Chevy

[17to85]

Thats what a lot of fans have to realise.  As good as much of our core is (Buff, Wheeler, Ladd, Kane, Little, Bogo, Enstrom), we lack depth.  In time, the "core" will be role players to an extent with guys like Scheif, Trouba, Petan and others putting us over the top.

That's not that good of a core to start with. 

[The Unknown Poster]

A lot of team would love to have Kane, Ladd, Buff, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom and Bogosion so yeah, its a pretty good core.

[17to85]

Lots of teams would like those players, but in terms of a core not many of them have a real high potential. That's the core of a team that finishes middle of the pack at best. 

[Brandon]

It's a good core... Just no superstars among them.

[17to85]

How many teams succeed without a super star or two these days? You got through all the playoff teams and the only one that I can come up with that doesn't have at least one bonafide star player in their core is Columbus, and who knows maybe Johansen develops into one long term. 

 

The real high end core for the Jets should be thought of as Kane, Scheifele and Trouba plus whichever new prospect they get, then the core as mentioned before are just supporting players which they are much more suited too. Of course this requires those young players to live up to their potential which is probably still a couple years from happening. 

[Nasty Nate]

How many teams succeed without a super star or two these days? You got through all the playoff teams and the only one that I can come up with that doesn't have at least one bonafide star player in their core is Columbus, and who knows maybe Johansen develops into one long term. 

 

The real high end core for the Jets should be thought of as Kane, Scheifele and Trouba plus whichever new prospect they get, then the core as mentioned before are just supporting players which they are much more suited too. Of course this requires those young players to live up to their potential which is probably still a couple years from happening. 

I agree. Schiefele and Trouba are on the way up. Kane is really in limbo with his tepid play last couple seasons. 

Wheeler appears ready to step up and be an active captain so possibly Ladd is being shopped.

After the nice young and small core (small in numbers) there's Ladd, Little & Buff, all guys who are very good but all have major weaknesses in their games.

 

The mid portion of the Jets lineup is not even NHL average - I'd say its well below average.

 

The final third of the roster is extremely transient. Crappy is the operative word. Guys like Tangredi, Wright, Thorburn, Palooka, Jokinen, Slater, Setogucci, plus all their d-man after Trouba & Stuart are iffy propositions at best. Jet braintrust is hopin' and prayin' a guy like Clitsome comes back from surgery and contributes to team. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Wheeler is a top line player on any team. Kane is too, this season aside.

Bogo is a top pairing d man on a lot of teams, again, this season aside.

Our Schtick is to be humble but we we do have legit superstars. I expect an 80 point season out of wheeler next year and 30-40 goals for Kane.

[17to85]

 I expect an 80 point season out of wheeler next year

 

 

Career high of 69 points and you think he's going to hit 80 next year? There were only 7 players that hit 80 this season, couple more were 79... You are really over rating Blake Wheeler. Based on his career I'd say expecting mid 60s is a much more realistic expectation because he isn't one of the top 10 scorers in the league. Not like he's some rookie just breaking out, he's been around the block for a while and it's not often guys take a big step forward like you are predicting when they're in their late 20s. 

[sweep the leg]

Ryan Miller. His career looked finished in Buffalo. Lo & behold he goes to St. Louis & he is a different goalie.

He's been worse in St. Louis than he was in Buffalo. Miller's save% was approx 20 points higher in Buffalo than it was in St. Louis in the regular season.

 

I really noticed the dropoff b/c of what a letdown it was for my fantasy team. I was so excited about the trade and then he went and crapped the bed.

[Nasty Nate]

Wheeler might have a chance for 8o pts if he had Crosby or McKinnon feeding him? 

 

Jets won't have an 80 pt player with the current level of the roster.

 

Within a couple years and with the right team chemistry - Schiefele  might be our first 80+ guy.

[17to85]

 

Within a couple years and with the right team chemistry - Schiefele  might be our first 80+ guy.

