industry. Not everyone Ofcourse. But too many guys have the attitude that they'd rather draw no one as long as the competition also draws no one. It's a war of attrition.

From 2005-2008 every wrestler in Winnipeg worked for one promotion (mine) and we drew 200 people to weekly shows and 500 people to "name" shows. It was a good time to be a fan and a wrestler.

But you know what they say about leading horses to water....

[Nasty Nate]

Back in the good ol days (the sixties of course) I remember going to the Alex Turk wrestling shows at the old Winnipeg Auditorium. This is where I first met Bulldog Bob Brown as a foal, getting his sea legs and just observing the matches. I saw all the great ones - Don Leo Jonathan, Killer Kowalski, Vern Gagne, Larry 'The Ax' Henning, Handsome Harley Race, Mad Dog Vachon, Crusher Lisowski, Bruiser Afflis, Wilbur Snyder, Danny Hodge, Crybaby Cannon, Johnny Valentine, Tolos Brothers, Gene Kiniski, The Alaskan Jay York, Reg Park, Little Beaver, many more. The Aud could only hold 1,500 to 1,600 folks. Lots of times the cards, loaded with legends only drew 500 to 700 folks. And the price of a ticket? - anywhere between $4 & $7.. .. I kinda knew it was work even then but must admit Dog Vachon scared the bejeebers out of me after the matches when we waited for the wrestlers to leave the arena!

 

So getting 500 nowadays with only a couple ex-legends on the card. Thats darn good. Biggest problem is ballooning airfares and hotel/meal expenses. You can blow your gate if you have more than a couple "flyers" on your card. 

[iso_55]

My mom (who passed away in 1985) was a real wrestling fan. She loved the AWA & for years Saturday nights at my parents house meant dinner was served & finished before 6 pm so she could watch the weekly AWA show on CKND.

One time my brother took her to the Winnipeg Arena in 1982 when she was in her early 70's. He wasn't even a fan but he knew she enjoyed wrestling so as a gift he bought 2 tickets to the AWA match that day.

They were sitting in the floor seating where the wrestlers walk from the dressing room to the ring. Well, there's my older brother & my mom at the Arena. Bobby Heenan & Nick Bockwinkel are walking to the ring. My brother told me that there was a ton of boos coming from the crowd. My mom hated Heenan because when he was being interviewed by Gene Okerlund he'd always have something disparaging to say about Winnipeg & she couldn't stand it.  

Well, Bobby The Brain & Bockwinkel are playing up their reception from the crowd. My brother said that my mom got so worked up she got out of her seat, ran into the aisle, started yelling "Weasel, Weasel" & belted Heenan with her purse. Bockwinkel swung around with his fist in a boxing pose, saw my mom, said something nasty to her & they continued to walk to the ring. My brother told me for an instant he didn't know what he'd have done if Bockwinkel  had pushed her or something. My brother is all of 5'7 & 145 lbs. When my brother told me what happened I must've laughed for 5 minutes. I said, "Mom did that? Really??? No effin way!!" Then my dad told me his dream always was to be a professional wrestler. My father, all 5'10 & 135 lbs of him. Wow!

I bet a lot of fans must've thought that this was some kind of AWA plant in the crowd. An old granny hitting the bad guy with her purse. But it was real. We tried for years to explain to my mom that wrestling wasn't real. The bumps are too real sometimes as guys get hurt but the matches are planned out. She would have none of that. To her, wrestling was totally real. And she loved it.  

[The Unknown Poster]

When my most recent competitor started up, he would bring in a "name" every month (whereas I was doing it quarterly and making money).  I knew he was doing it because in his mind "if it works for PCW quarterly, then it will be even better monthly" and he thought it would attract my crew (more "names" to work) and fans (more "names" to see).  I asked him one day what his strategy was and his reply was "set us apart from all the other wrestling".  I replied "well, there might be a lot of wrestling but most of it is crap.  There's two promotions with good talent, yours and mine so you're bringing in monthly names as a way to drive me out of business but all you're going to do is kill the business for both of us".

 

Within a few months, we went from all the boys working for me and drawing 500 ppl to "name" shows and 200 to regular shows to him openly bragging if they got 150 people to a "name" show (and my draws fell the same way too).  You can't flood the market.  I tried to explain to him that if he has a name on every show, that people will see that as a "regular" or normal show and instead of popping the big number for a name, those shows will fall to "regular" levels and then when he has to inevitably stop bringing in names, he wont draw at all.  But hey, what did I know?  lol  Some guys would much rather try to take one fan from you then add one fan to themselves.

 

Before deregulation, Tony Condello would bring in some pretty damn good talent.  But he stopped when deregulation occured and every Tom, **** & Harry with a ring came along and started running wrestling.  In my 12 years doing this, I have seen so many come and go.  We're the longest running promotion now.  If everyone was on the same page, things would be very, very good.

 

We even had very good relationships with local media who were happy to come up with ways to get us free pub.  But a series of no-shows impacted their reputation and its very hard to get publicity now.  As one media friend explained to me "I cant run a story about your show.  I need a reason to run a story and then can mention your show in passing."  Usually, general interest.  For example there was a local female athlete who then trained to be a wrestler, so she got a story on herself that then mentioned her "wrestling debut".  Its easy to say wrestling is cyclical (because its true) and its easy to say wrestling isnt "cool" (because to an extent that is true) but the biggest detriment to the success of local wrestling has been the local wrestling business.

[bigg jay]

Do you think part of the drop in numbers is tied to the drop in popularity of the WWE since the Attitude Era?

I always felt the local wrestling scene has always had too many people who would rather be a big fish in a small pond. They could be a mid-card guy on a good show or be a "champion" in front of 30 ten year olds at a community club.