I don't think Scheifele has that kind of upside either. 80 points is pretty rare these days. Schiefele to me is the guy who'll again get you 60-70 points and play a solid all over game. That's very valuable in todays game, the 80+ point guys are the real special offensive players for the most part. 

[Nasty Nate]

Schiefele might be able to get to 75-80 if he plays 78 to 82 games and doesn't break down or get injured.

 

The problem is the Jets will be so reliant on him for 5 on 5 play plus power-plays 1st unit he can't possibly go a full year without extended slumps or injury. 

 

Our 2nd and 3rd lines have to be exemplary - some offense, yes but more shut-down lines and thats near impossible given the guys on our current roster. They are neither high scorers nor to they seem capable of shut-down play.

[The Unknown Poster]

Without doing any research, Wheeler was a point a player guy from....some point in the season (december?).  He was juggled around too, due to injuries.  Kane-Scheif-Wheeler has the chance to make Wheeler an 80 point guy.  Some guys score in bunches so it doesnt matter but he was a point per game guy long enough that if he doesn't have his typical slow start, he's an 80 point guy.

[17to85]

Go look at Wheelers career, he had 69 points last year, he had a pace for 70 in the lock out year, he had 64 before that, the prior years he looked to be about a 40-45 point player. To me that says he's in his prime now. The jump was from 45 points to 60-70 points and he's not likely to take another jump. 60-70 point player with size is nothing to scoff at but not many players are able to maintain the point a game pace over a whole season that's what seperates the super stars from the good players. 

[The Unknown Poster]

We shall see.  Remember this thread a year from now and we'll see if he was a 70 point player or an 80 point player!

[iso_55]

 

 

So Reimer can improve because he hasn't been a #1 goalie but Pavelec won't because he is. I disagree - Pavelec is the same age as Reimer and to suggest he won't or can't improve because he's played more is silly IMO. It's been suggested Leafs fans use Reimer as a scapegoat. Jets fans do the same thing to Pavelec IMO.

Name some goalies who carry their team over a season and are consistent game in game out.

As for Pavelec, I trust the opinion of Chevy and Maurice over what fans think.

Pavlec has way more experience than Reimer. He has potential to be a lot better while Pavlec has shown he may have plateaued even with more playing time. Goalies that can carry a team during the regular season & playoffs? Current & retired: Tuuka Rask, Mikka Kipprussoff, Carey Price, Patrick Roy, Billy Smith, Gerry Cheevers, Craig Anderson, Ken Dryden, Tony Esposito, Jacques Plante. Ed Giacomin, Henrik Lundqvist & Bernie Parent. To name a few. All these guys played great for a long time.

First let's keep it to current goalies. The game was different, the equipment was bigger, etc for many of the retired players you've mentioned. And when it comes to the Original 6 era, the talent pool wasn't thinned out, etc. Rask has the benefit of playing on one of the best teams in the League - he's a solid goalie but he does not carry that team. Carey Price is a very good goalie who has almost been run out of Montreal by the fans a few times in the past and still has occasional stretches where he can't stop a beach ball (for example, about 2 or 3 weeks before the Olympics this season). Craig Anderson has never carried the Senators in the playoffs - the Senators have won one playoff series with Anderson in goal. I'll agree on Lundqvist.

 

Okay Jacquie, whatever you say. Let's not talk about players before 2005. Even tho there's a HHOF. You can twist it any way you want as you always do anyway. 

[Jacquie]

When I asked I meant current, not past. I thought that was understood from the phrasing. And I said "many", not all of the retired goalies. Methinks you are the one doing the twisting.

[17to85]

We shall see.  Remember this thread a year from now and we'll see if he was a 70 point player or an 80 point player!

to get 80 points you need to be healthy an entire year and score every game, one slump and that's all shot to hell. Guys who cracked 80 points this past season include Crosby, Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry, Kessel, Hall. Wheeler is not in that company when it comes to offence. 

[iso_55]

No Jacquie, I mentioned a bunch of goalies in response to your question who DID carry their teams. Most are SC winners. Guys who have won SC's in the past & some of the good young goalies of today & you cherry pick saying people wanted Price out of Montreal years ago, Tuuka Rask plays on a good team & today's game has changed. Who cares?  As far as Rask goes, every great goalie who won SC's was a great goalie in their own right who played on great teams in front of them. I've also given you an example of a young goalie in Calgary who didn't look good (Giguerre) & was jettisoned by the Flames & went on to a 20 year career in the NHL & will probably be in the HHOF himself someday. I compared Giguerre to Reimer which you pooh poohed.  I don't see you giving any valid argument to support Pavlec. Not one. Give me a discussion here with an actual take. So yeah, I'm not surprised you twist things around..

[iso_55]

Some more goalies (who were actually great & played on great teams, poor them) & carried their teams: Terry Sawchuk, Gump Worsley, Bill Durnan, Johnny Bower & Glenn Hall. All Stanley Cup winners. Some carried their teams & never won like Gilles Villeneuve & Ed Giacomin in New York, Rogie Vachon in Los Angeles (although he did win a couple of SC in Montreal backing up Worsley & later Dryden) & a guy like John Davidson in St. Louis. Eras have nothing to do with it as these guys won in the eras they played. That's all that counts. Oh yeah & as far as different eras go.... Do the goalies of today have to face a Stan Mikita or Jacques Lemaire wrist shot? Or a Bobby Hull slap shot not wearing a mask or with flimsier equipment than today's goalies? Or to get hit in the bare face by a deflected shot? How much courage did that take?

[Jacquie]

No Jacquie, I mentioned a bunch of goalies in response to your question who DID carry their teams.

Actually I said "who can", not "did".

As for Price, it wasn't years ago - it was within the past 2-3 seasons. As for Rask, the Bruins could have any NHL goalie in net and they would still be a #3 team.

[iso_55]

So, in your world you'd penalize a great goalie who happens to play for a great team by saying his play isn't that important? Like team management never planned for that to happen when they drafted or traded for him? So, somehow then Ken Dryden's 5 Stanley Cups are diminished because he played on a great team over someone else on another team? Same with Patrick Roy in Montreal & Colorado? Roy is recent enough for you, isn't he? He did play during the first decade of this century.

That's like saying in football that a great qb who wins multiple championships & are great players in their own right like a Joe Montana, Anthony Calvillo or Ricky Ray doesn't matter as it's the team around them that was great. I don't necessarily disagree at times in certain situations like  when the Ravens won the SB in 2001 with basically a backup qb getting them there. But he may have fit the system in Baltimore & had  great players surrounding him but what did that qb do after as a pro with other teams? Nothing as he was mediocre. Great goalies & qbs may be the first or the last piece of the puzzle. Ordinary goalies or qbs don't win multiple championships. They make their teams even better. 

[Jacquie]

I said no such thing so stop trying to twist my words. I was specifically talking about Rask - not making a generalization and you know it. I said Rask is a solid goalie but he does NOT carry the Bruins. 

[17to85]

I said no such thing so stop trying to twist my words. I was specifically talking about Rask - not making a generalization and you know it. I said Rask is a solid goalie but he does NOT carry the Bruins. 

But I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Bruins could have any goaltender and still be fine. Rask is a hell of a goaltender and I think he can carry a team. The Bruins aren't supermen, teams can and do outplay them, but Rask can stand tall and bail them out as well. 

[sweep the leg]

 

I said no such thing so stop trying to twist my words. I was specifically talking about Rask - not making a generalization and you know it. I said Rask is a solid goalie but he does NOT carry the Bruins. 

But I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Bruins could have any goaltender and still be fine. Rask is a hell of a goaltender and I think he can carry a team. The Bruins aren't supermen, teams can and do outplay them, but Rask can stand tall and bail them out as well. 

 

Look at the #'s Johnson has put up this season in Boston. Either he's a great goalie too, or Boston really is that good.